The "I can't sing" people!

I commend FingerzAndKeyz for having nailed the jelly to the wall with such precision and aplomb! :p

There is always that contention in art of trying to separate good from bad while avoiding a definition or limitation of art. Some people critique art using pragmatic subjective language. Others use strident objective language -- it matters not a whit, it is still subjective however shrill their assertions may become.

Part of the problem is that our institutions need principles and gatekeepers in order to survive. Yet the principle of art in general is that it has no principle. Of course we can refine the general, and create genre. From there, the defenders of the faith can establish their hierarchies and pecking orders, beating down nay-sayers, infiltrators and filthy mavericks.

But, in the free-wheeling world of anonymous art, art without label, who is to say what? The singer speaks first. Do you like my art? Then, as he staggers, wounded and reeling, from the polluted world of custom and established gods, into which he has inadvertently trodden, maybe anger, maybe wisdom will be his companion.

My advice to anybody who solicits opinion about their singing is to know where people are coming from.
 
I agree - plenty of quite bad singers made a living out of their style and sound, and totally nothing wrong with that at all. However - Dylan would never sing anything that didn't suit his voice and delivery. Neither did Frank Sinatra - who was also quite an average voice by singing standards but a King at what he did, and most importably, how he did it. Joe Cocker and Bonnie Tyler had 60 a day fag smoker voices. Both clearly spent a career singing in that style.

When I was a performing arts and music teacher in college, one of my students went on to be famous, singing all kinds of styles and rich. She was a cow too, but that;'s a different story. We hated each other and I can't claim any of her success came from me. There was one other student. He was musically bereft. He could not sing in tune to save his life, and his voice was simply not pleasant. We tried. We all knew his career would not be in singing. How wrong we were. He sings for a living in clubs and theatres - he's an entertainer and his voice has developed into nice to listen to, powerful and perfectly in tune. He knew what he wanted, put in the work, and found a decent singing teacher to show him how to do it properly. I get more satisfaction from him than the girl who is always on 20ft high posters advertising all kinds of stuff, and being photographed in glitzy showbiz parties.
 
That's a cool story Rob.. and is proof that people can improve their voices with proper instruction, exercise and practice.

I do still contend if you're part of that @ 4% that are actually tone deaf it is a futile endeavor.

Watching the recent wave of talent shows like The Voice, The X factor, The Four, American Idol etc. It isn't always just about the perfect voice but how that person uses their voice to tell the story of the song. Now add to that being young and attractive and you have the "whole package" ..

Clearly the Susan Boyle's of the world prove you don't need the "whole package" to win if you are an incredible singer...but incredible singers are few and far between.

With regard to Bob Dylan he certainly would never have made it as a opera star...But what an amazing songwriter, lyricist and story teller. I've had the chance to see him a few times over the years...I've seen him on and seem him off.

I love his version of Lay lay lady lay...subterranean homesick blues, Blowin in the wind, Knockin on heaven's door etc... but hate his version of "make you feel my love" but then others love it..

So yes it is subjective

Can I sing? Yes you can but..........

Every bird can sing, some just seem to be more enjoyable to listen to than others...
 
Interesting how this thread started about the technique of breath support and now is people are talking about how you can be successful even if you cannot sing. Actually to me, Joe Cocker and Bob Dylan can sing. Neither really sings out of tune, they're techniques are just not how most teachers would say you should emulate. Jim Furyk is a very successful golfer with the weirdest swing ever, a swing that not one instructor on the planet would teach their child, but he is successful. There's more than one way to skin a cat, but there are "techniques" and "practices" that have been proven to help people become better singers. For these practices you need a starting point. I would think that Joe and Bob could tell you if a note is sharp or flat, even if the timbre of their voices is not what some would consider to be pleasing to the ear.
 
It is usually about a relationship between singer and listener. You can't reduce that to an attribute of the singer.

"A likes how B sings", cannot be reduced to, "A sings well".

"A dislikes how B sings" cannot be reduced to "B cannot sing".

That is like saying orange and yellow clash so orange is a bad colour.

The only language that works without argument is the language of subjectivity and relationship.
 
