That "tone deafness" discussion...

kickingtone

New member
Curiosity got me searching and I found this video. I thought that I'd cherry-pick a couple of points that I agree with (there are many that I don't, and I was irritated by some of the trite interruptions from the host).

10:36+ "There is so much more to music than just pitch".

The amusic dude makes the point that I guessed at in another thread, that there are various attributes of sound, and different people may rank them differently. While most of us may place "pitch" at the top of the list, other people may relegate pitch in favour of rhythm, timbre or some other dynamic.



The amusic also claims that the audition piece by William Hung..

9:55+ (above)..was analyzed and is ON KEY. Yet, many people would casually observe that he is singing OFF KEY or FLAT. I find it quite interesting how they attempt to quantify what is wrong with Hung's singing (but I was not impressed by the HUGE cultural bias in their supposedly scientific testing regime.)

Well, I've never watched an episode of American Idol before, so I had to look up "William Hung" and I came across a talk he made 14 years later. He had since been complicit in putting himself out there for some ridicule (e.g, with an album, which seemed to deliberately showcase his limited singing skills), so I don't mind mentioning that his TEDx talk exhibits that same stilted, robotic, delivery that beset his American Idol audition.



From his talk, it appears that he was set up to fail. Instead of ditching him at the entry stage of American Idol, they waved him through, only to tear him down live. Not cool, and another reason for me not to watch these types of show.
 
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I prefer rhythm, timbre, and even style/delivery over pitch. It's why I love a singer like Lou Reed.
Most people seem to look to pitch and range over anything else. The interesting thing is that if pitch is off (within reason) our brain actually fills in the pitch the singer meant. This was in some book I read about the science of the brain and music. I can't remember the title, but it was interesting. It might have been "This Is Your Brain on Music"...I've read several so I'm not sure. It's an interesting field so dig into some books if you really like the subject.
 
If our brain somehow automatically "fills in" the correct pitch when a singer is slightly off........then how would any of us ever recognize a slightly flat or sharp vocal tone? I'm pretty sure that I do and others I've played in bands with seem to have the same ability.

I do think that there are times, however, when a singer sort of slides into or through the correct note (while starting or ending up on an off pitch note) and we then assign it as being on pitch sometimes. As well.......if a singer is doing a cover........I think it's very possible that much of the audience may be anticipating the correct note / pitch and may not recognize or register a slightly off note.

Just my 2 cents worth.
 
If our brain somehow automatically "fills in" the correct pitch when a singer is slightly off........then how would any of us ever recognize a slightly flat or sharp vocal tone? I'm pretty sure that I do and others I've played in bands with seem to have the same ability.

I do think that there are times, however, when a singer sort of slides into or through the correct note (while starting or ending up on an off pitch note) and we then assign it as being on pitch sometimes. As well.......if a singer is doing a cover........I think it's very possible that much of the audience may be anticipating the correct note / pitch and may not recognize or register a slightly off note.

Just my 2 cents worth.

I'm just relaying what research says. I doubt they were testing trained musicians.
The average person fills in notes the singer meant. Take a song like "People" by the Silver Jews. The melody is so off (like a half step flat the entire song), but it was a big underground hit. That's because the average person heard the harmony, heard the singer going up and down in (flat) pitch, and filled in what he meant. For a more mainstream example just look to Velvet Underground.

I haven't watched the video in the OP yet (I'll check it out now), but in that same book they said tone deafness is very rare. If the singer is going up and down with the melody and can hear that, they're not tone deaf. True tone deaf people are basically monotone -- they can't hear the up and down fluctuations, so they therefore can't sing them. Apparently this is super rare. Like as rare as perfect pitch.
 
:)

Pitch is psychoacoustic, so there is a psychological component to apprehending pitch. I still say that pitch going "up" or "down" is an approximate convention, and that isolating pitch in this fashion is not a requirement of musicality.

I also believe that we can naturally join the dots and refit music, although we can also train ourselves out of this ability.
 
I'm just relaying what research says. I doubt they were testing trained musicians.
The average person fills in notes the singer meant. Take a song like "People" by the Silver Jews. The melody is so off (like a half step flat the entire song), but it was a big underground hit. That's because the average person heard the harmony, heard the singer going up and down in (flat) pitch, and filled in what he meant. For a more mainstream example just look to Velvet Underground.

