Scream vocal processing

[thebigcheese]

Personally, I agree with everything Glen said. So chill, people. Everyone has some valid points, so stop getting all offended by everything. Sheesh.

As mattr suggested, compression and a little distortion are good things to do. For one of my band's songs, we wanted to have him screaming (sort of) for the last chorus. It sounded alright, but it was missing something. So I compressed it to even out the volume and make all of it loud, then added a send to a track with a distortion plug-in on it for a little something else in the background. I think it came out really well.

As Glen suggested, it might still be necessary to retrack. If he's moving away from the mic while singing, it's not just volume that's going to be the issue. There are other things that happen that shape our perception of distance. If he is noticeably inconsistent now, then your best option is to start by retracking, then move on to mattr's suggestions. And frankly, why was he holding the mic while tracking? I don't care if he is screaming, that just has "problem take" written all over it. Tell him not to do that.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

it's not just volume that's going to be the issue.

That's exactly the point (and one BTW learned from EXPERIENCE), that a weak scream brought up to the same volume as a strong scream will be *louder*, but is still going to *sound* like a weaker scream. The voice changes. Compression and distortion and all those gizmos are fine for developing the "hardcore sound", and the stuff mattr suggested is fine for that. But it's likely that it won't fix the OP's main problem all that well.

May I point to the thread just started today by someone else asking for how to get "level vocals", and check out Massive Master's response. That's all I'm saying.

@Toe: let's hear your helpful answers to MY questions. How is it that when I ask questions I get every few actual responses from hotheads like you. You're all over bitching about other people's responses but offer none of your own. I have asked SEVERAL questions here that I'd love to hear your answers to.

G.

 

[legionserial]

Why do the vast majority of newbs find it more enjoyable or somehow intrinsically better to minimize the amount of time playing and honing their performance in the studio and maximize the amount of time they spend twiddling knobs in the control room?

Because they know full well that a good performance requires them to do a bit of their own hard work. Unfortunately they are also under the misapprehension that there is formula to compensate for this in mixing using computers and such.

Of course, we know that isn't the case, which makes all the more amusing those threads where someone insists that there must be a formula and that it's some secret that the 'professionals' are keeping form them.

Like I say, I agree with your sentiments. Please don't mistake me as advocating cutting corners or turd polishing. I wish I did...tracking would be a hell of a lot quicker.

 

[bigtoe]

Gee Glen, I answered your question:

"And why, for God's sake, is it such a crime to ask these questions or to call "bull...loney" ( ) on them?"

and i thought i was very helpful in answering. hothead? no i'm just shooting the poo here...much like yourself.

i'm not defending the op nor what i think were some good answers...but he certainly didn't seem to be asking anything out of line. answering him with an "obvious hammer" (re track the vocals? GENIUS!) while pointing out what a professional you are and how everytime you try to show someone the light you get crucified?

i call bullshit on that. why? because you asked why.

I think the op is doing what an audio engineer is paid to do: figure it out. if it needs to be taken back to formula - well maybe it will come to that...but throwing in the towel before trying anything and asking for better tracks?

lame.

i don't have all the chops in the book by a long shot...as an engineer i'm an average journeyman at best....but i work on tracks tracked by lesser humans or lesser conditions and just by bands who might not be super pro and i make something out of them. sometimes it takes a hell of a lot of firepower just to get the thing to suck a lot less. it's called "the job."

closing, i don't answer most of your other questions because they're most often hypothetical and designed to get the answer you want and honestly man, you usually just talk way too much.

Mike

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

i don't have all the chops in the book by a long shot...as an engineer i'm an average journeyman at best....but i work on tracks tracked by lesser humans or lesser conditions and just by bands who might not be super pro and i make something out of them. sometimes it takes a hell of a lot of firepower just to get the thing to suck a lot less. it's called "the job."

Do your clients ever wonder why that stuff winds up shrink wrapped and under the bed (to use your own quote)? Is "the job" to take their money just to give them something to keep their Playboys company down there?

When working with newbs who know even less about the recording racket than you do, there is *absolutely nothing wrong* with recommending to them that they punch up their tracks a bit first because, despite what they see on Star Trek and CSI: Peoria, there is only so much magic that computers can do. The worst that can happen - assuming you have the temperament for the job and explain it to them properly - is that they will say they cannot, for whatever excuse they give, and you'll just be back where you started 30 second ago. No harm, no foul.

