Were all a bunch of songwriters with nothing to say

K

Krystof01

New member
I was just thinking that there aren't that many new threads on this songwriters forum and when they are the content is somewhat limited.

Is it that songwriting is so hard to explain (as opposed to somwthing like playing the guitar or recording)?

Writing songs should really be the goal of a any true musicain in the long run yet I also find that there is very little information (good, clear and relevant information) on the internet relating to it. It surely has to be that there are no real rules and also I suppose you don't need to spend hours practicing (well that's up for debate as a new thread (ie anyone can do it)).

If you want to keep your your presonal life and feelings personal, never write a song.

I'm just thinking out loud. Any response welcome as always, even if to tell me I'm a fuckin' .................................... (as always).
 
I think that is an important point - the only rule is that there are no rules.

Sure, there seems to be a formula for "hit writing" but as far as just writing a song - anything goes, just ask yoko or John Cage (sp?) or Roy Orbison.

I have always been fascinated with people who want to learn how to write songs. You know, the people that just wake up one day and say "I want to be a songwriter." The reason it fascinates me is because I always just thought it was something inside that burned, the need to express, the need to be creative - not a career choice.

I think when too much emphasis is placed on "How to's" and "Don't do's" the essence of the song is lost - although it may sell a million records. I'm not one of these purist people who thinks that a good song can't be built from blueprint, I just don't tend to enjoy that kind of assembly line stuff. And although I do own a few songwriting books, I don't understand how a person with songs in their soul needs to read a book to learn how it should be expressed.

Just my 2 cents - forgive me, I just had coffee.
 
The problem with this forum is that few of these folks are actually songwriters. They're mostly concerned with recording, the gear, toys, etc. The only reason I ever began recording was to try to get my songs heard, cut, performed without dealing with demo studios and their cost. I'll admit that I love the actual recording process, but I've never lost sight of the real purpose.
The technology has allowed just about anyone to program and record "music", but layering tracks over a drum sequencer doesn't make one a songwriter! All of the good songwriters I've known were like skitzophrenics(sic), hearing voices, melodies and lyrics in their heads that they can't block out. What made them great writers was the ability to get the melodies into a form that people could relate to.
I'm always trying to write "commercially viable" songs, but that determination only comes after the song is written. (I like this, but does it have any commercial value?) The only way to tell is to play the song live to an audience. The most well-received songs I've written were ones I had little faith in commercially. It's never failed to amaze me.
You're right about the need to create. Brad. There is absolutely nothing that compares to someone telling you that one of your songs really touched them or made them think. You can't learn how to do it - you either do it or you don't.
To paraphrase Paul Atreides from Dune.......Long Live The Writers!


Bob
 
Buffalo Bob:

I can agree to an extent that an audience will tell you what a good song is. On the other hand, the audience isn't without it's own biases. It's important to take into account that pandering to an audience can quickly pigeonhole you. In a strictly entertainment sense, audiences are generally happy with one-trick ponies. They can have you for this one feeling or style they like and somebody else for another.

I think this plays into the whole mystique of the rock star--a lot of the really good ones are those who are brash enough to tell the audience "I am the real thing." Inside he or she may crave the audience's approval, but the image is more one of letting the audience in on a good thing rather than offering something up for their tastes. The artist should lead and the audience follow. Am I making any sense? I'm certainly not disagreeing with what you've siad, just trying to get into the dialogue.
 
it may be true that one cannot learn songwriting (you either have the gift or not, I'd say), but I think one can learn to write better songs.
my new songs are a lot better than my old ones, and can't even be compared to my first ones (which are kind of crap).
maybe there are songwriters out there who write hit songs from the very beginning and don't improve (or even can't keep their standards up), but I once read a quoting (don't know who said it):
the content of it was: write some 50 songs and throw them away, and maybe then you will be able to write really good ones.

I also read that Lennon and McCartney wrote at the start of the Beatles bunches of songs, but only one of them was actually cut ("Love me do", I think). so maybe their first ones were also crap (I'd love to hear them, though).

