Noob needs advice

F

Fuggle

New member
I've got some good quality acoustic guitars that I want to do some home recording with, and create a Youtube channel. I bought a Neumann KM184 because I heard it is a good microphone for this purpose. My problem is that this microphone has so much top end. My guitars are very crisp and clear. This microphone seems to exaggerate the clarity of my guitars and the lower frequencies are not prominent at all. The recorded sound is just too tinny. I tried tweaking the balance in Ableton but I can't get it right. I think I need a microphone with more bass response. So maybe the TLM-103 would be a better microphone for me, or even the U-87. However I would need to be sure of the likely outcome before spending that sort of money. So before doing anything further I thought I would come in here and ask if anyone has an opinion on this, or if any of you have a suggestion for an alternative microphone.

I'm just a noob. So be gentle with me.
 
Might not be the mic at issue. Placement? Environment? The balance in recording acoustic resonant instruments often require adjustment and experimentation of mic placement. Room also plays a significant role. Often when beginning to record acoustics, many confuse what their ears hear when playing with what the mic hears in a different placement. Some use an over the shoulder placement to more represent what they are hearing. I'd experiment a lot more before deciding it's the microphone.
 
Folkcafe is right. Mic placement can make a tremendous difference in the sound. The KM184 has been used very successfully on countless recording.

Most of us struggle at first to reconcile the difference between what we hear when playing vs what we hear on the recording. It might be good if you can get a friend to play and compare what you hear from the front vs what you hear when playing the same guitar. Play with mic placement with another person playing and see if you can find a sound you feel is more balanced.

Maybe you could post a short (30-40 seconds) example recording in 320K mp3. Then we can try to hear what you are hearing.
 

KM 184 (Series 180) - Miniature Microphone

The KM 184 is a state-of-the-art small diaphragm condenser microphone with a uniform, frequency-independent cardioid polar pattern. Its very natural, transparent sound with very low self-noise and high SPL capability have made the KM 184 a worldwide stage and studio standard for many...
en-de.neumann.com en-de.neumann.com

Now, I don't normally put much store in mic speccs but Neumann I trust! (the mic also won a sound on sound award in 2000)

The graph shows the LF response to be only about 5dB down at 100Hz (and the guitar only goes to 80Hz) the 'presence peak' typical of almost all SDCs is a modest 5dB ish at ~8kHz and then a gentle roll off. I don't have a KM184 but that does NOT look like a "tinny,thin, shrill" microphone to me! So, what is wrong?

The first, VERY unlikely possibility is that you have a faulty sample. Easily checked by a voice comparison with any gash dynamic you have around, if perchance you don't have any other mic you can pickup a very serviceable dynamic for around $25 Behringer XM8500. Even one of the Neewer/BM800 LDCs will sound good enough to prove the KM out. (EVERYONE should have a spare mic, spare XLR cable and a digital test meter IMO!) N.B. I say a "vocal test" because very close, 25mm speech will all but eliminate the room from the equation. It will also eliminate any possible, but again very unlikely, problems with the pre amp.

That leaves the room, the guitar and then technique. My son records Bach on a classical guitar with a variety of mics. He is potless and dad almost (mainly due to supporting him) so he has only very budget mics. A Mackie LDC, a pair of Behringer C2 and a Citronics USB L*DC. He gets a very acceptable sound considering the extreme cheapness of his kit. One thing we did push the boat out for? A MOTU M4. Super bit o kit.

So, make sure the mic/pre is not the fault then listen to the experts here about recording techniques because there I leave you. Just a lowly valve amp tech.

*not really "L" actually about 20mm but it really does do a very decent job.

Forgot, son also has an SM57 and a FetHead , not sure if he has used that on guitar, will ask.

Dave.
 
I once had a customer who complained a mic was faulty. He said it was tinny and bright. I had a listen. My conclusion - "that sir, is treble"

Modern DAWs including ableton have very controllable EQ, so in the case of good condensers - just gently roll it off. My guess is your EQ adjustments have been too narrow - you want a gentle slope starting at around 4-5KHz, gradually dropping just a few dB at the top. Nothing savage. Have a listen to this video - two small condensers, one brighter than the other - maybe see if your eq can cope with this. The Neumann you have is a lovely mic, very well respected. As others have mentioned - the brightness could be your system and/or your space. Perhaps you are just unfamiliar with the sound of a clean and bright mic, or maybe your room makes it too much? One thing is certain - swapping a decent condenser for another decent condenser is very unlikely to change things.
 
Thank you all for your comprehensive replies!

I was expecting some advice about which microphone to try next. Everything is packed away at the moment. So I can't easily try anything. I think the room is OK. It's a carpeted attic room with sloping sides and wood chip wallpaper on the walls. There are almost no vertical surfaces to reflect the sound and I get the impression that the texture of the woodchip diffuses the sound quite well.

I think the bottom line from all of your comments is that I do not need to spend more money. If I learn to use my equipment properly I should be able to get the results that I am looking for.

I've been using the built in 'EQ Eight' equalizer in Ableton. Are there any advantages to buying one of the various proprietary plug-ins that are available?

Ian.
 
