Are they really that important??????

F_cksia

New member
Let me know if you think lyrics are really that important.
From my point of view they're just the filling in of the melody.
If you want to spread a message/ change the world, become a politician.
 
Depends on the song F_ck; Sometimes the lyrics govern the melody sometimes the song does. Sometimes the instruments are so distracting you can't even be bothered to listen to the lyrics. Other times the the song is so boring the only thing left is the lyrics.. lets hope their ok.
 
despite all my rage, i am still just a rat in a cage

what if the lyrics were:

despite all my rage, i am still just a chocolate cake

would you like the song? would you connect to it? do you feel like a chocolate cake?

if lyrics aren't important, then why aren't there any top 50 hits in rock/pop/r&b/country/hip-hop
that are instrumentals?
 
Most don't appreciate it, and the one's who could play it don't bother.

Yes, vocals are important. I think we can all agree on that.

Or can we?
 
I suppose that it really depends on the music. I think of Madonna's "like a prayer". I really liked the feel of that song- somehow mystical and enticing- until I one day listened to the lyrics. Utter garbage! They didn't even make sense! Not even for a pop song.

How 'bout something like Kansas with "Carry On" (my wayward son- can't recall the exact title...) That song would be WAY different without those words. The music and the lyrics work together to create a mood and a theme.

Then you have something like the Eagles and "Hotel California." OK, ok, the words might not make too much sense at times, but they so add to the air of the song. More than just melody.

Lyrics can also help define the genre of the song. Did anyone notice when Aerosmith went from hard rock to pop rock? Their lyric content changed, didn't it?

(Wow, I must have classic rock on my mind today...)

My guess is that hardly anyone will judge a song by the lyrics at first listen. I'd also guess that the longevity of a song will come at least partially from its lyrics.

Personally, I MUST have decent lyrics to be happy with a song I've created. I kinda disagree about becoming a politician to change to world. I think of music with a message as just noticing the world or some aspect of life. Pointing it out. A lot of folk music is that way. The lyrics are touching or tell a neat story. It isn't all about making a political statement or pushing an agenda, though it is for some people.

-Chris
 
I agree that an English-speaking person would judge a song at first by its lyrics.
I'm Dutch, so if I hear a song I first notice if the music is good or not, then pick of the booklet to see what they're saying.

Why there are no hits without lyrics? Because when a song is a 'hit', then just a lot of people likes it, becauses they're brainwashed because of the continious radio-broadcasting. And not the majority of people have a good feeling for music, and almost everyone can talk, so can understand lyrics. That's why they buy it, I think.
 
Along F_cksia's comments, lyrics are fairly important, but not completely important. Hence Rammstein's popularity in the U.S.
 
Here's what I can offer

A few thoughts...
I really think lyrics and vocals are two different issues entirely. It is true that there are rarely any pop/rock/country hits without vocals. However, there are hundreds without meaningful lyrics (and, of course hundreds with meaningful ones as well.)
I think most pop songs are so full of dead words and overused cliches that just about any other set of lyrics could be substituted and no one would care. (If I have to listen to one more song that rhymes "fire" with "desire" I'm gonna puke!)
However there are tons of songs that have really, REALLY clever, meaningful lyrics. Some songs even make great use of meaningless lyrics that become the hook of the song (Scaramoosh, Scaramoosh, Can you do the fandango?).
If you want to hear some absotely great lyrical magic, listen to a few Disney songs with lyrics by Tim Rice. (Gaston's song from Beauty and the Beast: "I'm especially good at expectorating. As a specimen yes, I'm intimidating...") Great use of inside rhyming. Anyway....
For me glib lyrics demonstrate a higher level of songwriting ability than just run of the mill rock. That's not to say that I don't enjoy it all, I just appreciate good lyrics.
Aaron
http://www.aaroncheney.com
 
words is words

I think that most people connect with the words of a song, either consciously or subconsciously. The lyrical message is what most people latch onto. Or so I'm told.

