Wall building and sheetrock advice needed

sixfour

New member
I, with the help of contractors, am turning a 300 sq ft garage/shop into a music teaching studio. I'd also like to do some recording in there and want it as quiet as possible. And our situation in the pandemic has made cost more of an issue.

The insulation has been done and it wasn't exactly ideal. I was hoping for roxul or something similar, but because of the wall thicknesses and R values needed, the ceiling is closed cell spray foam, and the walls are 3 inches of closed cell and 2 inches of open cell spray foam. So now I really want to get the drywall done in a way that will help with sound isolation, hopefully without enlarging our budget too much. Here is what I'm told are my options:

Regular ol' sheetrock and taping: $4000
Quietrock w/ sound caulk and putty: $4800 more
Hat channel and isolation clips: $8400 more

So I guess I'm wondering what is the best bang for my buck is. I don't think we can afford both the isolation clips and quietrock. I've read that the clips are very hard to install and if it's not done perfectly, it's a waste of money and effort. It seems like quietrock is relatively simple to install.

Another option I'm wondering about, but was not given, is two layers of drywall with green glue in between. I'm guessing, though, that it would be about the same price and effectiveness as quietrock.

I've done some drywall construction myself (interior wall construction) and am wondering how hard it would be for me to add the second layer of drywall and green glue myself. Or is that definitely biting off more than I can chew?

Any other options I should ask about? And FYI, this contractor is great at building houses, but he's not a studio builder or acoustician.
 
What are you fixing the sheetrock to? Are you building a separate inner structure. If you are then I'd suggest the two layers with Green Glue in between. The first layer should be 19mm (3/4") sheetrock (which over this side of the pond comes in 8ft x 2ft planks) while the second layer should 12mm (1/2") acoustic sheetrock. This recommendation comes from Gyproc's data sheet (though they didn't use Green Glue). If you want even more isolation then add another layer of 15mm (5/8") acoustic sheetrock with green glue.

If you aren't using a separate structure then you are going to need to use something flexible like resilient channel. There's no point in doing the job unless you have some decoupling between the sheetrock and the outer structure.

Watch your builder like a hawk - in my experience they have a habit of taking shortcuts which completely destroy any soundproofing qualities of the structure they're building.

PS - I'm in the UK so I'm assuming that sheetrock means plasterboard in our language.
 
This sounds like general builders used to noise transmission between houses, or rooms, not studio construction. The thing that is happening is you are following the builder, not setting the rules - you wanted Roxul, or at least expected it and you got foam?? Insulating for heat is a foam positive, but for studios, then room within the room is the usual thing. The costings seem very, very strange. In the UK, 12.5mm plasterboard )our term for sheetrock) in 8x4ft sheets (yes, we mix metric and Imperial!) is £7. Your 300 sq ft which for the maths I took as 20ft x 15 ft requires less than 18 sheets per layer - so that's £250 for two layers. Add the ceiling and it's way, way below your prices. For a garage sized space (and ironically I start construction of one on Monday) I'm looking at a timber stud work inner shell, clad with two layers of the plasterboard and one layer of MDF, as there is need for the ability to fix heavy things to the wall in the future. This will also be my first install with strip and isolation clips and these cost nowhere near your quote, and the price I paid I considered expensive. I think this will be my 13th studio build and the guy it's being built for wants these strip and mounts because he has read a lot about them, but my experience is that building a recording studio involves an awful lot of different techniques that together provide little bits of extra sound reduction by reducing transmission. These tiny little 'extras' add up. They also cost. The biggest problem is that all these fiddly and expensive techniques and products get wrecked in an instant by leakage. In the case of the garage conversion I'm starting - which is similar to yours, but slightly smaller - around 250sq ft, the door has already been shut off from the space by a stud wall by the builder who was originally going to do the studio build. Before I start on Monday, We did my usual test of the existing structure - I closed the door and turned on a smoke machine and filled it up, then walked around outside looking for smoke. There was plenty. I'd guessed the roof would leak, and the tiles of course were poorly sealed, but as the roof frames will be sealed from the void above, this doesn't worry me, but the stream coming through the poor cement joints where the concrete lintel runs across the door frame were quite interesting. Investigation with a torch reveals air gaps. Another leak was from the door frame to brickwork join. Signs of some caulk, but clearly no real penetration. My feeling, and I don't know for certain, is that the benefit of using strip and the rubber mounts provides a small additional decoupling from the timber studding, but adding ventilation reduces the insulation, an extra layer increases isolation, and the door frame reduces it. It a fully professional expensive studio, all these things are sorted. In a garage conversion, common sense says there is a limit to how effective the total is. My system, developed from a couple of excellent text books - which often conflict in their advice, is now based on cost effectiveness, and as I am NOT a builder in any shape for form, just a keen self-taught DIY person. Hanging heavy sound proof doors, for example. My DIY is not good enough to hang a door to the accuracy required, so I cheat. I hang the door on the hinge side and then build the surround so I can keep the gap to the absolute minimum. It needs to close onto the soft strip to help prevent leakage, so I then cut the closing strips, fit the foam to them, and then with the door properly shut and latched, I push the foam into the door, make sure it is snug, then fix it in place. In my early studios I wasted so much money on an extra layer of plasterboard and then let the sound leak from the doors. I also discovered another common place for leakage is the ceiling joint with the walls. You normally build the walls, the clad them - you then put the cross members up to act as joists from which you hang more sheet material. I like to have sloping walls to prevent parallel surfaces - which works pretty well, but this then means the wall to ceiling joint is a cut edge, not the factory perfect one. Repeating the smoke test on a previous project shows this join as a potential leak. On the next build I've come up with a solution. I'm going to do the walls, and then sit 18mm MDF on top of the wall top plates and sitting on a layer of glue. I'll then add the joists on top. The reverse of how it would normally be done, but it will seal the potential gap. I can then add the layers of plasterboard. I'll then have a perfect ceiling - as good as it can be and then I'll drill a hole for the lighting cables. See the problem? In home type studios - how far do you take insulation increases when you have to mess it up for practicalities. Builders will see the hole and give out a squeeze of caulk. That's a weakness that if your back was turned you would never know about.

