I need a f'in efficiency expert

L

lend_me_talent

New member
My fuckin song writing is sucking right now. I'm a poet by nature and poetry is free flowing and more or less formless. Its not translating well into music.

Compound that with the fact that I don't know dick about music theory therefore I cant write a fucking melody at the moment so I have no concept of how to sing my songs.

I am planning to enroll in some music courses next semester, but I'm limited in what classes I can take (med school bound hopefully)


Don't get me wrong I can play the guitar, but I can't understand it or create my own shiat

well here are my latest bloated monstrosities. I need someone efficient to help me trim these fucking things down into a more popularized format.

[Too many nights for a one night stand

VERSE 1
This relationship is a vampire in daylight
It cast no reflection on the mirrors of our hearts
Because we’ve both been bled dry
We are nothing more than
A few stolen nights
Victims of lust fueled fire
yet you lack substance to feel me
Or to fill me with anything
But base desire

CHORUS
what fucking chorus???

VERSE 2
Tonight we’ll meet again
You’ll tell me about your day
I’ll regurgitate some phrase
Just to fill the silence
I’ll tell you the jokes you’ve
Heard a thousand times
and you’ll pretend to laugh again
until at last we resort to the only thing we have
and find brief solace in each others skin
Somewhere between the afterglow and reality
Lies the fact that all we ever had was chemistry

VERSE 3
In the morning we’ll avoid each others eyes
As our words avoid the truth
While in our minds we wonder where
Things went wrong
And just how a one night stand
Could last so long
We’ll head our separate ways
As our days begin
Speaking vows behind closed lips
As we depart
In denial of the fact that night will come again




UNTITLED
sHe was that girl you could pass
a 1,000 times and never see
possesor of a beauty less obvious
if only I hadn't been so oblivious
Might have seen the sun setting in her eyes
Now that I look back I see the signs
That this girl was going to take her life
She had gotten so far away from home
And lost a little more each day


She was crying when I left that night
I remember the tears that wet my lips
When I kissed her cheek
I would've found something better to say
If i'd known that was the last we'd ever speak
I would have told her that she was my friend
and that I loved her for what she kept within
but we were young and it never dawned on me
that theres no such thing as immortality




UNTITLED
I understand you because I see
The beauty in your frailty
To me you are poetry
You will always be the meter
and the verse of my humanity
I am the flower that your tears
have nourished
I hope I've bloomed to be
a worthy product of your devotion
I can only repay your beauty
by letting it shine through me

CHORUS
I've loved you all the time I've been
Before love was known to me
Your the well where life began
and your waters still run deep in me

VERSE 2
Doesn't matter what anyone says
I will never forget what you are
You spark all creation
and birth all creativity
bold as golden sunrise
shining down on me
You illuminate all hope
and embody all possibilities
I will never be more
Than a sum of the love
you've given me
I feel blessed to be that
and its all I'd ever want to be


Bridge
Remember the way I'd raise my chin?
afraid to show I hurt inside
You'd wrap me in your warmth
And tell me (that) it was ok to cry
Its a fear I have yet to overcome
but I'm back in your arms
Everytime I close my eyes
and all my fears subside
although I've grown into a man
I'll always be your little boy inside


I've pretty much stopped attempting to write choruses as I have yet to come up with a decent one. i think I've covered all bases here the obligatory bad relationship song, the obligatory song about loss, and the obligatory song for mama.


Thanks for reading,
JF
 
Dear Lend_Me,

You asked, so here goes: as you know, poetry and lyrics are two completely different things. It's clear that you are approaching songwriting from a poet's background. Here are a few tips:

1) If you have a full set of words and the title isn't absolutely, undeniably, painfully obvious, you have a poem, not a lyric. The fact that two of your works are finished and you're still calling them "Untitled" is a dead giveaway... they're poems.

2)A modern lyric should be conversational. Lines like "possesser of a beauty less obvious" are a dead giveaway: poem. People don't talk like that in conversation. If you want a good lyric, don't use archane words or figures of speech.

3)Songs are stories 90% of the time. They have a plot and go somewhere. You've approached that with some of your lines, but it could be stronger.

