Britney Spears, 'N Sync and others

D

Dimmi

New member
Now, a lot of people say they "suck."
But they seldomly get down to what exactly "sucks."

THE LYRICS

As far as lyrics come, they are, for the most part, crap. I'd have to agree. Sounds like my 13 year old sister wrote 'em all ;-) (who the heck writes them anyway? I'd love to meet one of those people).

THE MELODY/CHORDS

This is where I don't understand most folks. The melodies are catchy. Especially the ballads. In fact, I'd rather listen to a guitar solo doing out the same melody on a record than one of those puppets screaming out Antares Autotuned cheap bullshit lyrics. I think it'd be cool as hell if some of those big labels released just instrumental versions of their artists' CD's. Like...exactly the same CD, but with guitar instead of the voice, on every track. Heck, I WOULD probably BE BUYING THOSE CD'S.

THE PERFORMANCE

There are people that think singing like Britney is easy. Well, to those people I always say...get your ass out there and see if you can do better. And then, NOTHING comes without TRAINING. It IS possible for someone with little natural talent to become a good singer by means of a lot of heavy TRAINING. Most of what is perceived by a casual and ignorant listener as TALENT is actually nothing more but EXPERIENCE.

THE ARRANGEMENT/SOUND

Everything is top-notch. Evidently, somebody with a LOT of experience spends frickin hours on those mixes. Great job. Great sound. Sure, they use a lot of expensive stuff. But who said that's bad? It gives 'em flexibility, which IS one of the keys to turning what's in your head into a finished mix.

MY CONCLUSION?

Lyrics are crap. I dunno about the rest.

Hey, I'm ready for a flame war.
 
Here's what I can offer

Hey Dimmi,

I will agree to a point.

Lyrics:
Often insipid, sometimes nauseating. (Have you listened to the newest Britney Spears? The lryics are among the worst ever recorded.) They aren't always terrible, but they are almost always very cliche. (By the way, I think it should be against the law to print your lyrics on your CD insert if they suck, or if they are so full of dead cliches we have all heard 1,000,000 times that we can recognize them without help.)

Melody/ Chords:
I will even agree w/ you on this. They are very catchy, and beautifully crafted, BUT NOT BY THE "ARTIST". The heros here aren't Britney Spears and 'N Sync, but the person whose name is a microscopic foot note buried deep within the liner notes (which usually are filled with the above mentioned insipid lyrics. )

Performance:
<<Most of what is perceived by a casual and ignorant listener as TALENT is actually nothing more but EXPERIENCE. >>
Once again I agree. Your absolutely right that TRAINING can even improve the worst of us. But once again, the hero here isn't the "artist", but the gaggle of vocal coaches, dancing instructors, diction tutors, etc that the label hires to coach their "star". (not to mention, fitness trainers, hair and makeup people, wardrobe people, and {gasp} surgeons. ) And thier names don't even get to the liner notes. And I think you are underestimating the amount of doctoring that goes into "enhancing" the performance. To paraphrase Geddy Lee: "All this machinery making modern music....it's really just a question of your honesty....but glittering prizes...shatter the illussion of integrity".

Arrangement/ Sound:
Once again, not the "artist's" work. Credit a million other people.

Conclusion:
Where is the "artist's" creation? The "artist" is nothing more than a beautiful, hand picked face on 1,000 other people's work. I don't think it is the songs people hate, as much as the "product" we are being sold. The Grammy's look like a freaking Victoria's Secret catalogue anymore!

Aaron
http://www.aaroncheney.com
 
Aaron, I get the impression that you believe unless "the artist" writes, arranges, produces, sings, just flat out does everything, it takes away from their credibility....I hope not too many people read this, but Im giving Britney Spears credit where credit is due...shes a good singer and a good entertainer ( and probably a great fuck)....it isnt by luck that she is where she is....her success didnt happen over night...she worked to get where she is.....and if her songs sound like a 13 year old could have written them, ask yourself what is her target audience....the kids that buy her CD's relate to what she is singing...whats wrong with that?

I know alot of guys in the home construction business....when its time to do the foundation, they call in the concrete guys...when its time to do the sheetrock, they call in the sheetrockers...when its time to do the roof, they call in the roofers...etc. etc....anyone get my point?....
 
But they also don't call the finished product "House, by Joe Sheetrocker" they call it "House, by Gidge Construction"

A bit more honest that way...
 
The quality of lyrics and music could be discussed forever. Even if we point out exactly what is crap and why we think it is crap, someone will always say that it's 'harmless' and 'it's for the kids', 'leave her/him/them alone' yada yada yada...

While Britney Spears, N'Sync etc IMHO could slip through as ever present mainstream music recyclers with the aim to make money/be famous, i still think the way they and their record companies try to achieve this sucks big time.

