New way for me, possibly not for you.

badgas

New member
A few months ago I began weeding out my collection of original songs.
I had 323 songs.
Now I have 36.

There were several reasons why I dumped most of my songs.
1. Some were terrible.
2. I found around thirty songs that sounded alike.
3. Repitition in lyrics or melody, or structure, etc.
4. I knew they sucked.

I've been writing songs over forty years and playing music longer than songwriting, and only in the past two and a half years have I come to take the task of songwriting serious enough to begin to 'care'.

I made notes about each and every song I discarded to see if I could find why my songs sounded like shit.
Just one event within all the songs I trashed is what I want to talk about here.
And that is, a lot of them were in the same progression. The keys, tempo, arrangement and structure changed in most of them, but the progression was still the same old comfortable progression I always fell back on. Thus most of the songs I dumped sounded like the same old bluesy tune as all the rest, with some difference of course.

A shit slapping 64% of the songs I trashed had the same progression. I recorded 45 minutes of them on a cassette tape. (no, you do not want to hear it) I listed the songs so the tempo and keys would varey from one song to the next.
Not bad, but I felt a bit bored. Simular to playing a 45 minute set in the same key. But not as bad as fast.

I think I'm about half way through recording (less mix & mastering) my first CD. This is another reason for the weeding out of the crap I've saved since I was fourteen.

I was kinda suprised that so many of my songs were in the same old progression and I was totally unaware of it. This caused me to pick songs from my list of 36 that didn't have the same progression. (It's my CD and this is what I want on it. I know a duplicate progression can be used. But I am what I am. Fanatical) I had thirteen that I wanted on this CD out of the 36, but that left a lot of blank space on the CD. So I picked one cover, a hit back in 1869, and wrote five new songs in the past two months.

Five songs in two months is nothing new for me. But five songs in a row, that I like? Unheard of.
When ever I would write a song it would be as such;
Strumming my guitar or keyboard with some drums, finding some chords that fit my mood, adding a melody, then the lyrics. It'd work almost every time. Cripes, I had over three hundred tunes to prove it worked.

After I started getting serious and down to business with my songwriting, I came to realize that it sounded 'like it' worked almost every time, too.
I was in a songwriting rut, and the muse was tired of pulling me out of the hole I dug for myself.
I started something different in my way of writing songs, for two reasons.
One to better my own understanding of what the hell I was aiming at, and two, to collab with a good friend of mine.

Without his knowing it, Joro kicked my ass in gear and got me thinking about a new way to build a song. It didn't fall into place though until I found out I was in a progression rut.

What I did was figure out five new progressions. Then I built those five new songs around the progressions.

With what Joro said to me one day, and what I saw in my own writings, I came up with this progression first instead of some haphazard chord configuration and the melody and lyrics.

So, sometime when your up against the wall, the muse seems to of forgotten you exist, you want try a new way to write a song, what ever the reason you can come up with, try this.

Create a progression you don't usually use.
Play it through over and over, using various tempos and keys. Get comfortable with it.
Build the song around the progression.
Keep the building of your song flexible though so you are not confined within ridged guidlines.
And have fun.

Here is the list of songs, less the cover, and the progressions I'm using. Damn if I don't feel like I'm getting a grip on something besides the same old way I have been writing songs for years.
I hope it helps someone see things in a new light like I have.

l, lllm, llm, V ------------------------------------- It's What I've Become
l, lllm7, lV9, Vl7sus, Vl -------------------- Winter Tree
l, lllm, Vlm, lV ----------------------------------- Beyond The Dawn
ladd9, lV6/sus4, 1m, Vlm, Vll, V5 -------- Soft Southern Breeze
l, lV, V, Vlm, ------------------------------------ Another Bitter Tear
l, V6, llm7, C ------------------------------------ Eyes Filled With Tears
l7, V7, Vl7 ------------------------------------- Feeling Good
l, Vlm, llm, V ----------------------------------- Woolton Church
l, Vlm, lV, V. ------------------------------------- Whatever You Say.
lm, l9m7, lVm, lll ------------------------------ Shotgun Me
lm, lm/add9, lVsus2, Vl7 -------------------- Only In My Dreams
lm7, lV9, lV, Vllm7, Vm7, lll, #ll9 ----------- Say, Shaylata
lm, lVm, Vm -------------------------------------- Wash Away My Blues
lm, Vm, Vlm, -------------------------------------- Better Now Than Later
lm, Vl, V, lll, -------------------------------------- Every Move I Make,
lm, bVl, bVll -------------------------------------- Make It Last Forever
lm, bVl, blll, bVll5 -------------------------------- Don't Be Sad
lm, bVll -------------------------------------------- Sleep Talk


And what did Joro say to me that tripped my trigger some months ago?
"Have fun writing songs."

