forget verse/chorus/verse/chorus/verse/chorus/verse/chorus/verse/chorus/

WEBCYAN

WEBCYAN

New member
I was riding in my car tonight and as I was flipping through the stations on the radio I came to a classical music station. After 5 minutes of listening I started to sing over it with whatever came naturaly. It was very eerie. I was in a very introspective mood at the time, but for some reason every vocal melody that I sang against the music fit and was very eerie sounding. I had never heard the particualr song before but its as if I knew what notes were playing before they played. I never once hit a flat note.
That got me thinking...
Most music out there now is based on a simple ABABCAB structure. The entire progression is based on a pattern. I find that to be a rather cold and calculated way to express art.
From now on my songs will progress based on the same dynamics as classical music. The progression will be 100% based on emmotion. There might be repetion that could be called a "chorus" or "verse" but only if it works for the music.
Right now I just have so many ideas running through my head. Its a little frusterating that I dont know exactly how to put it into a real form..like music.
Anyway, just though I'de share. I'll post my songs once I complete the whole album...

My goal is to make my music the most emmotional thing youve ever heard in your life. It wont make you "shake your booty" or "rock out". I want to write music so powerful that it will litterally make you scared to death, put you in a state of incredible sadness, be wonderfully hopeful, question everything youve ever known, make you wonder about your own existence, or any emmotion you can think of.
Just wait for the CD, hopefully you all will like it. ;)

I feel like Im finally getting somwhere with this whole songwriting thing.

When you listen to really good classical music and block out the rest of the world while youre listening it is truly the most emmotional music ever made. There hasnt been much rock music thats come close. Tool did at times, but not to the same extent at all. APC, Coldplay, etc have tried and came close too. I want to take it to the next level.

Anyway, enough ranting.../
 
OK, I apologize. Its late and I've had a rough night. I didn't mean to derail your thread, Cyan.

I know what you mean, too. I look back at when I started playing and writing and the arrangements I had were so much more interesting then the crap I pound out now. Some things I have don't do the ABABCAB thing, but I'm kinda shocked at how many do.

I think that part of was that back then I didn't have a lot of song fragments that flowed together yet. I just created bridging pieces to make them work and that got me inspired to take the song in yet another direction. I also was inspired by learning new chords. Always had to write a new song to use the new chord!

Today, I'm good enough at playing that I can just play what I want to hear without too much work. And most of what I hear is that dratted ABABCAB. Most folks who hear it think it sounds OK, but I start to feel like a broken record. Oh look! Yet ANOTHER standard arrangement in G! (yawn)

I'm glad you brought it up because I probably would have ignored the icky feeling I've been getting about that recently.

Take care,
Chris
 
Yes, there is a lot of sameness in ANY kind of music. But it doesn't bother me one bit that popular music(of any genre) has very few forms to use. Let's face it, there's AABA, verse chorus with or without a bridge, AAA and maybe a couple more. But I don't think the average person listening to a song ever considers this, only songwriters.

Nor does it bother me that stories in the newspaper have the
same elements, a headline, a lead to grab you, ect. Or have sections that are called the same thing(the two local papers
both call their job section "career builder" for instance). Or in a
story or movie, the same elements will be used. I don't think the answer is to mess with the form but rather to put a better story, a better written song, a stronger melody in. I'll let somebody else reinvent the wheel. As a recovering drug addict, I've spent too much time putting form over content.

Repition is used because repetition works. People like what they know. They like songs that, when they've heard just a couple of times, is indelibly etched in their brain. I am no way, no how,
a fan of the Spice Girls. But the first time I heard their big
hit that starts with "tell you what I want, what I really really
want", the melody was etched in my brain, both that intro and
"if you wanna be my lover"...ect. Knock it for being light weight or whatever, I think the song did its job.

If you are looking to make new forms of music, new elements,
good luck in your quest. I've got my hands full just trying to say
something that hasn't been said quite that way before or a melody that is interesting and original.