U2's Bono once said that it is easy to create sadness or melancholy in the audience, but it's far more difficult to create joy.
maybe one can learn (over time) to create this kind of joy that makes the audience sing along and really have a good time.
 
little to say

There are 2 reasons to write songs. the first being to express something deeply felt that may be hard to get to by any other means. It's like emotional therapy, you dig around within yourself
and put words on feelings. Joy, sadness, whatever. By examining this stuff, we dump it out so that we reveal ourselves to ourselves
and gain some degree of self knowledge and acceptance.
The second reason to write is to make money. Then we are crerating an entertainment product, nothing more. This can be a lot of fun, even theraputic for the writer, but the point is that it's for sale. You could say that reason #1 is a form of masturbation and reason#2 is a form of whoring. In a sense, both are entertainment products. If you are going to masturbate, you owe it to yourself to get all the pleasure out of it that you can. If you are going to be a whore and you want to be a SUCCESFUL whore, then you owe the customer the best time you can give them for his (her) money. Hope this helps you to understand some aspect of the essential nature of being a songwriter
By the way , I guess he was right, we don't have much to say.........writeon....Chazba
 
Lazyboy-
I may be a bit biased on this, because I started working in bands at the tender age of 15, and therefore come from a performance mind-set. What I was trying to say is that anyone can call himself/herself a "songwriter", but until you lay it on the line in front of an audience, or an A&R man, publisher, etc.;and risk the negative impact of rejection, you are, as Chazba so elegantly put it, 'masturbating'.
And Chazba - the concept of commercial success being somehow like "whoring" is a tired old cop-out used by those who lack the talent or drive to succeed in the music business. There are considerably more than 2 reasons to write. In my experience, the good ones write 1st because they have to (the voices again),and the great ones write because they love to.
Smirky -
You're right on with Bono's quote- creating joy and excitement in an audience is the opitome of songwriting, but it takes years to get the chops to actually do that. You've got to take the time to learn from audiences what they respond to, and you can't do that sitting in front of a computer.

Bob
 
I can't believe I said that...

Bob and everyone else...
You're right about the difference between writers and great writers......
I come from a background of performance, and I have written a few successful commercials and some regional hits. I guess I was in a sarcastic mood, oh well...putting aside my poor choice of anology, what I said still goes. Lots of people write cause they think it's cool, to say 'I'm a writer" The best write because they are driven to write, to share their view of the world. Maybe someone will start a thread called "Songwriting as....."
writeon....chazba
 
I can't believe I said that...

Bob and everyone else...
You're right about the difference between writers and great writers......
I come from a background of performance, and I have written a few successful commercials and some regional hits. I guess I was in a sarcastic mood, oh well...putting aside my poor choice of anology, what I said still goes. Lots of people write cause they think it's cool, to say 'I'm a writer" The best write because they are driven to write, to share their view of the world. Maybe someone will start a thread called "Songwriting as....."
writeon....chazba
 
I think that BB is right, that songwriting is only a secondary focus of this site. But there are many of us that write songs, and it would be nice if we could use this forum more.

The general discussions I see here about what processes people go through when they write songs can be interesting, but tend to be too theoretical. I would like to see people share and discuss actual songs!

Now, two or three times when I posted songs on the MP3 Mixing Clinic (where I get plenty of feedback), I also posted here, asking for feedback from a songwriting point of view, and got no response. Like I was breaking the rules or something.

So why don't we agree to post and discuss songs on this forum? I promise to respond to the next one I see here...
 
Good idea LI:

Actually I see no reason not to just post the mp3 link in this forum. If you're just in the early demo stages, you may not want to throw it up in the mixing forum. Someday I'm gonna get around to posting something...

Okay--I just realized that you've already said that. I'm more interested in feedback from a songwriting perspective anyway. Okay someone else go first!
 
hell, all the mp3's I posted are in early demo stage....if u havent, u may have GAD....Gear Anxiety Disorder....you are afraid people are gonna listen and say "OMG, I cant believe he posted that...i believe I heard some clipping....and is that a POD?...LOSER....and God have mercy on your soul for using a drum machine..."
 
Just a thought to consider.

I think the reason that so many of our first attempts are, to quote "crap", is that music is a language of expression that just like learning to read or speak it expands as our vocabulary does.
When we all started out we knew very little of this language and therefore our work reflected that. Which is why I have studied music, so instead of just having one or two words to describe something, I would have many ways of expressing a particular phrase.