I had made my whole life around music. When asked what I did for a living, I'd reply, "Musician." What I didn't say was; "I'm a serious, narrow minded, stuck in a rut, fucking musican, confined within my own strick code for making a living at it, and after so many years of coveting it, I can see no other way, other than my own."

"Fun?" you ask.
"Yeah, when I wrote my last five songs, I had fun doing it." I say, "And it felt good."
Funny and ironic, in a strange sorta way.
 
Well amen to that.

In the last eight years I've written about 80 songs... (not to mention the countless chord structures with mumbled lyrics and half-melodies that I never bothered to go back and finish.)

And whenever I go back to "review" what I've created over the course of time, it never ceases to amaze me how much of it is the same old crap.

Same chord progressions, same lyircs, same topics, same melodies.


But what I wan to know is... how did you find "new" progressions. I mean, when I sit down with my guitar, my hand invariably falls on the same chord that it's fallen on for the last 7 or so years. And when I start to play through chords, I invariably make the same changes in pattern that I always have.


So where did you find your "new" ideas for progressions? Did you just roll 4 or 5 dice and play whatever pattern came up? Did you read a book on some other guitar stlye? Did you just sit and try to "think outside the box"?


(btw, I say "new" in quotes because it's not like we're gonna find a truly "new" pattern... but to us it may be new. Heck, the pattern you've been playing for 40 years might be totally new to my library of chord patterns... and vice versa.)


WATYF
 
Joro2.
Sure, you can here them when I'm done.

Ummm, are you Joro also or are you someone else?
Joro is Joe, too.



WATYF

Where to find progressions?
Hmmm. Good Question.

Actually, it's probably easier than we think. This is a new way of songwriting for me and I have so many pokers in the fire right now I'm stalling on this topic till I get some of the older projects out of the way.

I made up two of the five progressions I used just by randomly picking the postions, or numbers. No dice or anything like that, just picked them before I even played them.

Since there are 7 notes,
l, ll, lll, lV, V, Vl, Vll,
they can be arranged in any squence, as long at 'l' is the first one, as it is the first chord in your progression.
Example.

l, lV, Vl.
l, Vl, ll.
l, V, Vll, lll, lV.
etc.

But, lets not forget the minors, dim, 7ths, # & b, etc.

lm, Vl7, lll, #ll.

I'm sure every concievable arrangement has been used already, as you mentioned.

The other three I snatched from other's music.
I don't even know the names of the songs because I didn't look at the titles or the artists.
By changing the tempo & key, maybe from 4/4 to 3/4 time, etc, a totally new sound developes.

Other sources is books on chord progressions and/or theory, online theory sites and an online search may produce something.

I have one flimsey pamplette on theory. It does give mention to progressions, but only in the sense of using something like the Aeolian and Mixolydian chords in the same progression. The example is,
l, blll, lV, V, bVll.

(((((I went and found my flimsey little pamplette, actually it's a copy of some text from a theory site (see below) I use to frequent.

This 'l, blll, lV, V, bVll', progression is from a song by Queen, 'Crazy Little Thing Called Love. The example shown is,

l lV bVll lV l blll
D, Dsus4, D, Dsus4, D, Dsus4, D, G, C, G, D, Dsus4, D, F)))))

I use to hang out on a site called, I Breath Music. I think the addy is,
ibreathmusic.com or maybe .net It's been a while and I have no record of the addy.
But probably any theory site would offer some advice.

For me, I'm just going to randomly pick a few more to mess with, then later, I'll build a progression with an aim, or direction, with an idea I have in mind for which I want a song to follow.
 
badgas said:
Joro2.
Sure, you can here them when I'm done.