But it, IMHonestO, is doing them a disservice to just take pay (or even do for free) to do a second-best job without at least explaining and recommending the first best option to them first. "The job" is to take care of the client in the best way you know how. If you tried it, IME you'd be surprised at just how often it actually works.

i don't answer most of your other questions because they're most often hypothetical and designed to get the answer you want and honestly man, you usually just talk way too much.

There is nothing hypothetical about my questions. They are legitimite questions for which I *think* I understand the answers to, but the answers just don't make any sense. So maybe I am missing something, alright? Since you are so much more knowledgeable than I, and since all I do is blow shit up everybody's skirt, I was really hoping you could correct me and eduamacate me - along with everyone else, Sergeant.

 

[thebigcheese]

i'm not defending the op nor what i think were some good answers...but he certainly didn't seem to be asking anything out of line. answering him with an "obvious hammer" (re track the vocals? GENIUS!) while pointing out what a professional you are and how everytime you try to show someone the light you get crucified?

I don't see what's wrong with recommending the "obvious hammer" if it hasn't already been mentioned. Some people just don't understand that retracking is the easiest, usually quickest way to fix things. It's taken me a good long time to finally accept that rather than trying to fix everything on my computer. Some people just need that constant reminder. So chill.

 

[bigtoe]

cheese - it's not only the hammer - it's the way it's swung.

glen- i cannot see anywhere in the opp nor the dude who gave a pretty great reply/info that they are newbs or that they didn't think about re tracking.

yes i've been there. yes i've asked clients to retrack - it happens everytime i track and a lot of times a few weeks after the track has been looked at to see if it has legs. your assumption that i haven't is your problem in how you see others on this board. if retracking doesn't happen and they want to keep it...i work on it...also - if i get stuff to mix - i'll point it out...but i'm certainly not going to cause a problem between the band and the tracking engineer while doing it.

i see no other questions i can answer. list them for me in a way where i don't have to read about your dorky star trek references i'd be happy to give my take on em.

one last thing, Glen. since you're so into questioning people's experience... i just don't think you're a working music recording engineer...not full time, not part time. i have some non hypthetical, legitimate and actual questions for ya:

1) when was the last time you tracked a full band? we're talking drums, bass, guitar...the usual pornography.

2) have you ever recorded a hardcore band with scream vocals?

Mike

 

[NYMorningstar]

And I know you don't like all 'us kids with our toys' who evidently have no understanding of theory or technique as we go about our stereotypical ways with our overuse of hard panning, drastic timing and pitch correction, drum replacement and excessive track layering... .

Exactly what I mean about stereotyping. In your eyes, everyone young who has an interest in recording heavy-ish music has to be the same.

You introduced stereotyping in this thread and turned it against Glen. You should drop this teenage desire to become a sound engineer and study law

 

[mattr]

You introduced stereotyping in this thread and turned it against Glen. You should drop this teenage desire to become a sound engineer and study law

I've tried to stay out of this thread once the sh*t hit the fan about my "this is just home recording comment", but I feel I need to step back in at this point.

I'm actually at college doing three three science A-levels and hope to study a degree in medicine. I've never had overinflated or misguided ambitions. I've never expressed a desire to become a pro sound-engineer, but I'd say I'm much better at it than all the people my age doing Music Tech AS who think they'll go and work in Hollywood as a result.


It seems that people are coming into this thread and latching onto a few quotes which have been pulled out of context. If you read the longer posts you'll find that everyone makes good points in their arguments which I have read, understood and taken onboard. This thread has been ready to die and be forgotten about several times, only to be resurrected by people skim-reading a few of the posts and wanting to throw their $0.02 into the mix.

As Glen correctly pointed out a few posts back, I did mention in my original post that I knew people would scold me for the whole 'heavy processing' stuff, but I was only answering what the original poster's question and didn't know it would get so personal that we would start questioning each others' basic intelligence.

Enough is enough. Sorry to Glen for flipping and sorry for any trouble caused.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Alright, Bigtoe refuses to answer my questions. That's OK, because I knew he had no answers to them, I just had to confirm that here.

It's amazing how one can carry a grudge against me for two years simply because he's pissed that I took the .net version of his domain name. (I didn't even know he was a member of this board when I took that name, BTW). You'd think he'd be pleased about that because the number of folks visiting his website by accident when they are looking for mine is most likely greater than the number he gets going there on purpose.

