Many artists/bands choose to sell out (go commercial-not for the music etc.). What is your opinion towards this-any bands to shame, would you consider selling-out to get the money then fall back to the music, who do you respect for staying all for the music, etc, etc-general discussion I guess.
All sold out!!
- Thread starter Krystof01
- Start date
foo
Active member
Selling out?
By your definition, as soon as you hire a 'name' producer, you've sold out.
It's your basic artist's dilemma, I suppose. I want my work heard by as many people as possible, but I still want to retain creative control. Very difficult when the record company are putting up $X zillion and insist upon 'insert name of hot producer here' doing the record.
The producer's job is to make the songs as marketable as possible. Sometimes that means making them appealing to the 'indie crowd' to match the 'we're not part of the corporate music machine vibe' as opposed to the top-40 crowd/vibe.
As Frank Zappa once said:
'Everyone in this room is wearing a uniform, and that includes me'
So when Courtney Love's new CD sells zillions to the great unwashed, maybe it was produced to do exactly that. Is that selling out?
You tell me.
foo
By your definition, as soon as you hire a 'name' producer, you've sold out.
It's your basic artist's dilemma, I suppose. I want my work heard by as many people as possible, but I still want to retain creative control. Very difficult when the record company are putting up $X zillion and insist upon 'insert name of hot producer here' doing the record.
The producer's job is to make the songs as marketable as possible. Sometimes that means making them appealing to the 'indie crowd' to match the 'we're not part of the corporate music machine vibe' as opposed to the top-40 crowd/vibe.
As Frank Zappa once said:
'Everyone in this room is wearing a uniform, and that includes me'
So when Courtney Love's new CD sells zillions to the great unwashed, maybe it was produced to do exactly that. Is that selling out?
You tell me.
foo
Salabim
New member
i think that the term 'selling out' can mean different things to diferent people...
i think that you are selling yourself out when your CDs are being bought by people who wouldnt usually buy your music but because it is in the charts or is produced by someone special, they do...
i agree with foo though, everyone does want their work to be heard by as many people as possible, and making a few bucks out of it doesnt hurt either, but i draw the line when your music starts to change to please the new crowd...
Tim
i think that you are selling yourself out when your CDs are being bought by people who wouldnt usually buy your music but because it is in the charts or is produced by someone special, they do...
i agree with foo though, everyone does want their work to be heard by as many people as possible, and making a few bucks out of it doesnt hurt either, but i draw the line when your music starts to change to please the new crowd...
Tim
Well to expand this-some musicians are owned by the public in a way, they determine what they are, what image they should have and there are rules attached. On the other hand someone like Neil Young who creates music for the music does it on his own terms, he has the respect and is not really driven to do some things and not others.
This is subjective of course, but Neil Young goes into a studio and produces an album he chooses, other artists albums will not be released unless they are commercial, ie chart stuff that after hearing 10-20 times you never want to hear again-they are owned by the record companies and the people who buy the records determine if they stay afloat in the industry, to an extent.
I think it has it's roots in talent and the image sought after.
This is subjective of course, but Neil Young goes into a studio and produces an album he chooses, other artists albums will not be released unless they are commercial, ie chart stuff that after hearing 10-20 times you never want to hear again-they are owned by the record companies and the people who buy the records determine if they stay afloat in the industry, to an extent.
I think it has it's roots in talent and the image sought after.
Who are you?
Anybody who approaches this business, or any other business, and doesn't keep their own best interest in mind, is selling themselves out.
Some people are in it for the money.
Some people are in it for the glory.
Some people are in it for self expression.
Some people are in it for the pussy.
If you are getting what you want out of it, who cares what anybody else thinks? Don't sell yourself out.
BTW, Neil Young has managed to have it all, and I do not believe he has ever sold himself out.
Anybody who approaches this business, or any other business, and doesn't keep their own best interest in mind, is selling themselves out.
Some people are in it for the money.