I haven't watched the video in the OP yet (I'll check it out now), but in that same book they said tone deafness is very rare. If the singer is going up and down with the melody and can hear that, they're not tone deaf. True tone deaf people are basically monotone -- they can't hear the up and down fluctuations, so they therefore can't sing them. Apparently this is super rare. Like as rare as perfect pitch.
My little brother(who loves music) is "tone deaf". The weird part is that he hears the pitch change but his brain interprets it as a volume difference, so higher pitches to him are louder and lower pitches are quieter. He tried to learn a couple of instruments unsuccessfully and I didn't know why(I come from a musical family) until I heard him sing. Eye opening.
To the subject of whether pitch or rhythm should be ranked higher I think it really depends on the purpose. Since the first instrument is voice, which is used to communicate, I would have to say that the two are inextricably linked. If one were to compare a sentence(in English) spoken in a monotone as opposed to using pitch change, the meaning can be completely changed due to the inflection. Not to mention tonal languages like most East Asian dialects. IOW, the emotional content is most accurately communicated when both pitch and rhythm are working together. I'm sure we've all heard stuff like Mr Hung, but to me it's even harder to listen to something with completely random tones OR arrhythmic structure. Even a conversation can lose it's sense if the spaces between words is varied randomly. I haven't researched but my guess is that our brains on average put an equal emphasis on both pitch and rhythm.
 
The weird part is that he hears the pitch change but his brain interprets it as a volume difference, so higher pitches to him are louder and lower pitches are quieter.

I am similar. I cannot always tell you if it's a "pitch" change or a volume change, but I am able to replicate the change.

For me, a vowel or volume change can sometimes sound like a pitch change, when there is no pitch change. It doesn't necessarily matter, because I can still sing it back correctly, although I haven't necessarily been able to analyze exactly which characteristics changed.
 
Watch yourself. I damn near got crucified for saying that last week.

Well.......to be careful in my response.......the video pretty much says that tone deaf people have trouble hearing note / pitch changes that are relatively close together...........such as one tone or note apart. It doesn't say that all amusic people cannot hear ANY differences. Some are worse than others. I'm not 1000% sure what the true definition of "monotone" actually is.......but my perception of that term.....based on its use over the years........is that of a sort of "one note Johnny" type of singer. My wife is by no means a musician......and I do think our abilities to decern pitch issues with singers that we hear or watch together are different.....(mine being better). That said.......she pretty much hears what I hear and knows pitch issues when they occur......even if slightly off.

What I liked about the video was the observations they made regarding Elvis Costello and Bob Dylan. I have to think that others like Johnny Cash and Lou Reed fall into the same outline.
 
I still say that pitch going "up" or "down" is an approximate convention, and that isolating pitch in this fashion is not a requirement of musicality.

Obviously, this is my personal opinion, and I would only apply it to vocal technique. As soon as you start interacting with equipment -- a DAW or musical instrument that is not your voice, expertise in pitch etc. becomes essential because it is the language of processing.
 
I don't have any kind of "perfect pitch" in my own singing, though, I can certainly tell when I'm on or off...but when I listen to other singers, I can hear when they are off relative to the rest of the music. IOW, there's a lost of stylistic interpretation with singing, so you can slide in and out of pitch and even be creatively off...but there are times when your pitch has to be spot on relative to the music, otherwise it really sticks out as "sour" rather than as "style".

I've heard enough of the AI or AGT videos of the singers auditioning...and boy, the hairs on the back of my neck would stand up at times how sour they were, yet they seem to just roll through it. Even some of the finalists' performances, I could heart obvious clams. I think in many cases the judges were being too kind when they would critique, because they realized that if they boot everyone who goes off pitch...they would run out of contestants real quick. :D

So last night I was channel surfing after I shut down at about 1:00AM in the studio...nothing much on, and then I run across "A Star Is Born" with Kris Kristofferson and Barbara Streisand...so I watched it for about a half hour, it had a lot of that early '70s "Rock" vibe (Kristofferson plays the part of a Rock star heading downhill).
Anyway...I was surprised at how lousy Kristofferson sang. Just awful...but he was on-key. Of course, he was never known for his singing, mostly for his songwriting. Then Babs had a few numbers...and as much as I was never a Babs fan...boy she could sing, perfect, on-key, flawless.