PaulB
 
Cyan , I agree and I support you in your efforts. I think more people should start thinking out of the box. The box is boring, the box is not the truth, but the box is safe and that's why it's there.

I think I'll start my next song about the box.

The box is boring
the box is not the truth
but the box is safe...............maybe ill just start with that for lyrics

I would also like you to read a post in another audio forum about classical and rock music and the nature of the two. However, the page is down right now so I am unable to get the url and cannot remember it because of excessive slashes and dots... when I'm able to get the page back up I ll come back and drop the link here for you.

-Evan Keogh
 
Outside the BOX

That style of composition is called "Through-composed" Instead of A-B-A-B-C etc you end up with A-B-C-D-E-F........etc with no repeating sections. This lends itself well to narrative writing, or storytelling where development of the story line of the lyric is most important. It was used a lot in the 18th and 19th centuries
and even today by "Serious Composers" which means guys who have PhD's and teach in colleges and universities and aren't interested in radio play.
chazba
 
forget verse etc

Hey web Ever thought about writing songs with dodgy spelling I think you could write a number1 hit your a natural
 
Another thing that is vey common in classical music and is hardly used in euh... radioplaymusic is variation. Well, sortof. Variation is used, but not to the same extent as in classical music. Even very distant variations of your 'theme' will make it more coherent as a whole... Retrograde, inversions, ... These kinda things...
 
Ahhhh, the Pop 40 formula for radio success! AABA, or slight variations of that from, is a calculated formula to get you onto the radio. Forgive me for saying this...Classical Music is intellectual, and top 40 is for people with short attention spans. I won't go into great detail, but listen to Mozart, then listen to Speared Brittany...Which one will be listened to in another hundred years?

Peace,
Dennis
 
I think classical is classical and pop is pop. The art of musical configuration( as defined in the Oxford dictionary)is without doubt a unique formula held only by such classical greats as Mozart,Beethoven,Greig,and John lennon. When the formula is altered to aabcda or even aabbcda then confusion reigns and the lunatic is let loose from the asylum.
 
Then get out yer straight-jackets, boys...

People have been writing songs with alternate forms for a long time. Roy Orbison and John Denver both have songs with no verses or choruses at all - they just go from beginning to end with no repeating sections. Or listen to Escape by Journey. How about Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen? Hundreds of examples.
Now if you're talking pop music, well that's a form of music that is based on a formula. Or take the blues for example: it's based on a IV, V, I progression. If you step outside that very far, it ain't the blues no mo'.
In fact, you could say there are only really two kinds of music: classical and ethnic. Classical is music in it's purest form, where one can draw from any scale or any form, and use any of our twelve notes at any time. All other music is ethnic, and must fall within certain parameters. Examples of ethnic music: Polka, Rock and Roll, Blues, Greek, Flamenco, etc etc etc.

Aaron
http://www.aaroncheney.com
 
roy/john

mmmmmmm Roy(pretty woman) orbison and John(country roads)Denver. I see what you mean!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FK
 
Yes, yes... I knew even as I was typing their names that someone wouldn't be able resist a joke at their expense. They were both kind of goofy personalities, but like it or not, they wrote some unforgetable songs. You were able to name two of them right off the top of your head. Sort of like Barry (Copa Cabana) Manilow.
And they both used unusaul song forms on occasion, which was my main point.

Aaron
http://www.aaroncheney.com
 
plants that have owners that listen to George Gerswhins "Rhapsody in Blue" grow twice as fast, twice as big and also grow towards the speakers...whereas the plants that I own.....they all get to listen to stuff like Hendrix and Nirvana all day long and even if I don't forget to water them they die (or at least don't grow as big and as fast as those other plants and they alos grow away from the speakers)
 
A long time ago in a far away galaxie a young knight grew a plant which was exposed to nothing but Hendrix,Cream and Jim Morrison. It turned out to be a wonderful plant. The grow-light and fertilizer helped some.
c...
 
Guns n'Roses :D also wrote some 'epic' songs with a progression throughout the song. Listen to Coma or November Rain for example.
 
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