Some people are in it for the glory.
Some people are in it for self expression.
Some people are in it for the pussy.
If you are getting what you want out of it, who cares what anybody else thinks? Don't sell yourself out.
BTW, Neil Young has managed to have it all, and I do not believe he has ever sold himself out.
Wallycleaver
New member
wally's you might be a sell out if.....
...you play in a band that has changed their genre 3 or more times
...when in the studio you use the words "punchy" and "warm" to describe the sound you want.
...you choose a guitar (or any instrument) on purely visual effect
...you change your hair style to look like the singer in your favorite band. (I know someone here had the flock of seagulls doo at one point)
There is my short list of sell outs
...you play in a band that has changed their genre 3 or more times
...when in the studio you use the words "punchy" and "warm" to describe the sound you want.
...you choose a guitar (or any instrument) on purely visual effect
...you change your hair style to look like the singer in your favorite band. (I know someone here had the flock of seagulls doo at one point)
There is my short list of sell outs
Prophet_81
New member
I disagree that hiring a producer or a name producer means "selling out", as Foo suggested.
On the subject of production, I have a lot of ideas. I'm hoping that none of you believe that the introduction of a producer means "selling out". A producer doesn't simply make the music marketable. I'm mean, a musician or a group can and have been signed because they have potential. Honestly, there is a huge bunch of bands that suck out there. The idea is that these musicians or groups have ability and ideas, but are inexperienced when it comes to organizing a song. We all know the countless number of bands out there that are really trying hard to "get noticed" and we also know the reasons why they won't anytime soon....
They can't play well...
They can't write well...
They can play and can't really write...
They have a virtuoso in the group that is basically the leg on which they stand...
The list goes on. Some of us recording engineers consider ourselves to be producers. Sometimes we have to take that job for the good of the product. For some musicians, someone has to be there to say, "let's try doing this...". Or "there's something clashing here..." "You know, this part is becoming monotonous in the song..."
You all know what I'm saying.
I also think that the industry is looking for younger talents these days. Look what happened to Vanilla Ice. He was a young, punk kid that got caught up in the scene and now he resents it all. I think that too many young people get on the scene and are not developed as writers and musicians. That's where the producer comes in... Face it, if producers weren't involved, many of our favorite albums would probably suck.
I think it can be a good experience for any musician to work with a producer. You pick up a lot of stuff. You learn how to better write your songs.
I have a friend who was signed a couple of years ago and on the first album he wrote, they raped him. It's true... I don't think it was because they couldn't handle "the art" in his recordings. I believe they probably just weren't very hot. I've heard the stuff that comes out of his basement. It needs some production sometimes. On his second album, he was allowed to self-produce the last, like, four of eleven songs on the record. Eventually, you gain the right to do whatever the hell you want. I guess if one plays by the rules long enough, one gets to make the rules.
Also, the producer isn't always some stranger that is just sent for by the company. Sometimes it's just a friend who's sitting in and helping coordinate.
(Sorry about the novel)
On the subject of production, I have a lot of ideas. I'm hoping that none of you believe that the introduction of a producer means "selling out". A producer doesn't simply make the music marketable. I'm mean, a musician or a group can and have been signed because they have potential. Honestly, there is a huge bunch of bands that suck out there. The idea is that these musicians or groups have ability and ideas, but are inexperienced when it comes to organizing a song. We all know the countless number of bands out there that are really trying hard to "get noticed" and we also know the reasons why they won't anytime soon....
They can't play well...
They can't write well...
They can play and can't really write...
They have a virtuoso in the group that is basically the leg on which they stand...
The list goes on. Some of us recording engineers consider ourselves to be producers. Sometimes we have to take that job for the good of the product. For some musicians, someone has to be there to say, "let's try doing this...". Or "there's something clashing here..." "You know, this part is becoming monotonous in the song..."
You all know what I'm saying.