I think people who want to sing or who work with singers need to be able to tell the difference. Maybe "tone deafness" afflicts some folks...but anyone that can appreciate music or especially if they play an instrument, should be able to tell the difference. Maybe they can't when they sing...but they should be able to when they listen...enough to know that their (or someone's) singing is good or bad.
I'm just surprised how the majority of the people who ask the "can I sing" question are not able to make their own judgments...though I think many of them are not really asking if they are on-pitch...they just want to know if others like the character/quality of their singing from a "can I make it" perspective.
The "can I make it" angle is hard to respond to, because character/quality of a particular voice is often about the context and possibly even marketing and promotion, etc. IOW....just 'cuz you have a great voice or a rough/semi-unpleasant voice...it doesn't mean you will or won't make it.
 
Yup Miro........that's always been the sticking point for me with this "can I sing" thread. How is it that the off pitch ones have NO IDEA that they're not on pitch?

But the video does seem to give some scientific answers to that question. There are people who apparently have a "brain pathway" issue that genuinely cannot hear proper pitch. Wild but true I guess. Those people obviously would not be able to sing on pitch very well.............and would probably never know it. I think we've met some of those people here.
 
There are people who apparently have a "brain pathway" issue...

Yeah...I don't doubt that. ;)

Seriously though...I don't disagree with that notion that some people just can't connect the dots for pitch recognition (they are probably real good at something else), and it's OK...if you can't hear pitch, no problem...give up on the idea of being a singer. :thumbs up:

I've never been bothered by the singers who are genuine, and who understand and accept the critiques and come here to ask for help.
It's the other ones...who don't/won't take any advice, who argue back in disbelief, or who obviously won't put the time and effort into it.

I mean...there's only the occasional "naturally born" talent that doesn't need to work at it....the rest of us all need to work at it. :)
 
Finished up the video. I like that they touched on Dylan, Neil Young, et al by mentioning how they connect emotionally with people and have a genuine delivery. That's worth a ton. As much as pitch. If the song is good and the person delivers it genuinely they can get away with pitch (within reason).

Who cares if people show up and ask if they can sing? If it bothers you just don't read it. Problem solved!
 
Dylan and Neil Young are not everybody's cup of tea as their styles are not generally "full voice" singing...maybe whinny sometimes as are several other successful songwriters that sing.

Both Dylan and Young are very much IMO in key / not off pitch unless they mean to be in their styling .. Tone deaf people not only can't sing in key they'd be shit out luck trying to tune an instrument without a tuner....Both the aforementioned singers can easily tune a guitar to sound in tune (though maybe not in A-440) without a tuner...whereas that would be an impossibility for a tone deaf person..

Doesn't mean they can't enjoy music and even playing and for sure it's not just you're flat out tone deaf or you're not...some are worse, some are better than others...
 
I remember having real trouble with a student - they would be flat, or sharp, but randomly. I gave them to an expert who played a few notes on the piano - sing this, now sing this. He even tried singing a note and the student had to find it by going up and down the piano keys - "no" he said, "it's not any of them". Twenty years later - he is a singer, working in clubs and theatres and doing pretty well, and he sings in tune, quite nicely. One day, apparently, it just clicked and his pitching ability suddenly started working.

Maybe it's like dancing - some can, some can't but a few can learn?
 
I remember having real trouble with a student - they would be flat, or sharp, but randomly. I gave them to an expert who played a few notes on the piano - sing this, now sing this. He even tried singing a note and the student had to find it by going up and down the piano keys - "no" he said, "it's not any of them". Twenty years later - he is a singer, working in clubs and theatres and doing pretty well, and he sings in tune, quite nicely. One day, apparently, it just clicked and his pitching ability suddenly started working.

Maybe it's like dancing - some can, some can't but a few can learn?


I think learning how to listen is the key to learning how the sing.
 
We were doing a drifters show yesterday and the drummer was really good - my stage manager is an excellent dancer and was trying to copy what the drummer was doing. Two limbs hard, three too hard and four impossible, yet she can do what seems similar in physical movement with her legs and body. Bog standard drums patterns she couldn't do. This seems wrong somehow. Why is music different?
 
It's weird for me, sometimes I think I'm spot on until I hear the recording. Then I'm sometimes pretty flat, and unsure how I didn't catch it when I was singing it. But I'm never sharp - always flat, when off. It could be due to weird things like playback level, one ear on/off phones, both ears covered and music blaring etc... My best takes are usually the 5th-9th. Before and after I'm flat a bit, but the later takes also have a lot more "character", since, by that time, I'm focusing more on emotion and style than pitch.
 
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