Making drum loops sound realistic

[Greg_L]

I've never questioned the actual specific sound of a sample. That's not usually the problem...unless you're using a casio keyboard or some other shit drum machine. Even the most basic starter packs from companies like EZ and Superior use real drums for their samples. No problem. I think the point of this thread was how to arrange those samples in a way that sounds human. Yes, all that we agree on. My only comment about that is that sometimes they sound so "finished" that trying to do more to them can make them sound worse.

Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying about using non-traditional sounds for your drum sounds. My point in response to that is if that's your goal, then all of this doesn't even matter anymore. Like say you want your snare sound to be the bottom head, heavily compressed, lots of farty snare wire rattle, with a thick gated reverb. Okay, cool, no problem. If that's the sound you want, fine, but that kind of sound is so out-of-the-norm that all the tips and tricks to humanize it don't really matter anymore because it's a strange sound anyway. There's no point in humanizing an inhuman sound. If you're using real drum samples to create sounds out in left field, then just do whatever. Real drums don't sound like that in real life, even if you use real samples, so making them more "real" is a moot point.

 

[miroslav]

Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying about using non-traditional sounds for your drum sounds. My point in response to that is if that's your goal, then all of this doesn't even matter anymore. Like say you want your snare sound to be the bottom head, heavily compressed, lots of farty snare wire rattle, with a thick gated reverb. Okay, cool, no problem. If that's the sound you want, fine, but that kind of sound is so out-of-the-norm that all the tips and tricks to humanize it don't really matter anymore because it's a strange sound anyway. There's no point in humanizing an inhuman sound. If you're using real drum samples to create sounds out in left field, then just do whatever. Real drums don't sound like that in real life, even if you use real samples, so making them more "real" is a moot point.

Naaa man...maybe I just put it the wrong way..

I wasn't even suggesting about using weird sounds for drums.
That reference I made to the MJ Snare sound was just me saying how weird it sounded, but yet, they musta thought it was the right choice for that song. I certainly wouldn't have chosen that papery Snare sound. *shrug*

I never much got into over-processing to make recorded drums sound way different or using weird stuff for drum sounds.
Sure, for maybe some types of EDM/Techno...anything goes...but jusually I like the sound of "raw" drums. Maybe some compression and light EQ to fine-tune, but that's it.
To me...THAT is as "real" as the sound of drums can be...and I think you like it that way too, at least that's how your drum tracks sound to me....just the basic sound of the kit, no muss, no fuss.

AFA how shitty programming/processing totally butchers the overall sound of those sample drum tracks...yeah man, that's it, that's what really screws up drum those kinds of drum tracks....even when the raw samples are good.
That's what I was saying earlier, that some of those sample packs actually have great drum sounds...there is nothing wrong with them at their "raw" state...BUT...people then have to do them justice with the programming and processing, otherwise they will in the end sound "fake"...which is what you were also saying.

I'm with you...no argument.

 

[Greg_L]

Yes, I agree with all of that. I think we're back on the same page.


I think that for modern sounding drum tracks the "norm" has evolved into applying the best of both worlds - get a real drummer to play some real drums, record them well, and enhance the tracks by blending in good samples. Don't replace, just enhance. I think it can be especially good if you make your own samples using the same drums you used to record the real tracks. I'd give this a try myself if my ancient computer could handle it. I've done it for other people using their rigs and it worked well.

 

[miroslav]

Jimmy makes his samples of his drums , if I recall.
When I got Slate Trigger I wanted to try both the "enhance" (or replace of need be), and making some samples of my drum kit.

I have a few Snares that I bought awhile back, that I just haven't worked into any drum tracks...and 2-3 of them are really nice Snares. One of these days I'll spend a weekend sampling them and/or the whole kit....but it's like everything else, I just have to make the time to do it as there's always a bunch of other shit I also want to do.

 

[BroKen_H]

I think what you are focusing on as "real" VS "fake/non-real" drums has more to do with the good playing of a kit in the studio VS shitty programming/processing of samples...and I totally agree.
It's the shitty programming that makes a drum track sound non-real....not so much the quality of the basic samples.
That's all I was getting at.

I'd even still argue a bit against that...I can sit at my "drums" (Alesis DM10) and play into my system along with the song. I can tweak the samples and get a real sample of a real drum and bash away at the triggers and it doesn't sound the same as sitting at my Pearl set. The triggers do not pick up the nuances between flat sticking and normal hits. Cymbals are worse. If I hit a cymbal with the tip of the stick it sounds different than hitting it with the flat of the stick. Not so with a trigger. When a real cymbal is swinging and you're hitting it at different points of the surface/edge, it makes different noises. Not so with a trigger. Hitting different areas of the cymbal will yield different sounds as you go from the edge toward the bell. Not so with a trigger. Triggers are black and white...Cymbals are 256 shades of gray. It's a huge difference. Well, let's not say black and white. Let's say the triggers are 0-127 vs real cymbals being 24 bit possibility. There's a huge difference between a great set of samples and the infinite variety of the real thing.