I also think that the industry is looking for younger talents these days. Look what happened to Vanilla Ice. He was a young, punk kid that got caught up in the scene and now he resents it all. I think that too many young people get on the scene and are not developed as writers and musicians. That's where the producer comes in... Face it, if producers weren't involved, many of our favorite albums would probably suck.
I think it can be a good experience for any musician to work with a producer. You pick up a lot of stuff. You learn how to better write your songs.
I have a friend who was signed a couple of years ago and on the first album he wrote, they raped him. It's true... I don't think it was because they couldn't handle "the art" in his recordings. I believe they probably just weren't very hot. I've heard the stuff that comes out of his basement. It needs some production sometimes. On his second album, he was allowed to self-produce the last, like, four of eleven songs on the record. Eventually, you gain the right to do whatever the hell you want. I guess if one plays by the rules long enough, one gets to make the rules.
Also, the producer isn't always some stranger that is just sent for by the company. Sometimes it's just a friend who's sitting in and helping coordinate.
(Sorry about the novel)
sonnylarsen
New member
Interesting topic. . .
The real quetion is, who is in control of the music. If you give in to the machine and your record company give your project to some hot producer so that the record will turn a big profit, you've sold out. It is no longer your music, your expression.
I do not think that having a "hot" producer means you've sold out. Producers have varying degrees of control on various projects, and some of them are very good at what they do and they will challenge artists to stretch and grow and conider their work.
Basically, the big pop boy bands and young divas and etc. are not sell outs. They are doing exactly what they wanted to do in the first place, and the only art that they produce is with their voices. A true sell-out is a band or artist who create their music solely for the purpose of acheiving some other end(money, fame, etc.) and have lost the idea of creating beautiful art. . .
The real quetion is, who is in control of the music. If you give in to the machine and your record company give your project to some hot producer so that the record will turn a big profit, you've sold out. It is no longer your music, your expression.
I do not think that having a "hot" producer means you've sold out. Producers have varying degrees of control on various projects, and some of them are very good at what they do and they will challenge artists to stretch and grow and conider their work.
Basically, the big pop boy bands and young divas and etc. are not sell outs. They are doing exactly what they wanted to do in the first place, and the only art that they produce is with their voices. A true sell-out is a band or artist who create their music solely for the purpose of acheiving some other end(money, fame, etc.) and have lost the idea of creating beautiful art. . .
Commercial? It all is.
Every record, tape or CD that ever got sold is a commercial product. Whatever you state about it.
I remember when I was younger, my friends who fell for Led Zeppelin would gladly murder you, if you stated that Led Zeppelin was a commercial product. Their reason for such observation, was that Led Z. did not bring out any singles(45 Tours) , but only LP's. The only reason Led Zep. has ever recorded anything, was to sell it.
That statement also goes for every so-called non-commercial music. You can usually observe it as a product (it is) with some basic quality's missing to be accepted to a bigger public.
I am not saying that every hit is a wonder of creative craftman ship. It usually takes "best" of both worlds.
Every record, tape or CD that ever got sold is a commercial product. Whatever you state about it.
I remember when I was younger, my friends who fell for Led Zeppelin would gladly murder you, if you stated that Led Zeppelin was a commercial product. Their reason for such observation, was that Led Z. did not bring out any singles(45 Tours) , but only LP's. The only reason Led Zep. has ever recorded anything, was to sell it.
That statement also goes for every so-called non-commercial music. You can usually observe it as a product (it is) with some basic quality's missing to be accepted to a bigger public.
I am not saying that every hit is a wonder of creative craftman ship. It usually takes "best" of both worlds.
Charlie Mosbrook
New member
I am stubbern, and make music for my own enjoyment. I think it is neat when others show me there apprieciation for what I do.
I have had a lot of bad day jobs. I think I could deal with being a pop icon. I think my home studio would have much cooler toys. and when boot leg mp3s/tapes of the home project swept onto the internet. my passions would still be expressed.