If our written and spoken language had not continued to expand our ability to continue learning would have stopped with it and we may well not of ever gone to the moon or anywhere else. Our language would have become what is refered t as "dead", which is a term applied to "latin". The same is true for musicians who do not continue to expand thier understanding of this language. It is very easy to dismiss the study of theory and that it has no role in creativity. I have found this to be unture.

There is not any writer past or present who has not suffered from "writers block". But that is a part of the creative process and I have found ways or techniques to help break that cycle. The end results sometimes isn't worth the effort. But that comes with the teritory.

In what I have studied of the classical masters, I have had the distinct impression that they knew the language of music. They knew the tonal range and the timbre of the instruments they worked with. Which is what I think happens to us, and is what makes the difference in our early work opposed to our latter.

We all get into ruts have writers block and get thoroughly pissed at times when it comes to music, and I don't think anyone here would be doing any of this if we didn't love it.

Excuse my rambling, I know I had a point I was going to get to eventualy. I'll type at all of you latter.

Keep the faith Ozlee:eek: :confused: :rolleyes: :cool:
 
There's no question about it. It helps writers to read and study literature and it helps songwriters to listen and to and study music.
 
write an emotion not a song.

Here is one of mine for you thoughts and review.



here are my thoughts on this song: The message is simple, Be nice to your wife. Pretty lame ay! The trick is to say it in a different way. In this case, Some day you will lose the ability to right your wrongs (death). What will the end results of your actions be (can I take you forward in time). This song is not written from my point of view but instead from the point of view of what I would consider an average guy. Not saying I'm not average, I just don't cheat on my wife. I think male or female we could all put our selves in this guys place. That is very important for a song I think. This song was written music & lyrics all at once.
I think that on mellow songs that is the norm for me. On heavy songs it can go either way music or lyrics first but I never make it to far into the music before the lyrics are added. The lyrics shape the song for me. If I have lyrics I like alot I am not going to sacrifice them for the music.

Here is the story & lyrics as cut of my page at mp3



A catchy song with a lot to say. We have had an awsome response to it!

CD none (single)
Credits Written By: David Epperly ©2000

Story Behind the Song
This song is written from the point of view of a dead man or woman who now trapped in endless thought recounts his life and regrets.
We all will lose the ability to right our wrongs in the end.

Lyrics
Always feel there's more that I could do
Laying in this coffin next to you
Did we have to die, In front of passers by
On a Sunday afternoon

Always feel there's more that I could say
as we lay and pass the years away
Do I ever more than pacify you
I'd love to give you more, now that I'm beside you

Chorus:
Some things don't change
And in my life I found it strange
That we could care much for each other
But in our time we never bother

Waiting in the dark to feel your touch
the walls between us always where too much
But did you ever reach and then
Pull back for lack of speaking
Or did I ever speak too much

Nothing in the past can be undone
Or you know you'd be the only one
But now I can't explain
And I guess then that I couldn't refrain and
I put a burden on our love

Repeat chorus:

Repeat first half of first verse:

Post replys if you like. Tell me how it sucks what ever.

You can listen to it or check out other songs at
www.mp3.com/freudian_slip1
 
HEAVY DUTY subject. In just reading the words I understand the direction of the song. The lyrics absent the music make it a little hard for me to establish the meter of the written word. There are a few places I think the lyrics could use some work so that your voice stays more focused for someone reading just the lyrics. The subject matter is truly a very strong emotion. It may very well be that time will focus and strengthen your voice even more, and calling this piece finished may be premature, it could be days, months or even years away, for this very poignant sentiment. This may not be anything of importance to someone listening to your music and I certainly do not mean you should change a thing if the lyrics work in that context, especially since I've not yet heard your song.

I hope that the spirit in which I offer this suggestion comes through and not something else totally unintended. I'll give your song a listen and let you know what I think.


Keep the Faith, Ozlee :)
 
Thanks Ozlee fro your comments

You're right about it not being done. The mix you will hear is rough and I am at the moment working on another version.
I would sugest that if you have a good connection you download the mp3. The file is 3mbs but there is a world of difference.
you will have to pardone the vocal mix. I am working with a live mic at the moment. I need to invest about $500.00 to cure that but you will get the Idea.

Thanks again.

depperly@crpud.net
www.mp3.com/freudian_slip1
 
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