I, on the other hand, almost never hear the words. Or I hear them, but don't really pay attention to them. I'm a guitarist, and so I hear the music first. The lyrics are about the last thing that I care about, and when I write new songs, the lyrics are the last thing I write.

I remember having this conversation with a friend of mine in college, over two of my favorite songs at the time: "Give it Away" by the Red Hot Chili Peppers, and "Mama Said" by Lenny Kravitz. I can't think of stupider lyrics in either case. But I love the funky vibe in both of those songs-- that's what I really respond to.

I also like clever, simple lyrics that complement great music:

If you want to destroy my sweater
Hold this thread while I walk away

Pete
 
I don't think vocals and lyrics are necessarily separate issues.. Ever heard a song with nonsensical lyrics, and yet the diction in the choice of words seems to lock perfectly with the groove? I personally don't like rap, but I hafta admit rappers are excellent at juxtaposing rhythm to words...

My problem is that I'll write lyrics and find I have to change them around because certain words sound stupid when I sing them....

Cy
 
Hmmm....

Music, to me, is largely about emotional response. Both how I feel about it and the response it evokes in the listener.

Classical music evokes a tremendous response in me. The movement that it can create with only sound and rythm is phenomenal.

Most modern music listeners are also listening because of some connection they feel to the song. Some may like the beat, others the groove, others the attitude, and yet others the lyrics. They relate to something about it. Most folks don't listen to the stuff for the musical genious in it.

Its more a celebration of common emotions than an appreciation of excellent musicianship, I suppose. Musicians frequently see only the artistry of the music- which is fine: it can be difficult to understand how your music is going to hit other people emotionally.

That's why pop music dwells on the same old, boring, common themes: they predictably hook enough people to pay the bills.

Aaron- great post! Said another way, there is also an artistry to crafting good lyrics. For me, the ideal song would blend clever and meaningful lyrics with clever and meaningful music.

-Chris
 
I'm also one of those people who notice the music more than the lyrics. I guess that's partly because I either can't always hear the lyrics or because they are too vague to know what they mean. But there are some songs where I really do appreciate them (like Don McLean, for instance). I always wished I could appreciate Bob Dylan the way my friends could, but I could never get past his awful voice.

Sometime lyrics seem to be abstract. For example, I have no idea what most of Yes's lyrics are about. Jon Anderson is surely a space cadet. But I think of the words as just a carrier for vocals. The vowels and consonants are put together with the music as if they were music themselves, even though they have no meaning. It's like an abstract painting. (I'm sure Anderson intends for his lyrics to mean something, I just have no idea what.)

I agree with F_cksia about why only songs with lyrics become hits. Not everyone can play an instrument, but everyone can sing and understand words.

One power, and perhaps danger, of marrying lyrics with music is that it often gives undue legitimacy to a message in the lyrics. You often hear people say something like "hey man, it's just like Twisted Aardvarks say in that song…blah…blah" and they go on to quote a lyric. But you're less likely to hear anyone quote famous poets that way. I forget who said it, but there is an often-quoted line about not using music for messages: "If you got a message, use Western Union".

Jim
 
Important to who? (whom??)
It depends on who the intended listener is. If you are writing for
the mindless, then you'd better keep it simple. On the other hand , if your intended audience is more literate or sophisticated
you could include a few three and four syllable words.
Sometimes it's "schnapps", sometimes it's "champaigne"
It's all just entertainment ,after all.

"A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
.......W. Shakespeare

I guess my point is that if we start with a clear idea of what we want to do, it makes the whole creative process a lot
more direct and predictable and therefore easier.
 
Simple could also be genius.
I've changed my mind: I'm playing now Goodbye Saigon (Billy Joel) and the music is great, but if you also listen to the lyrics, although they're quite simple, that is just amplifying the feeling the song creates!
 
