Phase Question??

[SouthSIDE Glen]

QUESTION:

When im having phase issues, i just flip the phase, and then zoom in very tight on my waves (for example top and bottom snare mics) and i nudge the one wave slightly until it matches the other one. after doing this i can actually hear a fatter snare with much more beef to it.

A lot depends upon the exact situation, but in most cases you shouldn't need to actually flip the phase first. For top and bottom snare, yeah it's the thing to do, but otherwise it's mainly a question of nudging one wave until the dominant attacks line up.

so my question is, dose nudging the one wave and lining it up with the other actually work well? or am i just hearing things?

You're not hearing things - or, rather, you are hearing things, but you're hearing the right things .

But, like any technique or tool, I would not give it the blanket statement of saying it *always* works well. It really all depends on the nature of the waves themselves and how much bleed there is form how many different sources with different delays. There may be times, just for example, where optimizing the snare means muddying the toms or vice versa, because the nature of the delays is such where one cannot align them both at the same time. In such cases you just have to trust your ear as to what sounds best.

G.

 

[dean1964]

remember the 3 to 1 rule.

Two mics, spaced apart three times the distance from the source. While this does not correct phase issues, it does introduce a difference in amplitude of the the relative out of phase signals, effectively masking them, in theory.

This is the application of the inverse square law, which tells us there is a 6dB ( If i'm remembering correctly) reduction in SPL for every doubling of distance.

In practice its not always that simple. I find a good trick to checking phase is to reverse the polarity of one of the two lines in question and adjusting the placement until they cancel hard, or I get a big deal comb-filtered sound, then hit the switch again, bring the two lines as in phase as possible.

The real trick is knowing what comb-filtering sounds like. Learn that by duplicating a track in your favorite DAW, using pink noise is fun for this, and start nudging the track a millisecond at a time and note the difference that start showing up. If you can use a delay plug in, you can bypass it and A/B the in and out of phase sounds.

Nothing like a little ear training. In fact, often play with pink noise with various filters, delays etc, to keep the ears in shape. But I'm a geek.

 

[bohunk06]

Ok, with all this in mind it leads me to another questions... and this may be preference for each engineer. But when recording drums, do you delete/mute tracks that aren't being used? In other words, if I record my drums, would I mute the toms everywhere that they are not being hit to avoid phase problems? Some may do this anyways. I personally like all the bleed into other mics. But if it will help avoid phase issues, I may start muting those tracks when not in use. Thoughts?

 

[RAMI]

remember the 3 to 1 rule.

Two mics, spaced apart three times the distance from the source.

....here we go.....................

 

[dean1964]

if I record my drums, would I mute the toms everywhere that they are not being hit to avoid phase problems? Some may do this anyways. I personally like all the bleed into other mics. But if it will help avoid phase issues, I may start muting those tracks when not in use. Thoughts?

Maybe. It really depends on the situation. Some people like to cut out anything that does not contribute to the tune. Say you have three tom tracks, some will cut out all the dead space, on every track individually. Others will cut the space leaving all tom tracks open on any individual tom hit. Some, wont cut out dead space at all, but I find the cumulative noise floor can be a bad thing Its really a matter of taste and what is working on that particular cut.

RAMI..where are we going?

 

[RAMI]

RAMI..where are we going?

I'm staying right here. It's freezing outside.

But, the 3 to 1 rule only applies to micing more than one source.

 

[NYMorningstar]

remember the 3 to 1 rule.

Two mics, spaced apart three times the distance from the source. While this does not correct phase issues, it does introduce a difference in amplitude of the the relative out of phase signals, effectively masking them, in theory.

The 3:1 rule is for micing two sources to minimize the pickup from one mic from interfering with the pickup from the other which would introduce phase issues. You could also use cardioid mics in violation of the rule if you angle them correctly.

 

[mattr]

How do you layer a guitar track exactly?

Record it several times with the guitarist playing tightly. I would say that is an ok use of the word 'layer'[/QUOTE]

Wouldn't the distance being the other side of the room make this a non-issue?

Sound is annoyingly slow. The other side of a small room may not introduce a noticable delay, but even the smallest of delays can change the sound. That's not to say that room mics are bad because (in good rooms) they aren't, but it was just a way to demonstrate how mic placement has an effect on this stuff.

 

[RAMI]

Speed is annoyingly slow.

I like that!

 

[NYMorningstar]

Speed is annoyingly slow.

That's what I keep telling my buddy that I run marathons with about his.

 

[mattr]

I like that!

Hahaa, I meant sound

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Hahaa, I meant sound

Speed is annoyingly sound???





j/k

G.

 

[Supercreep]

Great thread, guys. Thanks.

 

[TeyshaBlue]

When I'm dealing with a particularly difficult mic situation, small amounts cancellation can help clean up a particular track.

I've got a buddy with a Gibson harp guitar. It's a real challenge because the tonality of the instrument itself is pretty boxy. My fav solution is a two mic arrangement feeding seperate tracks in Sonar. When mixing, I'll invert the phase on one track and slowly feed it into the mix. The cancellation is most noticeable in the lower mids (my target area) and really helps open the mids up. Of course, too much and these frequencies try to dissappear on ya. But a little applied cancellation can be a useful tool.