He of course is going to deny all this and keep quoting unwanted and long-since banned ghosts from the past. That kind of toxic bullshit is the last thing we need more of here. Those who have been around this board for a while KNOW that I have provided at least as much helpful, kind and patient information to newbs and non-newbs alike here as anyone else, and that if I the nasty hater that Toe and and a small handful of people who I rub the wrong way claim I am, that I wouldn't bother even hanging here, let alone contributing here.

OK, I over-reacted to a small part of one of the posts. I apologized then and I apologize now. I should have handled that better, legion serial was absolutely right about that.

But my continued presence on this thread is doing no one any good as I have attracted an annoying fly that won;t go away. So I will myself go away.

But so he won;t accuse me of dodging questions the way he does, first here's my reply to his questions:

I have said all along that I am a mixing engineer and editor more than a tracking engineer. The last time I tracked a full hard core-style band was 98-99. The last time I tracked a full band of any genre was a couple of years ago.

The last time I mixed a full band was a couple of months ago, the last time a mastered/re-mastered) a full band project was last year. The last time I finished mixing and editing a full video was about two years ago.

My *full time* job for the last few years has been a 24/7 nursemaid to my now-87-yr-old mother with more physical problems than you can probably count, asshole. She has a back that's broken and fused in two places, a leaky heart valve with mitral (sp?) fibrulation, is unable to stand or walk for more than a few seconds or feet, and has the wits of your average 87-yr-old person, etc. etc. etc. Why do you think I have so much time to spend here and working on my website, huh? Because I am eating through my god damn savings account being unable to have a full-time job because I am the last member of my f*cking family outside of my mom, and I have to be here to take care of her instead of out making real money. I have had to turn down interviews or job offers from as far away as Seattle, Atlanta and the Philly area because of my obligations here.

So I have decided to start the IRN website both to keep up my computer development skills and keep my audio knowledge fresh - as well of course as offer this stuff to the newbs which you claim I hate - as something I can do here from home between the occasional audio and video mix and editing jobs without having to leave my mother for any amount of time. I don't want pity or any of that crap; I have kept this information off this board ever since I got here because it has been nobody's business but mine. But I am tired of having to defend myself and my actions just because of a few with no character judgement skills.

As far as the rest of my previous bio/resume - which is available in several different threads here over the years as well as on my website, and which I am getting tired of defending to the likes of you - there is not a single detail in it that is false or an exaggeration of any type. Christ, it's not like I have ever claimed to be George f*ing Martin or anything like that; my bio is actually pretty lame compared to many, and I'll be the first to admit it. But I *have* been doing this kind of stuff for thirty years and *have* managed to learn and remember a thing or two in that time. If you don't like that, that's not my problem.

So if you have a problem with any of that, Mike, you can kiss my f*ing ass, because I am damn tired of having to defend myself to the likes of a wannabe ice cram truck driver like you.

To everyone else here, I apologize for the rant, but there are a small handful of people who have been dogging my ass for a couple of years now, and I have had enough of it.

G.

 

[Steve Henningsgard]

Two things...


#1: SHUT UP AND PUT YOUR DICKS AWAY. YOU'RE NOT HELPING ANYONE. I respect the majority of the people arguing, and know it's simply not worth it to keep this particular discussion going. It's simply making everyone involved look/sound amateurish and retarded.

#2: Regardless of quality of performance, scream vocals *always* need to be compressed until they cry and beg you to stop. We're talking 100:1 ratios at -a.shit.ton dB. Make the audio so confused it doesn't know what to do and starts distorting. That's where the fun starts. I usually eq most everything below ~200hz (depends on tracking and such: it's essentially there to take out the poopy mud), and give 'em a little boost somewhere between 2k & 4k, again, depending on the vocalist/mic/etc.

If these things can't help, do 'em anyway and say it's the best you could do. If re-tracking isn't an option (which is only true if the vocalist is dead, btw. If he/she is any good at what he/she does, he/she could come in and knock out the whole album/ep/whatever in a weekend, with doubles.), that's all you can do. Cut your losses, tell the original "engineer" that there's nothing you can do and move on.

 

[bigtoe]

i agree with the young man from minneapolis. my apologies. however, i've got some lies throw here i have to respond to.

glen -

1) i have no clue what you're talking about regarding a domain...just another lie to change the subject to to cover up the fact you're an inexperienced IT guy?

check out my .com page and see whether i give a rats ass about the web. pretty slick yahoo starter page. eh? i obviously really care about a domain name and my "web presence."

idiot.

i never had a disagreement about anything about that or anything else with you.

just bullshit.