4) In a good lyric, everything, and I mean everything, leads back to the chorus. A lyric is all about the chorus. The chorus is everything. The chorus is the hook of the song. Nothing is as important as the chorus. Know what I'm sayin'?

5)Verses tell the story and move the plot along. Choruses tell what the song is about - over and over again. And the hook goes there. And they're really important, remember? Bridges are the plot twist.

I did like some of your imagry, particularly the vampire stuff, but I'm telling ya... a lyric almost always starts with a title and hook. A perfect stranger should be able to read through it once and say "I know what the title is." If that isn't the case, you have a poem.

got mojo?
www.voodoovibe.com
 
And by the way, if you're having trouble writing music the best place to start is with the trusty old IV-V-I. If you're not sure what that is, gohere .

You can't go wrong with that. Once you've written a few simple songs you'll develop the courage to try some new stuff.


got mojo?
www.voodoovibe.com
 
Aaron pretty much told you ...But lets see if I can help you with your chour section... only for example..Im rusty


Waters runnin' deep
your hearts a well
I got a bucket
Waters runnin' deep
In your spell I fell
I got a feelin'
Waters runnin' deep...


Anyways keep it simple..No big words..Allmost "simplex"if you know what I mean..Good luck



Don
 
Aarons comment #5 sums it up...discard your poetry approach, come at each song from a story writers perspective...

make a brief outline of the subject if you need too (this helps with exploring dynamics also, among other things)

Try limiting yourself to a word count per verse (I suggest 25 words per verse MAX including a's, the's etc. and a line limit. A LOT of music is based around 4-line verses.

Limit yourself to force yourself to tell the story quickly and succinctly.

Good luck!
 
Hi. Just wanted to add my 2 cents. Here's what I do:

I have a ton of poems that I have written. They are all stored on my computer in text files for easy access and backed up on CD-RW's. I never try to convert them directly into songs, but instead use them for ideas.

What I do is mess around with my guitar until I find a riff or chord progression that I find interesting. I don't worry about how simple or complex it is, I just try to find something that appeals to me. Then I'll kind of mumble and hum a bunch of "la da da de de de dadada laaaaaa" kind of stuff. If it seems to go well, then I'll decide what the song will be about and I'll use the poems for ideas. Some of my songs have taken lines from several different poems. I almost always have to rework the poem to get it to fit into the rythm of the song and I usually write several different choruses and verses and pick the best one. That's just how I go about it. I really don't think you need to take any courses on music theory to write music...I never have, but I don't have a wall full of platinum records either. It couldn't hurt.

Welp, that's my 2 cents for what it's worth
 
Conversation

Try writing like a conversation. The Verse is one person and the chorus is the reply the other person gives. The Bridge is where the person answering on the chorus says something different but is the same subject as the chorus response. I like your lyrics though, I don't how much you could make this format that just described work with your lyrics, but you seem like coming up with lyrics is your strong point. Try writing a song like that and see were it leads you. As far as a melody, when you are not sure about it, play each chord in your song and try not singing the exact chords for notes. Stay in key but go higher then the chords and then you will be doing a 5th of the chord, or other harmony notes(3rd,6th etc). You don't have to know music theory to do this, all it requires is if you know your going off key or not. thisis one way to start writing a melody before you take the music theory class which will help you. I also took a music theory class and it help a lot with writing melody's and coming up with harmonies. I hope I didn't confuse you or anything, just giving you some suggestions.
 
my take on this

Hey lend_me_talent,

I think you definitely have a way with words and I encourage you to expand on your gift. Don't try to "dumb down" your words to turn them into some kind of insipid pop song.

There are many great poetic songwriters like Bob Dylan, Patti Smith, and Pete Townshend ...just to name a few...

Think about the natural rhythms that your words evoke and try to create grooves to compliment them. Once you get a groove of some sort established sometimes it only takes a few good chord changes and a simple melody to create a powerful song.

I repeat...do NOT try to "dumb down" your words. It's obviously your strength and something you want to work with not against!