 

[acousticvillage]

My only contribution to this fantastic thread is that I always listen to the drum mix in context with the rest of the song and add a touch of reverb on the drum buss. Drums on their own usually sound great until you hear them in the mix. I am not suggesting any more than a smidgen of reverb...enough to hear when the drums are soloed but not in the overall mix.

 

[miroslav]

The triggers do not pick up the nuances between flat sticking and normal hits. Cymbals are worse.

Well...with triggers you're adding another layer to the process, and I can see how they could affect the feel of the playing.
If all you record/keep is that performance...then that's what you got, and no matter how many times you re-track the drums, you always have the triggers involved.
Making grooves with a drum app/editor/...you have the ability to create any kind of feel...and playing a kit and recording it is the same thing, you set the exact feel you want. Of crouse, the drum app/editor takes a bit more work, especially if you are not a drummer and you don't have that clear in your head about how it should feel.

Is there a way to adjust the triggers for a better response...or do you have to just live with it and learn how to "play the triggers"...?

 

[Greg_L]

Better triggers and sound modules can be fine tuned for things like ghost notes and huge rimshots. They do tend to false trigger though. They require some intense setup, fine tuning, and you have to use really high quality stuff.

 

[minerman]

I can say without a doubt the e-kit thing isn't like playing a real kit either....I bought one (Yamaha DTX400....cheap kit) a couple months ago, & while it does give me a better idea of how things are played (and shows how much I suck at actually playing drums), it's not the same at all...But, I bought mine to use along with the midi editor to help me program my drums faster, which it did....

You can set the module to pick up ghost notes/etc, but the hi-hats & cymbals (actually everything) are pretty much the same on my e-kit, it's nothing like a real kit at all...and I do have some pretty good samples (IMO) from Toontrack, Steven Slate & Native Instruments, but it's not like playing real drums at all, & never will be IMO, especially the hi-hats & cymbals...

The e-kit did help me with my programming, but it also made me realise these drum samplers, while they're actually real drums recorded, are still a long way from having a real kit in my room....

 

[BroKen_H]

Well...with triggers you're adding another layer to the process, and I can see how they could affect the feel of the playing.
If all you record/keep is that performance...then that's what you got, and no matter how many times you re-track the drums, you always have the triggers involved.
Making grooves with a drum app/editor/...you have the ability to create any kind of feel...and playing a kit and recording it is the same thing, you set the exact feel you want. Of crouse, the drum app/editor takes a bit more work, especially if you are not a drummer and you don't have that clear in your head about how it should feel.

Is there a way to adjust the triggers for a better response...or do you have to just live with it and learn how to "play the triggers"...?

You have given me an interesting idea, though. A combination of the two. The real feel of playing with the triggers and then fine manipulation of each sample. The time to get it to sound better would be greatly shortened, and you don't get the "exact placing" robotic sound of just throwing the notes on a grid, and you can get varied sounds (as long as you have a decent set of samples). Have to look into grouping my samples by cymbal type so the same cymbal's tones are all together in one place...setup will take some effort, but after, will be easier.

 

[BroKen_H]

Better triggers and sound modules can be fine tuned for things like ghost notes and huge rimshots. They do tend to false trigger though. They require some intense setup, fine tuning, and you have to use really high quality stuff.

False triggers are part of the game. You just have to edit them out. The great thing is that everything's midi, so if you get a bad snare sound, you can easily replace it without retracking the entire drum set. The setup is still on-going for me. It takes a lot of patience to get these where they work nice, and I'd really like a mesh head set to make them feel a little more realistic...these things feel like hitting your sticks on bowls of mush sometimes...no bounce, no feel.

 

[minerman]

False triggers are part of the game. You just have to edit them out. The great thing is that everything's midi, so if you get a bad snare sound, you can easily replace it without retracking the entire drum set. The setup is still on-going for me. It takes a lot of patience to get these where they work nice, and I'd really like a mesh head set to make them feel a little more realistic...these things feel like hitting your sticks on bowls of mush sometimes...no bounce, no feel.

This is exactly why I bought my e-kit man, so I can lay down my half-assed drumming, & be able to fix it in the midi editor...While on pretty simple stuff (for me, remember, I'm not a drummer by a longshot, up until a couple months ago, it'd been 15 years since I'd even whacked a drum...) it's sped things up a hell of a lot...

Here's a cover of "Simple Man" by Skynyrd I did with some Rock Band backing tracks, only the drums are me, & like I mentioned, I did have to edit quite a bit of stuff, but I think it sounds ok....

Simple Man w/fake drums

If/when you get your "idea" setup, I'd really like if you shared what you're up to here, I think I've kinda got an idea, but may be way off.......