Double Tracking - Phase shift?

[steppingstone]

I like to double track quite a bit. The back of my mic pre-amp has a phase shift button. Is it advisable to change the phase when I double track vocals or acoustic guitars?

 

[Waffleness]

Depending on your setup and how you position the mics it can change. For example left/right setups vary from XY setups.

To be honest, you can read all the advice you want, but I would just record it both ways and see how it sounds. It proves to yourself how different it can be. Maybe thats just me, i like to play with stuff

 

[Sonixx]

Double Track - Do you mean two mics or two performances?

Two Mics - If one is polarity swapped and you're mixing to one track then switch for the best sound. If to two tracks, it should not matter. You can always invert one after tracked. Flipping one mic's phase will do little to correct any relative phase difference due to mic positioning/distance.

Two performances - It doesn't matter.

 

[steppingstone]

Yea, two performances. I understand that I should "try it and listen," but I wondered if there is a hard/fast "rule" that I should know. Cheers.

 

[Sonixx]

the polarity switch will only matter with signals that are phase coherent... i.e. coming from the same source at the same time.

two performances are just that and have no phase coherency.

 

[RAMI]

I like to double track quite a bit. The back of my mic pre-amp has a phase shift button. Is it advisable to change the phase when I double track vocals or acoustic guitars?

It's a good question and something I always wondered. I guess we got our answers. If it's 2 different takes, it's not neccassarry.

 

[mixsit]

There was an interesting not quite on topic bit (somewhere) about phasy sound on tight doubled tracks -the upshot being where one tight unison pair is most likely to naturally sound phasy' three or more will average out better.
Nothing to do with polarity or mic/time distance, just natural random in-and-out.

 

[Audi0Fr3ak]

Phase problems

Best way to avoid phase problems if you are truly worried is the three to one rule, make sure no two mics are within three times the distance as the closer mic. I'm not quite sure what kind of double micing you are refering to, but thats the best advice i can give you.

 

[RAMI]

Best way to avoid phase problems if you are truly worried is the three to one rule, make sure no two mics are within three times the distance as the closer mic. I'm not quite sure what kind of double micing you are refering to, but thats the best advice i can give you.

It was already established we're talking about doing 2 takes of the same part.

 

[Audi0Fr3ak]

Oops

Well then my comment was completely unnessecery^.^ teaches me to skim before talking. I'll be sure to read all complete responses before replying

 

[RAMI]

Well then my comment was completely unnessecery^.^ teaches me to skim before talking. I'll be sure to read all complete responses before replying

Nah, your info was accurate. No problem there.

Just wanted to let you know that it didn't apply in this case.

 

[NYMorningstar]

Best way to avoid phase problems if you are truly worried is the three to one rule, make sure no two mics are within three times the distance as the closer mic. I'm not quite sure what kind of double micing you are refering to, but thats the best advice i can give you.

Here we go again...

The 3:1 rule is for two sources and used to eliminate bleed.

What you are talking about is an attempt to minimize comb filtering which is done best by using your ears and not some lame rule.

 

[guido #2]

Here we go again...

The 3:1 rule is for two sources and used to eliminate bleed.

What you are talking about is an attempt to minimize comb filtering which is done best by using your ears and not some lame rule.

Far out
Care to elaborate...?

Here are some pretty good articles on using the "lame" 3:1 rule
http://www.recordingeq.com/articles/321eq.html
http://www.crownaudio.com/mic_web/tips/mictip6.htm
http://www.sweetwater.com/expert-center/glossary/t--3:1Rule
But they won't help you as you are recording you tracks as separate takes. Try panning them apart a bit, not so close together in the stereo field. That should help minimize any accidental comb filtering that you might be experiencing. Also, make sure the vocalist is at a steady and constant distance from the mic- and make sure there are no reflective surfaces closer to the mic than the vocalist (3:1). And....

 

[NYMorningstar]

Far out
Care to elaborate...?

Here are some pretty good articles on using the "lame" 3:1 rule
http://www.recordingeq.com/articles/321eq.html
http://www.crownaudio.com/mic_web/tips/mictip6.htm
http://www.sweetwater.com/expert-center/glossary/t--3:1Rule
But they won't help you as you are recording you tracks as separate takes. Try panning them apart a bit, not so close together in the stereo field. That should help minimize any accidental comb filtering that you might be experiencing. Also, make sure the vocalist is at a steady and constant distance from the mic- and make sure there are no reflective surfaces closer to the mic than the vocalist (3:1). And....

You're right, it's not the rule that is lame, it's the way it's used.

You cannot eliminate the comb filtering when you use the rule on a single source, that is lame. The sweetwater article is lame.
You are always going to have phase cancellations with multiple mics on a single source and it's best to use your ears to decide which frequencies. It works similar to EQing.


The 3:1 rule is for micing more than one source to reduce bleed, not phase cancellations. If you have 2 sources, 2 mics, with a mic 1' away from each source then you need to to have a minimum of 3' between the sources and mics to reduce the bleed enough to where it isn't a factor, a concern for down the line processing. It doesn't have to be 3' either, it can be 4', 5' 6'...etc.

 

[mixsit]

You're right, it's not the rule that is lame, it's the way it's used.

You cannot eliminate the comb filtering when you use the rule on a single source, that is lame. The sweetwater article is lame.

Yes, good call. Lame in that they put 'single source as the primary use (the 3:1 as the 'stereo mic technique' presumably) but don't even specify 'side to side' and not near/far..?
Without that little tid bit of info...

 

[steppingstone]

Here's why I asked...

Thanks for establishing that "2 different takes don't require changing the phase." Like I said, I double track acoustic guitars. I've been getting some really distracting "harmonic" effects. I wonder if it's my room- lots of bouncing off the walls- I have no acoustic treatments.

 

[Sonixx]

do you only hear distracting "harmonic" effects when the two tracks are mixed or in only one track.

describe these effects?

care to post short clips of a mixed version and two separate as tracked.

 

[mixsit]

Thanks for establishing that "2 different takes don't require changing the phase." Like I said, I double track acoustic guitars. I've been getting some really distracting effects. I wonder if it's my room- lots of bouncing off the walls- I have no acoustic treatments.

"harmonic"? Depending on what you're getting.. If it's sounding like resonances', hot eq' spots? it is also possible room tone build ups and/or hard reflection cancellations adding up. Get thee some fiberglass (or even padding) gobos going. They're cheap to make, moveable, you'll use em long term, and even if you don't 'fix the whole room, just the option to control/or let in strong early reflections and room tone' is well worth the effort (very little cost DIY!) ...opens up a ton of options.

 

[NYMorningstar]

Another simple option is to stand a hardshell guitar case on end on a chair or table and place your mic/s inside it pointing out. It gives an awesome studio like sound and it's free.

 

[steppingstone]

"If it's sounding like resonances', hot eq' spots?"

RESONANCES!! Bet that's what it is. Sure, I'd like to let anyone give it a listen. Where- and how- would I post the mp3? Also, do AIF files work?