I found something interesting a while ago and posted it here, but in the wrong forum i guess since the discussion i was aiming for never took off. Maybe the Songwriting forum isn't the right forum either, but the discussion being the quality of Spears, N'Sync and their peers i think this should not be overlooked.

Check it out here:

https://homerecording.com/bbs//showthread.php?s=&threadid=25882

micmac
 
The thing I hate about Britney, Nsync & Backstreet Boys is that you KNOW they don't particulary like the music they sing. They know it's a short term great monetary payoff and when they have made their money then some of them may actually start to make decent music that they really believe in.

PLEASE don't tell me that the Backstreet Boys actually enjoy their fan base being 13 year old girls, I'd bet a million dollars they'd rather have 20 something male & female audience that appreciate their work.

They see it as a job nothing more nothing less. not liek most artists who do it to make original high quality meaningful songs.
 
My Point exactly.

Assembly line music.

I don't think that "the artist" has to be the sole contributor to every facet of their work, but I do think they have to contribute to SOME facet of their work. In fact, I think one attribute of a great artist is the ability to choose collarborators that will bring complementing elements to their vision. There is a big difference between a "musician" or an "artist" and a "singer".

As for hard work, I agree that they work very hard, but I completely dismiss it as a reason for their success. Every single one of us works hard, and does the best we can with our 24 hours (most of us, anyway), so it is not the determining factor. The difference is opportunity. (The old axiom of "it's not WHAT you know, but WHO you know" is still true, but in show biz it should be ammended to read "it's not who you KNOW, but who you're RELATED TO".)

I also think Royston was correct. For these people, this is just a means to an end. They know their careers will be short, and they are getting what they can out of it, hoping it will lead them somewhere else, or at least make them financialy secure. Who can blame them for taking advantage of an opportunity?

But as for me, I much prefer to listen to music with some kind of soul and integrity, written and performed by someone that perhaps really experienced the emotions they are singing about, and has a passion for what they are doing.

And I happen to love "Millenium" by BSB. ARRRGGHH!!! I hate myself.

Aaron
http://www.aaroncheney.com
 
*sigh*

one of the things we can never fix, is the overrated pop music. First of all, it'd be nice every once in a while to write your own music. Second of all, theres a difference between good melodies and thirds, or cheesy chords. Nsynce, brittney and all do that in my opinion. Last but not least, they just all suck at singing to begin with (or most). Listen to r. martin, b. spears, b boys and nsync. All of em used to suck except ricky when he was a boy and maybe one or two from the others. The only one i give credit to is Christine Aguelera even though i get sick of her. They all get enough money to train thereselves. Listen to natural talent in a vocalist. Download ANY songs by Finger Eleven.
ANY songs by Dream Theater.....for instrumental talent rather then vocal talent.
download any songs by Pennywise. For not exactly great song writing but knowing how to write to please a crowd or get you to like it rather then genius. not to mention all 3 have phenominal drummers, bassists, and guitarists. Finger Eleven's guitarist isn't the best in the world, but fits PERFECTLY in with the band with his catchy lead backround guitars.
 
Aaron, what would you do if a record company comes up to you, tells ya "hey son, u can play, u can sing, we like the look, but your songs suck...we'll record you, but we bring in songs"......
 
Roktuk said:
What exactly sucks? ....... No Soul. Assembly line music.
Click to expand...

I agree 100%! But, then again, this is something that's been around for awhile. The 80's and 70's had plenty of heartless overproduced pop... I'm kinda getting used to it. Not everyone's into punk like me.

The recording industry in general is a beast. At least with these bands, we know up front what they are and the industry isn't trying to slip in some souless crap onto a popular trend like the did with metal and grunge.
 
would u (anyone) compare this pop situation (Britney, N'Sync,etc) to the country music scene in Nashville? How many "artists" there write or play instruments or do anything on their albums? Seems like mostly outside songwriters, session musicians, etc....
 
On pop trash...

It's funny; I was going to start a thread about pop music today, and then I saw this. I'm actually still going to start the thread, because there were some other things that I wanted to talk about, but...
You hear it all the time.
"Britney sucks!"
"_I_ could have written that song!"
"Pop music is garbage!"

I have a few thoughts on this. Pardon me if I ramble a bit.