2) what are your questions? I'll answer them. i have no idea what they are. list em.

3) answer my questions regarding you rexperience. i don't think you record music at all. i think you're a sad old web or video guy in chicago who is online 24/7. whenever the issue of whether you're an audio engineer comes up you change the subject.

everyone else? carry on and my apologies for the spew. this glen guy is a total fraud.

my email: mike at independentrecording.com for hate mail. understandible.

laters.
Mike

 

[Steve Henningsgard]

Let me re-iterate:

#1: SHUT UP AND PUT YOUR DICKS AWAY. YOU'RE NOT HELPING ANYONE.

No last shots, no continuing, fucking done now. We have PM's for PMS fights (ironic, I know). Nobody is reading through your posts but the two/three of you involved at this point anyway, so posting it publicly is doing NOTHING to help anyone.

 

[thebigcheese]

Two things...


#1: SHUT UP AND PUT YOUR DICKS AWAY. YOU'RE NOT HELPING ANYONE. I respect the majority of the people arguing, and know it's simply not worth it to keep this particular discussion going. It's simply making everyone involved look/sound amateurish and retarded.

#2: Regardless of quality of performance, scream vocals *always* need to be compressed until they cry and beg you to stop. We're talking 100:1 ratios at -a.shit.ton dB. Make the audio so confused it doesn't know what to do and starts distorting. That's where the fun starts. I usually eq most everything below ~200hz (depends on tracking and such: it's essentially there to take out the poopy mud), and give 'em a little boost somewhere between 2k & 4k, again, depending on the vocalist/mic/etc.

If these things can't help, do 'em anyway and say it's the best you could do. If re-tracking isn't an option (which is only true if the vocalist is dead, btw. If he/she is any good at what he/she does, he/she could come in and knock out the whole album/ep/whatever in a weekend, with doubles.), that's all you can do. Cut your losses, tell the original "engineer" that there's nothing you can do and move on.

But what about... just kidding

I forgot to mention that when I send to a distortion track, I also EQ like crazy. I think I actually just set it up so it looked like a triangle with the point in the middle (thus cutting out a lot of the lows and highs). Keep in mind that this is only for the distortion track, not the main vocal. In most cases, that would probably sound pretty dumb by itself, but it helps out when you add it behind the clean vocals.

 

[Steve Henningsgard]

But what about... just kidding

I forgot to mention that when I send to a distortion track, I also EQ like crazy. I think I actually just set it up so it looked like a triangle with the point in the middle (thus cutting out a lot of the lows and highs). Keep in mind that this is only for the distortion track, not the main vocal. In most cases, that would probably sound pretty dumb by itself, but it helps out when you add it behind the clean vocals.

I've found that's generally a good idea with any doubled vocal track, as it keeps the sibilance nice and clean and on only one track.

 

[mattr]

I've found that's generally a good idea with any doubled vocal track, as it keeps the sibilance nice and clean and on only one track.

Yes, we can all make clever digs/comments that we think make us sound intelligent.
I thought you were just telling everyone to "put their dicks away". So much for ending the thread.

Can a mod lock this?

 

[bigtoe]

Let me re-iterate:

#1: SHUT UP AND PUT YOUR DICKS AWAY. YOU'RE NOT HELPING ANYONE.

No last shots, no continuing, fucking done now. We have PM's for PMS fights (ironic, I know). Nobody is reading through your posts but the two/three of you involved at this point anyway, so posting it publicly is doing NOTHING to help anyone.

bite me!

i have a right to post in my defense when someone lies about me and i have right to finish a discussion when called out on. i appreciate your post and said as much but kindly now - clam up.

i'm not going to have an argument invented about me and a domain name by some wannabe clown withour responding to it.

if no one is reading - so be it!

mattr if you're so uncomfortable about this type of stuff...just stay out then and my apologies. glen is a fraud. it's about time someone gave him a bit of his own medicine.

if you do not want to read it. move on.

if HR wants to lock it, delete it or ban it - feel free. it's blip on the radar to most. i'll take responsibility for it.

i've posted two questions to glen. i think he should answer them so we can see what kind of experience he has in this regard. i mean these 'newbs' - they have to learn somewhere...and why, for God's sake, is it such a crime to ask these questions or to call "bull...loney" ( ) on them?

Mike

 

[Chili]

Closed.

Yeah, it's getting out of hand.

Closed.