Be who you are and allow your music to express that!
 
keep at it, lend_me_talent

... i think the constructive critisism given you so far, is basically telling you that you might try to make your lyrics a little more focused. a few well chosen words can do the work of many, and sometimes better. i agree, that i think you have some nice imagery here, and there is nothing wrong in my book with "poetic" lyrics. kesterdevine mentioned patti smith and dylan, and i'll add elliot smith, nick drake, and jeff buckley to a long list of such songwriters. with all due respect to commercial songwriters, who often adhere to a "right" and "wrong" way of doing things, and a strong definition of what is a lyric, and what constitutes a song... i think there is something to be said for following your own vision, and creating what you best feel represents what you are trying to get across.
this is a very intricate subject that requires lots of trial and error, and time to find your voice. might i suggest doing some serious listening to the music that inspires you, and try to notice all the little details that make it effective or beautiful in your eyes (and ears). experiment with different melodies and how lyrics flow with them, and create something that is uniquely yours. don't settle for anything less than what YOU feel captures your intent, no matter what anyone tells ya... including me;)
peace- jv
 
:rolleyes: Sigh......

Music is art. You can do with it whatever you wish. You can make a 14 minute song with lyrics that are only two words over and over again if that floats your boat.

It all depends on what your intentions are. If you are writing for your own amusement, or for "art's sake", the sky's the limit. If, on the other hand, you are hoping for a reasonable chance at commercial success, you need to write within an established framework. There are still plenty of ways to be brilliant, express your own voice, and be creative, you just have to approach things differently.

And yes, there are tons of poetic or unconventional songs that are well-written and have been very successful, however 99% of them were written by an artist that was already very well established with a big fan base. To get to that point you have to be willing to "play the game" a little.

got mojo?
www.voodoovibe.com
 
i agree, aaron, but...

... i agree that most of your commercially successful songs adhere to a certain formula. if someone wants to be a part of the industry in la or nashville, i am well aware that there are definitely "rules" to be followed. however, this young songwriter mentioned nothing about becoming famous, or commercial success, and i just wanted to give him or her another perspective. there are many independent artists out there making a "living"(some lucrative, some just squeaking by, like me) doing what they really love, without fitting in a box, and an audience out there that appreciates new music without boundaries. i'm not just talking about out there, avante garde stuff, but people with a personal language of music that might not always fit the tried and proved mold. i respect "conventional" songwriting, and borrow and steal from classic stuff all the time, but this songwriter looking for help seemed like he was pretty far removed from the mainstream already, and i was just trying help them out, without completely changing what seems to come naturally.
on that note, i would like to keep this thread about helping this person out, and i don't wish to use it to expound on my views of what constitutes "success" or even a good "song". maybe i'll start a new thread for that. i love to hear other views, and appreciate these forums for that.
my best advice to jf, is still:
this is a very intricate subject that requires lots of trial and error, and time to find your voice. might i suggest doing some serious listening to the music that inspires you, and try to notice all the little details that make it effective or beautiful in your eyes (and ears). experiment with different melodies and how lyrics flow with them, and create something that is uniquely yours.

peace- jv (sorry for the lengthy post)
 
Great stuff, talent. I mean that.

I'm not exactly sure what to say. On one hand, the excellent songwiriting advice in this thread is well given and quite right. On the other hand, writing poetic songs is an advanced technique that you may have a crack at if you don't mind ignoring the formulaic rules.

Lyrics tend to have a regular meter and rythm, as well as consistent rhyming patterns. Its really hard to write a poem and try to set it to song.

A suggestion that I have for you is to write your melodies first. Hum them, sing random syllables, whatever you need to while playing the guitar until something grabs you.

Once you have the melody, it will give you the meter in which to write.

Another suggestion is to sing your poems without any accompaniment. Once you land on something you like, write the chord changes underneath it.

And forget the idea of a chorus unless you really want to have one. In many of my songs the choruses are really more like emphasised verses with hook-like elements and some repeated phrases. Do whatever the song and your creativity need.

For example: http://www.chrisshaeffer.com/Lyrics/Mute.htm

The choruses all have only the first 2 lines in common- they start with "I long to hear us sing a song...."

Anyway- great stuff. Be patient and have faith that your skill with words will translate to lyrics. Keep at it and it will happen.

Take care,
Chris
 
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