I'd like to ask for some advice and/or your experience regarding drum recording.

[araz]

The room we have to work with is really not the perfect room for recording, but since we've been there for a while now I've had the chance to experiment and get some good sounds with my overhead pair (Rode NT4) and the mid-side room microphones (Rode NT2-A working with its figure 8 pattern and an Avantone CK-1 with the Hyper-Cardiod capsule on).

What I need help with are the close-miking techniques. Mostly on the kick and the snare. I get a flat/dead sound from the close microphones, but the sound heard in the room is huge and nice (the sound recorded in the room is a decent sound as well).
I put an AKG D112 at the beaters of the kick, and a Beta 52A inside the kick pointed to where the shell meets the skin.
On the snare I have a Shure Beta 56 on top and an SM57 on the bottom.

What can you guys recommend? Tightening the drum heads a bit? Microphone placement? A condenser mic tossed in with the dynamic(s) to create a brighter sound? Thank you!

 

[RAMI]

The room we have to work with is really not the perfect room for recording, but since we've been there for a while now I've had the chance to experiment and get some good sounds with my overhead pair (Rode NT4) and the mid-side room microphones (Rode NT2-A working with its figure 8 pattern and an Avantone CK-1 with the Hyper-Cardiod capsule on).

What I need help with are the close-miking techniques. Mostly on the kick and the snare. I get a flat/dead sound from the close microphones, but the sound heard in the room is huge and nice (the sound recorded in the room is a decent sound as well).
I put an AKG D112 at the beaters of the kick, and a Beta 52A inside the kick pointed to where the shell meets the skin.
On the snare I have a Shure Beta 56 on top and an SM57 on the bottom.

What can you guys recommend? Tightening the drum heads a bit? Microphone placement? A condenser mic tossed in with the dynamic(s) to create a brighter sound? Thank you!

As soon as you have 2 mics facing each other, like top and bottom snare mic, you have to flip the polarity on one of them or else they'll be cancelling each other out to a large degree. If you haven't done that already, this could be the reason you're getting a flat/dead sound from the close mics.

On a sort of side note, do you really think you need to double mic the kik and snare?

 

[araz]

I've definitely inverted the phase on one of the microphones for any drum with two microphones facing each other. On the kick drum sometimes it works better not to invert one; they're not facing directly at each other and inverting one of them gives me a thinner sound....I always go with the phase-relationship that provides the biggest sound.

On a sort of side note, do you really think you need to double mic the kik and snare?

Well, it really helps for getting a better sound from the kick. I used to have one mic inside, but adding a microphone to the beaters adds brightness to the attack which works well with our music (prog-rock). As for the snare, my microphone placement/selection is still experimental. I have a Sterling Audio ST31 and a Sennheiser E906 that I'm going to try out soon. I just need to liven up the drums. It's a big set, I believe it's a fusion set of some sort, a Pork Pie. The drums sound great, and the heads for all except the kick have been recently replaced. They just record deader/flatter than expected.

 

[RAMI]

I've definitely inverted the phase on one of the microphones for any drum with two microphones facing each other.

OK, cool. Didn't mean to insult your intelligence or anything. Just thought I'd mention it because not everyone knows that.

On the kick drum sometimes it works better not to invert one

Yeah, sometimes flipping the polarity doesn't make it sound better.

You might want to look into time-aligning the 2 tracks also. Polarity and phase are 2 different things. Polarity is what we're dealing with when 2 mics face each other. Phase is time-based. So, the polarity might be right, but they may still be out of phase if one mic is capturing the signal slightly before the other. Again, not preaching, just mentioning it in case.

 

[araz]

no insult taken, dude!

I'll look into the time-aligning. Since I have a pair of overhead channels and a pair of room mic channels being recorded along with the close-microphones, I'm going for a bit of mis-alignment....but, I'll make sure to check time-aligning the double-channels on the kick and snare.
Cubase 6.5 has some amazing new time/quantize/warp features that make multi-track drum editing much easier than it used to be.

The thing is, all of this is post-recording. I'm still getting dead skin sounds on the drums, even though the drums sound GREAT in the room (to the ear). The sound being recorded is dull. I'm going in to do some tests today, I'll see if I can export some files and let you have a listen.

 

[Mo Facta]

GOD! NOOOO!

It is BAD advice to tell somebody new to recording to start time aligning! Forget that shit, man. Focus on the fundamentals first.