Woodchip? Well, that's an interesting idea for a diffuser. EQ Eight is a pretty straightforward EQ, just a shame in all the internet content about it, it gets fixated on narrow band cut and boost. Few people seem to use it for anything remotely gentle - just absolute slices off bottom or top and then lots of frequency narrow, but high boost cut scenarios - you just want a gentle roll off. I think it can do that, but I've never tried. If it can't, then it's probably better to use a wider, but fewer band EQ.

The best advice will come from an example of what you didn't like - if you post a clip of the recording you made that is too much up the top, we can see if we share the opinion. We might, but equally we may say - sounds fine to me, pointing to your monitoring, or somebody might detect your room causing the issue. Either way without a clip, we are just guessing. Sloping walls and wood chip say "uncontrolled" to me - or words like live, reflective, boxy, hollow - that's from the description you gave.
 
Fuggle said:
Thank you all for your comprehensive replies!

I was expecting some advice about which microphone to try next. Everything is packed away at the moment. So I can't easily try anything. I think the room is OK. It's a carpeted attic room with sloping sides and wood chip wallpaper on the walls. There are almost no vertical surfaces to reflect the sound and I get the impression that the texture of the woodchip diffuses the sound quite well.

I think the bottom line from all of your comments is that I do not need to spend more money. If I learn to use my equipment properly I should be able to get the results that I am looking for.

I've been using the built in 'EQ Eight' equalizer in Ableton. Are there any advantages to buying one of the various proprietary plug-ins that are available?

Ian.
Click to expand...

As someone with an attic studio, let me just say that it is not just vertical surfaces that reflect sound and that the variation in depths between the high and low points in the woodchip is likely not enough to be actually doing anything close to what would be considered diffusion. That all said.....

You are going to place the mic at some distance away from the guitar. The room is going to come into the equation to some extent. Try also moving where you are recording as with the angle of the ceilings, you are going to have more modes and reflections to contend with than a box room. Remember, you have extra corners with the angles. Every untreated space is going to have peaks and nulls. Those can adversely or positively affect your recordings. Back in the old days, our studio's literally had egg crates on the wall. Rooms were often terrible. So you learned both mic placement for the instrument and also instrument placement in the room.
 
Assuming there is nothing wrong with the mic, you should be able to get a decent recording, though if it's a small space, the sound of that space can intrude, the further the mic is from the guitar.

One problem we have, initially, when recording our own playing is much like the first time we hear our own voice played back. We simply have never heard that sound from the listener's (and/or microphone's) perspective. With the acoustic guitar, you have a large box that is vibrating low frequencies right against your body, but those same frequencies really require quite a bit more energy to travel and be heard/picked up than the higher ones. So, my first thought is to try recording with the microphone closer to where your ears are, and see how that sounds. (I don't recommend that location for a single mic setup! It's just to get a frame of reference for how your specific microphone "hears" in your space.)

A large condenser mic is not going to necessarily capture more low frequency content from your guitar. I've used both, and most of the time I stick with the smaller ones these days.

Dimensions of your space, how you set up to record, mic distance and angle to the guitar, etc., all enter in to how it records.
 
Son has sent me a very short clip he has dashed off at my request in case anyone is interested?

SM57 pointed at the neck/body join 50cm away>FetHead>M4. Sounds fair to me and a better dynamic, better still a ribbon and the FetHead would sound better still?
He is in a bedsit in Le Havre no acoustic treatment at all.

Just thought. A steel strung would of course be brighter and that was a dropped D tuning.

Dave.
 

Attachments

  • Sm57 with FETHEAD(01.mp3
    1.2 MB
I have used a 57 on a Taylor and got great results. Oddly enough by using Shure's suggestion for mic placemnet from the paperwork that comes with any new in the box 57.

IIRC it was something along the lines of 1-5" from the guitar fretboard and move along the length until you are happy with the frequency response. I think I ended up with the mic pointed at around the third fret about 4" away, Sounds crazy but it was very balanced without being screechy. It does depend on the guitar though.

As for the Neumann in an attic I would try putting a blanket overhead. We do need to hear a sample but the room reflections could certainly cause comb filtering and in turn make the recorded sound unpleasant.
 
"IIRC it was something along the lines of 1-5" from the guitar fretboard and move along the length until you are happy with the frequency response. I think I ended up with the mic pointed at around the third fret about 4" away, Sounds crazy but it was very balanced without being screechy. It does depend on the guitar though."

Fine I am sure G' on a steel stringer for certain songs but my son was recording single picked notes on a nylon strung classical acoustic. Getting a 57 close enough for a decent S/N was virtually impossible without clouting it!

Note, he was doing this with a UMC204D and I hasten to add that the mic pre amp on that interface is really very good for the price. WAAAY better than we got for 3X the money ten years ago and the AI is easily good enough for normal speech at 3" or so into a dynamic. AFAIK he has not tried the SM57 straight into the M4. Would be better I am sure but a quiet guitar, foot or so away with a dynamic is a challenge for all but THE most high end pre amps.

Hence I sent him the Mackie EM-91C LDC which solved the problem then, because he wanted to dabble with stereo, a pair of C2s.

Dave.
 
My first rule. Listen. Second rule, look in the box and pick the favourite. If it sounds good, waste no more time. If it doesn’t pick the second favourite. Repeat until you are happy.

rule are always made to be broken. So when laziness means one mic is to hand and the old favourite is a walk to the store room, always try the one you have in case you get a surprise.
 
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