Here's what I can offer.

JimH, you bring up some good points.
As I was reading this post I was comparing RUSH with YES and thinking about how they were exact opposites in this regard. Yes lyrics are completely meaningless, while Rush lyrics are meticulously crafted. I've read in many places that John Anderson's lyrics were nothing more than gibberish, crafted to fit the music and nothing more. Compare "Ten true summers, we'll be there and laughing too" to "All this machinery making modern music....it's really just a question of your honesty". It's like night and day. Which is better?
As far as messages in music, and people quoting songs but never poets, I see it this way: I teach a music appreciation class, and I have seen a mountain of evidence that shows that people are able to remember words set to a melody far better than words simply spoken. Music has an almost mathematical order to it, and it formats your brain almost like a hard drive. It creates a space on your brain where that bit of information can stick.
Ever heard a song, and instantly you recall a time in your life, or and activity, or a feeling you had that was attached to that song? As a parent of two great kids, I often worry about the "undue legitimacy" you mentioned. What kind of crap is being cemented in my kid's brains when they listen to different kinds of music? Yikes!
Too preachy? Sorry.
Aaron
http://www.aaroncheney.com
 
I had heard however that South Side of the Sky from Fragile is about a mountain climbing expedition in the Himalayas. When you read the lyrics knowing that, they make more sense. Perhaps more of their songs would make sense if we could know what they were about before hand. But I agree, many seem like they are just crafted for the music.
 
Agreeing with Jim H

Yes music can be used to make ideas easier to convey to an audience....advertising in the broadcast media has given us some great examples of how effective that can be. Sometimes we don't
agree with the ideas put forth. We might see them as dangerous or threatening to our values. in the "50s there was a lot of energy expended in fear of the evil influences of thet "jungle music" known as Rock and Roll. These days some are upset about some of MnM's lyrics (lyrics??)Lets call them ideas put forth in his records. Maybe we should be nervous about some of it but I'm more scared of official censorship than transient entertainment product that is not designed or marketed to be around for very long. Censorship, on the other hand , once brought into the mix might be around for a VERY long time.
What do you think??
 
Censorship

chazba said:
Censorship, on the other hand , once brought into the mix might be around for a VERY long time.
What do you think??

That reminds me. I've only encountered one business that screens their e-mails. The business filters out all .exe's. The business also filters out all e-mails containing "restricted" words. These words include curse words, among others. Therefore, if an e-mail contains one of these words, even in a passing quotation, the e-mail gets blocked.

I ask you, is this censorship?
 
Censorhip, Part II

By the way, this "business" that employs censorship is the Milwaukee Journal Sentinal. The only major newspaper in an area of over one million people. The business also owns a local network television station and the major local news radio station.

It makes you wonder when a major source of news is employing censorship of what it deems appropriate for its employees to read. It makes you wonder if they are censoring what it deems is appropriate for the public to know.
 
Re: Agreeing with Jim H

chazba said:
...but I'm more scared of official censorship than transient entertainment product that is not designed or marketed to be around for very long. Censorship, on the other hand , once brought into the mix might be around for a VERY long time.
What do you think??

Your absolutely right about that. Censorship=bad. No argument with that. People should be able to say, sing, create whatever they want so long as it does not interfere w/ another's rights.

And you are right about the "transient" nature of most pop songs. 99% have a very limited shelf life. But there is a cumalative effect. One drop of water has a very limited life also, but over time a constant drip will wear a hole through anything. (or make a stalactite; or is that stalagmite? I can never remember.)(there must be a good song idea in that somewhere!)

I almost think that kind of threat is the more insideous of the two, because it can work on you even when you are free to make choices, whereas censorship is an obivous limit to freedom that is easier to spot.

As a parent, I wonder how many times my kids have to be told something that is different from what I try to teach them before they start to believe it instead of me.

Just thinking out loud...

Aaron
http://www.aaroncheney.com
 
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