Ummm, are you Joro also or are you someone else?
Joro is Joe, too.





Ummm......




I dunno.....let me check......














































yup...it's me Dann... :D

Joe (aka joro - aka joro2 - aka banned assclown :D )
 
grinder.
Very interesting map.
Wonderful possibilitys.
What do the arrows mean though? Like 'Home l' for example.
Are the arrows pointing into 'Home' what is possible to use, or the one arrow going out, to the next chord?

I'm sure the arrows pointing into the 'Home' mean those are the ones that can be used in order, but I just want to make sure.
It's little things like this that I make into mountains. Sorry for the dumb question.






Joro!!!!!
I read you were banned in the cave. There has to be a mistake.
I'm going on a music strike till this is recified.
No more music for me.

Gonna be tough, but I'll stand by ya, Joe.
Guess I better leave now, since this board is music related.
Anything I can do lemme know. I have some friends that,,,,
~ whispers in your ear ~
Pssst, psssst. Psst, Pssssst, Slackmaster psst, psssssssst, psst.

Ok?
 
Not a dumb question, the map is a little confusing at first.Starting on I, go to the next chord of your choice and follow the arrows by any possible path to get back to I.Or start on the chord of your choice and follow the arrows back to I.The progression doesn't have to start on the I chord, it can end on I and still work.
 
seems what you've hit on is that creativity is not *just* about 'flow' or instinct. A big part of producing good stuff is an intellectual or analytical overview of what you are doing. It helps to make progresss if you take a 'high-level' view of your creative endeavours. I think that is the best way to see our weakensses. You analyze it, you find something that needs work, and you ... attack the problem. If we all went on instinct all the time, we'd all miss something

LN
 
Hey, Joe.
I see you're back unbanned. Gimme your leg, I'll put a new band in it. :)
Glad your back, in one piece.
 
I can't agree with you more, Layla.
A couple of the songs I'm working on is being done soley by inspiration, a few others are just reworks of older songs I've written, and several are being done by thought processes. Working out various problems I knew I've had for the past few years but have only now found out exactly what they were.
This analytical, as you call it, it challenging, but the three songs I'm working on now with this approach are, I feel, better than anything I've done so far.

I'm outta my rut now.
Be gettin' with you soon Joe.
 
I don't want to come in from left feild as a "newbie" here. I would just like to suggest that it is not always necessary to start and or end on "I" in progression of order. Inserting substitution chords at key points of a verse or chorus to lead you to the next section of the song is one "trick" I use to try and force myself away from the old I VI II V (Left out the m's,7's,9's,11's etc because they are voices that will be added to compliment the melody as they evolve)
What I am trying to say is, (I think) think outside the box... Now if a melody, lyrics happens to come first, it is even better, because then you can work the voicings of the notes in the "progression" and this will keep it "fresh" as long as the melody is fresh and works with the overall song you should end up with "music" ;)
 
Lately I've been writing what you might call 'historical' songs, seven since Sunday. Today I hope to write two more; one about Gen. Patton's desert traing camp at Pilot Knob in 1943, and the other about a place called the Tumco mine nearby.

Anyway, my method is like what Layla mentioned, I take a step back and get an overview (after a bunch of research) of what it is I want to accomplish and what kind of story I want to tell. Then I'll make a mental outline, scratch a few notes of words I definitely want to put in.

About this time I've got a style and tempo in mind and usually the melody has shown up. If not, I'll conjure up obscure old fiddle tunes, not so much for the melody, but for the way it sits against the chords.

For instance, yesterday's song was about a short lived (1916-1926) seven mile long little wooden road over the sand dunes of the southeastern Imperial Valley called 'The Old Plank Road'. I remember my grandfather talking about how it was only one lane wide and fistfights would break out when people wouldn't use the turnouts. They's hang tires on 4 x 4's so you could see 'em.

The melody for the verse was inspired by the traditional fiddle song 'Wild Rose of the Mountain', but you wouldn't know it. I just liked the way part of it sat in the key of A, it gave me that motion feel I was looking for, then I made up a turn around riff and chorus and plopped down some words.