A lot of people characterize the pop of the '70s and the '80s to be heartless and overproduced. I'm not sure I agree there. Granted, there are plenty of songs that "say nothing to me about my life", and make me want to "hang the blessed DJ", but can you even lump Duran Duran in the same category as the Backstreet Boys? Maybe you weren't thinking of Duran Duran, but they always seem to be the poster boys for everything that people hate about the music of the '80s.
And I'm telling you, I just don't see it. Duran Duran writes and performs their own material as a BAND. The unrelated Taylors, forming the instrumental core of the group on bass, drums, and guitar, were extremely gifted musicians. John and Andy, on bass and guitar respectively, eventually split the group, largely because the music they were playing didn't showcase their abilities. Have you ever heard "Some Like It Hot", by The Power Station? Blistering guitar solo on that one, eh? Guess what? Half of The Power Station IS DURAN DURAN. Current guitarist Warren Cuccurullo is a technical powerhouse, too. Not the kind of guitar style that I would want to play with, but he's got all the technique you could ever want.
Add in sonic wizard Nick Rhodes, and Simon LeBon, who is at times an extremely gifted lyricist, and you've got one heck of a band.
Or take the poster boys for the '70s, the Bee Gees. Not my style of music, really. But one HELL of a songwriting team, for sure!

I'm rambling already, aren't I?

"I could have written that song!"

Now, I'm not hearing that claim from any of you, but it does come up in my day-to-day conversation from time to time... my usual response is, if you can write the next #1 chart smash, DO IT. Perfectly crafted pop is not easy to do. Now, I'm only speaking about the very best of current pop. My collaborator and I recently looked over the Billboard top 100 singles, and we could only count about five of those songs that we honestly thought were very good. The top ten is especially pitiful. I want to kill Crazy Town with my bare hands. Ahem, but anyway. I picked out a few of my favorite singles from the past few years... along with a few extra songs by Britney, just 'cause she's the '90s posterchild.
"Genie In A Bottle", Christina Aguilera
"Bye Bye Bye", N'Sync
"Larger Than Life", Backstreet Boys
"Jumpin' Jumpin'", Destiny's Child
"Born To Make You Happy", Britney Spears
"I Will Be There", Britney Spears
"Baby One More Time", Britney Spears

All of these songs have a lot in common. The lyrics are garbage, although I do like "Born To Make You Happy". That may not be an objective opinion, though. Because, uh, I can relate. The production and the arrangement are not just good. They're PERFECT. Damn right, it's slick production. But I guess that's what I would want, if I were unleashing an album upon millions of potential listeners. If I'm complaining about how my album sounds, how am I supposed to expect anybody else to like it? But hey, there's a place for everything. In my record collection, Britney can sit next to Led Zeppelin's half-hour tornado from January 31, 1969.
And the melodies... oh, my. They're catchy! That's what sells these songs to me. To me, a song's melody is the single most important thing. Britney's hot, that's for sure. But I'd think of "Baby One More Time" as one of the catchiest songs ever if she looked like Yoko Ono pre-surgery. :)
I think I'm losing my point...

Yes, these songs are written by songwriting teams, not the artists. And I DO respect an artist a lot more if he or she writes his or her own material. But tell me, is, say, the Backstreet Boys formula any different from that of the Jackson Five?
Now, there could be some arguments here. To me, the talent of the Backstreet Boys isn't proven. You can hide a lot of things nowadays. In 1968-1972, when the J5 recorded the bulk of their hits for Motown, you couldn't do that. And the J5 were competant instrumentalists - Jermaine and Tito, anyway. Plus, of course, their lead singer was only probably the best performer and vocalist since Elvis. PLUS, upon leaving Motown they proved that they could write their own material and still have it be popular. A lot of people forget their Epic Records era.
But still. :) The Motown formula was the blueprint for modern pop music. Find raw talent, groom it, refine it, and write hit songs for it. And yet, I don't hear anybody putting down the Jackson Five, Diana Ross and the Supremes, or the Temptations.

Is Britney Spears being exploited? Damn right, she is. And she's a very smart girl who KNOWS what's going on. And do you know what? Maybe I'm saying this out of ignorance, but if some record industry bigwig came up to me today and said "You've got the look, you've got the talent, but we want to write your songs and run your career", I'd go for it. Music is art, but it's also ENTERTAINMENT. And I want people to like what I do. I wouldn't really call Britney a musician, but if I were in her position I'd be riding the wave. Take the money, be SMART with it, secure myself for the rest of my life. Of course it won't last forever. But, when the teenybopper audience is gone, I'd be able to take some of that money and start making art.

Whatever. :)
 
pop = no talent

ok pop singers may be able to sing sometimes, however, songwriting wise, they all suck. Duran Duran might be catchy, but its the easiest to write up most basic licks you'll find in every other song that they have. That goes for britney spears. They all use basic chord progressions like circle of 5ths or they use that nirvana lick from smells like teen spirit in a different order or key, and thats just bogus. Most pop stars can't write worth jack, but hey theres always someone who's different, but then again, in my mind, that isn't pop. When I think of pop I think of my sister. yuck.
 
hmmm

way harder stuff then what pop artists are writing. All my friends like my stuff =) i just need to learn to record well, cause wow, i suck at recording. However, i've written songs that are pretty nice. I've been playing several instruments for several years, pick em up, write stuff on each of em, go figure =P. IM A LOSER!! WOO HOO!!!
 
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