I have had a lot of bad day jobs. I think I could deal with being a pop icon. I think my home studio would have much cooler toys. and when boot leg mp3s/tapes of the home project swept onto the internet. my passions would still be expressed.
Pop music=art?
If you are making music soley for your own self-expression and you don't want to change any little bit of it for anyone that's great but don't complain when lots and lots of people don't buy your music.
Making music involves self expression and creativity but it is also a craft. If you want to sell your music you have to work at making your music into a good product. In any trade you have to work at making your product into something that people will like.
There has to be a balance. You have to give your customers a good product i.e. something they like, but if you want to make music that is somewhat lasting and which has some artistic value in addition to commercial value then you also have to make music that you yourself are happy with - music that you yourself enjoy.
Music needs artistry and craftsmanship. Playing your axe is not all art - it takes some basic skill and craftsmanship so that you can create art with it.
Maybe this all made a little sense.
Tucci
If you are making music soley for your own self-expression and you don't want to change any little bit of it for anyone that's great but don't complain when lots and lots of people don't buy your music.
Making music involves self expression and creativity but it is also a craft. If you want to sell your music you have to work at making your music into a good product. In any trade you have to work at making your product into something that people will like.
There has to be a balance. You have to give your customers a good product i.e. something they like, but if you want to make music that is somewhat lasting and which has some artistic value in addition to commercial value then you also have to make music that you yourself are happy with - music that you yourself enjoy.
Music needs artistry and craftsmanship. Playing your axe is not all art - it takes some basic skill and craftsmanship so that you can create art with it.
Maybe this all made a little sense.
Tucci
Yeah.
I mean, if no one likes your music, and no one is enjoying it but yourself, you're going to be one lonely musician. I don't think any of us want that to happen.
For me, it feels good when someone likes one of my songs. Am I a sellout because I want ppl to like my music? Of course not. Every songwriter wants at least *someone* to like their music. The pop writers may aim towards the teenagers, the folk writer aims at a different crowd, the grungy writer at a diferent crowd,etc.
I think the agression towards ppl 'selling out' is more of a sense of injustice that comes from seeing CRAP on TV that is getting more praise/making more money than our own stuff that we hold dear to us and feel that has some genuine value. We just redirect this feeling toward the so-called 'artist' that's getting all the unworthy credit because they are an easy target.
I mean, if no one likes your music, and no one is enjoying it but yourself, you're going to be one lonely musician. I don't think any of us want that to happen.
For me, it feels good when someone likes one of my songs. Am I a sellout because I want ppl to like my music? Of course not. Every songwriter wants at least *someone* to like their music. The pop writers may aim towards the teenagers, the folk writer aims at a different crowd, the grungy writer at a diferent crowd,etc.
I think the agression towards ppl 'selling out' is more of a sense of injustice that comes from seeing CRAP on TV that is getting more praise/making more money than our own stuff that we hold dear to us and feel that has some genuine value. We just redirect this feeling toward the so-called 'artist' that's getting all the unworthy credit because they are an easy target.
dragonworks
Banned
I think selling out means; when you are writing from the heart it doesn't matter if the money comes or not, if so,
just one more added bonus. Hendrix and Joplin didnt have time to sell out. When you start writing with an audience in
mind, for money, then you have sold out. One person who has held out for a very long time and I dont know if she still is or not is Grace Slick. If you came from the sixties, you
would know that bands like Creedence, Hendrix, would not have sold their music to TV ads at that time, but many years and hard times have ways of changing ones view on things. In 1967-1973 You would never have heard advertising agencies using the style of rock I am referring to. The armed forces would never use rock to sell its point in those days. I know John Fogerty has no control over the use
of his music and Hendrixs dad has finally won control over his and I think this accounts for the sudden release of loads of advertisement with his music.