Firstly, two kick drum mikes on the kick drum is a good idea if the mikes supply two different but complimentary sounds - typically a low and high sound. In that scenario, one is used for the attack and one for the sustain/low end. That is why you commonly find a Shure 91 and a B52 used in this technique. Since the B52 and the D112 are LDD's you're going to get overlaps in frequency response and thus you might find it difficult to strike a complimentary balance between the two. I would say ditch one and find a good position for the one you choose. The Beta 52 has a more tailored sound with lots of attack, scooped mids and huge bottoms, while the D112 is flatter, which allows you to shape the tone later. I prefer the D112 for this reason. I don't want to start with "a sound", I want to sculpt my own. There are exceptions to this whole idea of course, like using a LDD inside the drum, while using a LDC, like a u4 outside the kick drum at varying distances. It's all based on what sound you're going for and if you know how to use the tools at your disposal to get there.

Before I touch on your close mikes dilemma, it is important to understand that the better the source, the better sound. Simply put, get new drum heads and/or tune your drums to sound their best. This is paramount. There is no magical studio trickery to get them to sound better if they sound bad to begin with. This is important point number one.

Now, the thing to remember with close mikes is that they are supplementing the OVERHEAD and ROOM mikes (if you have them). Not the other way round. Try not to think of the overheads as merely capturing the cymbals. Try and see them as the starting point to getting a good overall balance of the kit. This will help eliminate the problems of dullness you are facing. I start with the overheads for this reason when tracking. If you can strike a good balance with the overheads with a good stereo image and centered kick and snare, you're already half way there. Make this your next priority after getting the drums sounding good on their own.

Remember: You can not possible know where to put the mikes until you listen to them. You can't visually spot a good position, so you'll have to experiment and having a couple of helping friends around can make this easier. Otherwise, you're going to have make an adjustment and listen back each time.

Some tips.

I usually put a foam guard around the top snare mike to minimize bleed from the hi hat and cymbals. You can make one with a styrofoam cup lined with padding. It's super simple and easy and will save you some headache when you mix. Another thing to be aware of the proximity effect. Bass response is boosted the closer you get to the drum but so is boxy attack. This contributes to a fuzzy sound so try and get your close mikes at a distance that strikes a balance between attack and the proximity effect. I like my tom mikes a little higher than an inch or two, for instance.

Hope that helps.

Cheers

 

[bouldersoundguy]

GOD! NOOOO!

It is BAD advice to tell somebody new to recording to start time aligning! Forget that shit, man. Focus on the fundamentals first.

I have to agree, fundamentals first.

And if it sounds good in the room put a mic there.

 

[Bobbsy]

The Beta 52A and D112 are reasonably similar mics. Since you have one of them in the drum for the thump, I might try something with a bit more top end for the "click" of the beater. I'd also play with the placing aiming, especially of the mic in the drum--little changes can make a big difference. If it was me, I'd also try just outside the drum hole pointed in...and then experiment with farther in/farther out.

Placement can be everything with drum mics...and small moves can make a big difference.

 

[roffli]

Errr, just a thing. Have you considered the bass drum itself ? I mean, if the drum head is very loose or poorly mounted, the sound produced by the drum (that's even before it's picked up by the mics) can be poor and flat. It might simply not produce the frequencies you're after.
The fact that it sounds good in the room is no reason for not considering this aspect. The reverb and the characteristics of the room might enrich the tone of the bass drum.

I'd suggest a testing session, just to understand better your kick drum:
- put the AD112 in the kick, pretty much in the middle, pointing at 3" away from the center of the drum head
- put another mic in the room as you're used to
- prep your preamps the usual way and then roll off the gain a bit, just to give you some headroom
- record the kick with different settings on the drum head, from very loose to very tight, with or without muffling, and even different types of muffling (foam, cushions, etc)
- hear the differences and see if some settings did some improvements

Note 1:Some people might be afraid of a kick that would resonate too much but if that's the only setting that gives you the sound you want, you can always gate it afterwards.
Note 2: it's always good and often forgotten to remove the drum head from time to time, clean it up along with the shell and put it back together. Drummers (I am one) are lazy
Note 3: regarding muffling, you gotta know that the frequencies generated by a drum head are higher as you get closer to the shell, lower in the center. Thus, how you muffle the kick may impact the overall tone, depending on where and how much the muffling touches the drum head. Test !