It can, if B cannot sing, and A is somebody qualified to comment. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but some people's opinions count more than others.
 
It can, if B cannot sing, and A is somebody qualified to comment. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but some people's opinions count more than others.

Pecking order (which I mentioned earlier) is an irrelevance. If C likes A's singing and B doesn't, "counting more" doesn't come into it. C can follow B like a sheep, on not, as he wishes.
 
It can, if B cannot sing, and A is somebody qualified to comment. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but some people's opinions count more than others.

And to take that a bit further if my Mom thinks I sing like a canary and the rest of the neighborhood cringes with tears of pain as I tweet away...the general consensus would be I suck at singing ( except in the mind of my Mom )

Surely if I want to live in that fantasy it is mine to live in but I probably better not quit my day job based on the general consensus.

I don't necessarily like punk music ( though I do like some songs ) but there is a demand and desire for that genre and bands have made millions providing that style of music.

We as a society have defined what we generally accept as good and bad with regard to singing and if you are singing flat or out of key the general consensus is "don't hold your breath" with regard to making a career / living from singing.

Though John Lennon loved Yoko and allowed her to perform with him, maybe in his own way liked her singing.... her painful squeeking wasn't going to go platinum...

As Musicturtle pointed out this thread has derailed from the OP that implied breath technique may help people who don't think they can sing ...sing.

That took a turn when it was pointed out that there are certain unfortunates that will never be able to sing no matter what they do.

Breathing from the diaphragm is absolutely helpful in getting a full voice but there are many other things that contribute to a great vocal performance as well, breathing is just one of the parts in that mix. If you are tone deaf or tone / pitch impaired breathing from your diaphragm is only going to increase the volume of an out of tune vocal.
 
If you are talking about the chances of making a career out of singing, then I agree: the opinion of a qualified person with the appropriate experience "counts" more.

But we know, even there that it can be very hit and miss. Rob A, has already given a personal example.
 
The argument about famous, successful, singers who 'can't sing' comes up quite a bit, often in a denial defence,
but I don't think it really works.

Dylan and Cohen and guys like that famously have, let's say, unique voices, but were very musically and melodically aware.
They're also two great examples of poets before singers so, to a lot of people, the voice isn't that big a deal anyway.

I think it's entirely possible that someone with a strange, weird, unique, even non-tuneful, voice can make it as a singer,
but novelty acts aside I can't really think of any/many who we can argue aren't musical or very melodically aware.
 
To Steen's point

Point out 1 successful tone deaf singer. I can think of not a one.

No matter how great of a poet you may be if you lack a musical and melodical aptitude ( of which tone deaf people have neither) you're not going to be able to create music that is appealing to the general public.
 
Rather like Morrisey then? Can't write a decent tune that he can sing on the Half a dozen notes he seems capable of.

Dude! I'm an old dog from the 70's but I dug the smiths and saw em live...Dude was actually very excellent live...I mean he's got a weird style but the guy actually has quite a nice range and sang very well live...a gazillion miles from tone deaf..

YouTube

And even now pretty damn fine singer...

 
His tour manager asked me if I wouldn't mind facing the wall in the wings, in case he made eye-contact. I asked if maybe it would be best if I went and had a cup of coffee? Great he said. They wouldn't let me back up to the stage, because "the band were coming off" - they were yelling HOUSE LIGHTS - HOUSE LIGHTS, and the place stayed in the dark, until they let me back onto the stage. Without doubt the biggest tosser, with the biggest ego, with the most lickey entourage I have ever met!
 
That is too bad Rob...It's weird what fame can do to a person...It's a strange position to be in I suppose being adored and loved by so many unconditionally...can really screw up your head like you're something special / royalty.

I have to say the performance I saw at Dodger stadium was exceptionally good and eerily freaky. He commanded the stage like a Freddy Mercury , Ian Anderson..powerful....like he'd made a deal with the devil...Lightning from the sky suddenly was cracking over the back of stage in time / sync with the music.. but no rain.....it was surreal
 
One of the best music shows I've worked on during the year featured Marty Wilde - who must be in his 80s - but can still sing, move well and play his guitar. Nice guy too. Musically a really tight band and so easy to work with.