just one more added bonus. Hendrix and Joplin didnt have time to sell out. When you start writing with an audience in
mind, for money, then you have sold out. One person who has held out for a very long time and I dont know if she still is or not is Grace Slick. If you came from the sixties, you
would know that bands like Creedence, Hendrix, would not have sold their music to TV ads at that time, but many years and hard times have ways of changing ones view on things. In 1967-1973 You would never have heard advertising agencies using the style of rock I am referring to. The armed forces would never use rock to sell its point in those days. I know John Fogerty has no control over the use
of his music and Hendrixs dad has finally won control over his and I think this accounts for the sudden release of loads of advertisement with his music.
virtual.ray
New member
Light My Fire
Remember the scene in Oliver Stone's Doors movie when Morrison meets the band in the studio and there's a Ford commercial on the TV using "Light My Fire" as the theme?
Remember the scene in Oliver Stone's Doors movie when Morrison meets the band in the studio and there's a Ford commercial on the TV using "Light My Fire" as the theme?
Why All the $$$ Talk
For a board about songwriting, alot of people are overly concerned with money. The whole major label system will probably collapse over the next 10 years . Make sure you like your day job, and if your ever lucky enough to make a living writing and performing, be thankful. I've been in 2 bands with major label deals, and kept my day job teaching guitar through all of it. I've also made far more money as an independant artist, then in either deal.
Selling out comes down to,
1- Would you change your music to make more money?
2- Would you endorse a product you don't use for money?
3- Are you making music in the hopes of being rich or famous?
If you answered yes to any of the above, do us all a favour. Sell your gear and take up day-trading.
Jeff
For a board about songwriting, alot of people are overly concerned with money. The whole major label system will probably collapse over the next 10 years . Make sure you like your day job, and if your ever lucky enough to make a living writing and performing, be thankful. I've been in 2 bands with major label deals, and kept my day job teaching guitar through all of it. I've also made far more money as an independant artist, then in either deal.
Selling out comes down to,
1- Would you change your music to make more money?
2- Would you endorse a product you don't use for money?
3- Are you making music in the hopes of being rich or famous?
If you answered yes to any of the above, do us all a favour. Sell your gear and take up day-trading.
Jeff
dragonworks
Banned
Jvasey, you must be young?
Actually I'm 30, which I like to think of as young. But I have know quite a few fellow musicians who are the same age, and still living off of a couple hundred dollars a week for playing a couple nights of acoustic covers a week. They can't afford a decent appartment, let alone a house, car, wife, or kids. It's nice to have a dream, but when someone as talented as Paul Westerberg can't make any money with a major, you can't leave your life on hold for the dream.
I've been teaching guitar since 18, and can make about $150 a night doing it. So now I've got a wife, son, house and car, and am able to work on songs during the day, as well as teach and play a couple shows of original material a month. I have no delusions of stardom, but I've found a comfortable place to have a decent life, all within music.
I'd encourage anyone else to do the same. And PLEASE, don't anyone think a record deal is success, unless you look like Leonardo DiCaprio, your better off doing things independently.
I've been teaching guitar since 18, and can make about $150 a night doing it. So now I've got a wife, son, house and car, and am able to work on songs during the day, as well as teach and play a couple shows of original material a month. I have no delusions of stardom, but I've found a comfortable place to have a decent life, all within music.
I'd encourage anyone else to do the same. And PLEASE, don't anyone think a record deal is success, unless you look like Leonardo DiCaprio, your better off doing things independently.
dragonworks
Banned
I thought you might be younger. I have been playing since I
was 6 and am now 48. I never have really tried to make my living off music but I would write songs for whoever, whatever they wanted for money at this point in my life, it
would be a hell of a lot easier that getting up at 5:00 am
and going to work which I am doing at this moment.
was 6 and am now 48. I never have really tried to make my living off music but I would write songs for whoever, whatever they wanted for money at this point in my life, it
would be a hell of a lot easier that getting up at 5:00 am
and going to work which I am doing at this moment.