Good luck.

 

[RAMI]

GOD! NOOOO!

It is BAD advice to tell somebody new to recording to start time aligning! Forget that shit, man. Focus on the fundamentals first.

I would agree that it would be bad advice to give to a beginner, but where in his post does he say he's "new to recording" as you put it? Are we to always just assume that everyone knows less than us and is too stupid to be given POSSIBLE suggestions only reserved for self-appointed experts like ourselves?

We're trying to find answers to a problem. The problem happens to be a snare mic'ed from top and bottom. The first possible solution was to invert the polarity. Since that was already done and not the solution, and he insists the drum sounds good in the room, I don't think it's a bad suggestion to at least take a look at the alignment and see if it helps. Nobody said it's THE solution.

 

[Mo Facta]

Ok. He may not be a complete noob (he did say he was using M/S), but the fundamentals still apply and I just happen to disagree with time aligning right off the bat as a first advice.

Ya know, more often than not when I find myself in the middle of some sort of last resort, drastic measure shit like time aligning or major editing, or drum replacement or whatever the hell it is, it usually dawns on me that the best I can hope for is mediocre. And that's what I usually get. A recording requiring all that clownfuckery just to get it to sound acceptable is self-defeating and should just be what it is...either a bad recording or a recording of a bad performance.

It is WAY more worthwhile to exercise the fundamental principles as a priority.

Cheers

 

[Dogbreath]

My first thought was to just simplify the set up.

Go ahead and tune your drums first (if ya haven't)
Ditch 1 of the mics for the kick and for the snare.
Play around with the placement of each mic and record each placement. Chances are you're gonna get real close with one.

Bring in the other mics as ya need em. If ya need em.

Personally, if I was gonna double mic my kick (which I do on occassion) I'd go with a Beta 52 and say...a 57. Try the 52 up close inside, pull it back, put it outside...try a bunch of different placements.

Anyway, try simplifying it all first and add as needed.
just my thoughts...

 

[RAMI]

Ok. He may not be a complete noob (he did say he was using M/S), but the fundamentals still apply and I just happen to disagree with time aligning right off the bat as a first advice.

Ya know, more often than not when I find myself in the middle of some sort of last resort, drastic measure shit like time aligning or major editing, or drum replacement or whatever the hell it is, it usually dawns on me that the best I can hope for is mediocre. And that's what I usually get. A recording requiring all that clownfuckery just to get it to sound acceptable is self-defeating and should just be what it is...either a bad recording or a recording of a bad performance.

It is WAY more worthwhile to exercise the fundamental principles as a priority.

Cheers

I don't disagree with sticking to the fundamentals first and foremost. I agree with everything you said, in fact. I even questioned why he's double-micing his snare and kik. But once somebody gives their reasoning for doing something, whether I agree or not, I'll go with it and give them suggestions based on what they insist on doing

I think he got pretty sound advice from everyone in this thread. If all that fails, he can see if they're out of phase and MAYBE time-aligning will end up helping.

Just for the record, I don't time-align my tracks. Or, I should say, I don't depend on it. I also scoff at the skullfuckery (love that word ) that so many people resort to. It never leads to anything better than mediocre, as you said.

 

[Pahtcub]

If you can't get a good sound from an SM57 on the snare top and Beta 52 in the kick hole then you need to work on drum tuning, the sound should be pretty decent with just that, if not you're dealing with bigger originating problems. Positioning within relative space only makes slight differences so I'd make sure you were getting something half decent with "standard" drum mic placements then work on multi mics and positioning changes.

Polishing a turd that you think is a diamond is so frustrating.

 

[EVT]

What happens if you just try recording te snare alone and the kick alone? Do they sound like they do in the room? Or just the overheads alone? Room mic alone? Just wondering. if you like how it sounds in the room, then I would think the drums are tuned to how you like them to sound, so it's just a matter of capturing that sound you hear and like. Usually I break it down when I have issues, so maybe trying fewer mics or one at a time and then adding more as it's working out, tweaking till they work our and maybe you'll even decide that you like the results of the recording better with fewer mics. I know I've seen some videos wirh people who just like to use 4 mics, (overheads, kick and snare) and get nice recordings.
Also if you like the way it sounds in the actual room maybe pulling the mics a little further away might help to capture that vibe.
So much to consider when recording drums . I always enjoy it