I DO have a recording of someone who is truly tone deaf. I will stick it up if anybody really wants to hear it, but it is a bit sad. He cannot hear he is not just out of tune, but in totally what wrong key - if he even understands what a key is.
 
Having troubles singing?

Having troubles singing? I saw this thread headline and I thought I could maybe help..

I've been singing for a mighty long time from stages and studios and track a lot of people from pro's to amateurs. Much of what you get out is based on your familiarity of the lyrics, the key of the song, good levels and most importantly: your level of comfort. Here's some tips I give to people that really seem to make all the difference:

1) Relax. You are not going to sound good if you're tense or apprehensive. Let the good times roll; have fun with it, only you can be you. There are 'personality' singers and there are technically proficient singers, most good/great ones are both. There are also technical considerations, but they are less important, such as:

2) A key you can operate in; the timbre and pitch of your voice and the style of music you're in make a lot of difference. If you can talk, you can sing, but starting in a very natural key for you will help build confidence.

3) Some people either monitor too loud, too soft, and/or put a bunch of effects on their voice - a little goes a long way - get the volume you are working with right, you should be able to talk and hear yourself without strain. Also, this is a biggie, some people sing flat when they are in headphones - there is a very easy cure for that, and it's a cheap set of 'DJ' headphones that have only one speaker/earpiece, which is better/easier than taking one side off and plastering it to your head while you try to relax... When you can hear yourself in the room along with the music, good things are going to happen.

4) I think a big mistake people also make is trying to emulate someone else. Uhhh.. don't? Only you can be you, and that's what makes your performance interesting and makes some of the MOST identifiable singers identifiable; everyone from Dylan to Hendrix to Stevie Ray to Bono to Sinatra to David Lee Roth to Jack White to Thundercat to George Thorogood to George Strait. You know who it is, and you have to let who your are and what's inside you to come out as naturally as possible.

5) Autotune is not your friend. Unless you are going after a more robotic, modern feel/sound, you know the cure for a pitchy line? Easy. Sing it again.

6) Just you and a mic = KNOW YOUR SONG. If you're struggling to remember lyrics or song form, I promise you, you will have a tough time getting the performance you want.

7) Sing along with yourself and comping tracks. I'm already back to number one here, which is relax. You'll get there, but something that also helps is to sing through your song and then sing to the track with that version - you'll see where you're having problems, and will likely top it. Comping tracks has been an industry norm since the beginning of multitrack, and even then, before multitrack, they would still chop up tape to get to the best possible end product.

8) Emotional connection. At the end of the day, we listen to music because we connect to it on some level. Tell us a story we haven't heard that means something and you are 100% in business.

Here's rules I set for myself when tracking, which are simple: I have to be in a pretty decent mood (harder than it looks), close to zero stress (excitement is good, particularly when I have awesome lyrics to a good, solid song) I give myself three takes - if I don't have it by then, I never had it to begin with. Sometimes I go back later because I think I can top it, and when you think you can, that there's room, you will. If I'm even REMOTELY struggling with a key, ya know what I do? I change the frikkin' key (thanks modern DAWS!) and we replay the instruments later. I put scratch vocals on a song long before most solos are begun, so this is not an issue for me, per se, but I also know not to even write something in a key I'm going to get my ass kicked in.

I hope this helped, I know this is a highly personal thing to get to, but with a lot of practice, you are going to get a lot better and once you start getting some confidence, the sky's the limit.

Now quit reading crap online and go make some music we want to listen to! :)
 
Having troubles singing? I saw this thread headline and I thought I could maybe help....

4) I think a big mistake people also make is trying to emulate someone else. Uhhh.. don't? Only you can be you, and that's what makes your performance interesting and makes some of the MOST identifiable singers identifiable; everyone from Dylan to Hendrix to Stevie Ray to Bono to Sinatra to David Lee Roth to Jack White to Thundercat to George Thorogood to George Strait. You know who it is, and you have to let who your are and what's inside you to come out as naturally as possible... :)

This is a biggie in my book. Every day you don't sing as yourself puts you three days further behind where you should be.
 
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