Here it is:

OLD PLANK ROAD

Out in the desert where the Vulture flies, there’s an ocean of sand so high
Goes in length nearly 50 miles, and stretches nearly 7 miles wide

The hard winds blow like driven snow, and grit gets into your eyes
And the sand it drifts like waves at sea, and there ain’t no place to hide

Folks needed to cross with their automobiles, to drive around it was too slow
So over the top like a wooden snake, that’s where they put the old plank road

Ch) The old plank road was mighty chancy, and the old plank road was thin
Eight feet wide from side to side, when will this wooden road end?
Thumpin’ and a-bumpin’ shakin up an down, rattle like your shakin’ up a can
On the other side things do subside, daddy can we take the road again?

In 1916 they built the old road, out of seven miles of wooden crossties
Held together with bars of steel, so the people in the cars could roll by

You may ask yourself what did they do, when a car would come the other way
Every 1000 feet they put in a turnout, so you could scoot aside and get away

Ch)

There’s a story ‘bout the man in an eastbound car, stubborn and refused to yield
20 westbound cars stuck on the road, they went and got his automobile

They picked it up and put him in the sand, and the westbound cars got by
Picked it up again and put it on the road, and waved a not too pleasant good bye

Ch)

If you’re crossing the desert by old Gray’s well, out on interstate eight
Take a look around at the old plank road, before the sand takes it all away

Ch)


So, in the case of this song, the chord progression was the last thing to come around.
 
From your post you seem like a Virgo with obsessive compulsive behaviour. I wouldn't throw anything away or discard anything. Write 361 more tunes and add them to the files. Man you got me beat by a mile. And I thought I was bad.
 
Some songs just need to be written

Just because they may not be commercial or marketable, does not mean they are "crap" or unusable. If you have a catalog of original stuff to work with. You may find bits and pieces of multiple works that may be weak on their own, but combine to make something good.
(just a thought from an old fart)

Larry
 
repetitive progressions

I'm just thinking out aloud here...
Anyone listened to a John Mellancamp album?
Proof that same progressions in many of your songs doesn't matter.
Anyone notice the similar progression between Christina's 'Dirty' and 'Fighter'
You notice the amount of Lennon/McCartney songs that centre around your standard 12 bar???

The point I'm making is that there is alot more then the harmonic progression that make up a song... I'd say there isn't a jazz bebop song that doesn't use ii7 V I progression at some point...

But each song brings something new...

Goodluck with your album man
Scott
 
Very interesting thread!

Very interesting thread! Here's my 2 cents worth...

One of the exciting things about creating new music is that there are so many different possible starting points. I find that I get a lot more variety in my music when I use different starting points for different songs. A sequence of guitar chords is certainly an excellent starting point, but there are so many others. And of course, each writer has certain favorites methods of crafting a new song -- we've seen several examples in this thread.

Myself, I've started songs in each of the following ways:

1. Piano chords first
2. Lyrics first (sometimes using one of my poems as a starting point)
3. Melody first
4. Percussion rhythms first
5. Interesting electronic timbres first
6. Unusual time signature first (9/8, 5/4, 15/16)

The tools we use to assist our creativity end up having a big effect on the final result. If your principal tool is a guitar, then your overall body of work will reflect the biases of this approach. For instance, the emphasis on chord progressions is a typical bias of this method.

Note that "bias" in this context is not necessarily a negative term. In fact, a "bias" could simply mean a distinctive style -- which is often a good thing, especially if you have fans who are fond of your music. But if your music is getting into a rut, then trying a different starting point might be a good method for breaking out.

I also very much agree with Layla's point about stepping back and doing some analysis of your body of work every now and then. Of course, this was also the main point of badgas's original post. I also enjoyed philboyd's illustration of the use of analysis during the creative process itself. And Scott has a good point that in many songs, there are other attributes besides the chord progression that make the song distinctive and memorable.

Finally, I enjoyed seeing the examples and links regarding possible chord progressions. It's been awhile since I have used a chord progression as the starting point for one of my songs, but after reading this thread, I think I will give it another try!
 
I analyze and edit but I don't criticize what I write, once the raft goes in the water we're goin' through the rapids no matter what.

Besides, I'm a lousy critic of my stuff or anyone else's for that matter. Over the years people have really liked songs I've written that I really didn't care for.
 
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