I've been shot down for my approach before by people quite rightly quoting technical specs on materials. I discount many of the complaints because the weak areas totally wipe out the expensive improvements. In this build, I'm also going to use my successful wall treatment. Two layers of plasterboard on the stud work side and the inside finish of the room finished with 18mm MDF. It's structural, so you can put some vertical supports up for brackets for synths and keyboards, it is very tough and you can crash things like flight cases into it with no deep gouges, unlike plasterboard. It's very dense and heavy and resists deforming.

On the green glue front, when you tape a sandwich of sheet material that has it, the noise is different. I wonder if it's really the glue, or the air gaps? I do know that multiple layers do give different results. One studio, which had a large floor area so I could lose a bit more on the wall thickness, I included a layer of light weight insulation board. It has a pretty feeble insulation value to sound, but it did seem to allow panel flex to help reduce leakage at the bass end. This studio had a stud work inner, and a studwork outer, and had a squeeze through (just) gap around the outside. This treatment on inner and outer was better than the garage style inner room, and single skin brick on the outside, which is also in line with published material audio specs.

I'm looking forward to seeing the time difference using strip and mounts adds to just fixing to the studs. I'm going with them as I want to scoop up every little extra reduction I can.

The average DIY person is perfectly suited to studio construction because they will take care and time is less of a cost. My experience is general builders hate the enthusiasts who want studios. A good example is where in one build the roof space was formed with premade, off the shelf roof trusses. To maximise available height the spec required the plasterboard needed to seal it to make the airspace in it separate, to prevent leakage was amazingly badly done. Fair enough the cutting around the timber diagonal struts was fiddly, so quite a bit of it seemed to have been done with randomly cut offcuts. As it was finished when I arrived, I couldn't check how much it leaked because of through gaps into the void. It worried me though.

DIY skills are quite basic. If you can hand saw straight, use power tools accurately, and understand the basics of studwork, it's well within the abilities of a gifted amateur. You can also change and amend the plan as you go to improve things. I've also planned this one to have some membrane absorbers - I've found a design from a source I trust for ones that use roofing felt as the membrane, and have a effective range of an octave above and below the frequency they're built to, BUT calculating in advance the exactly frequency where I get the usual bass peak from the room small size and reflections, I'm designing two that will fit into the roof void. The existing roof trusses are 600mm spaced, on centre. So I'm going to leave a gap in the ceiling and then build a bottom open cube, with the absorbing membrane and insulation inside, and then it can slot into the roof opening. I'll seal the opening with a plasterboard or MDF temporary panel, and do the audio tests. This will give me the ability to adjust the internal volume of the cube to be effective at the right frequency. They also could be removed to give access to the roof space if in the future I had any problems - if the owner wanted extra lights or perhaps even proper aircon, we could get access up there.

Your budget figures seem a bit scary. I'm assuming the price incorporates a lot of labour, because the materials are much cheaper.
 
When my own recently completed studio was being built...the contractor was talking spray foam...and I made sure to end all conversations about it before we even began them. :D
The only spray foam that was used was to fill out the small gaps around windows and doors...which does a great job.

Contractors always pick with is easiest and cheapest...especially when they bid out the complete project...they will try and cut corners to save a buck and some time.

What noise are you concerned about...outside noise...or not hearing the music in the rest of the house...?
I would think most garages have some kind of cement block very often for the walls...and the weak point is the doors, which need to be removed and turned into a proper wall for best insulation.
I can tell you that you will not have a "soundproof" room by adding just a couple of layers of drywall...but it will cut down on the sound transmission.
I'm not all that optimistic about green glue as some super noise reducing agent....but it may add a bit of benefit in-between the drywall layers...but for the cost, you have to consider if that's worth it.
If you don't have the room to build more walls, etc...you might consider mass loaded vinyl in-between the drywall layers instead of the green glue if you want to increase the soundproofing.

Room-in-room is usually the best option for improved soundproofing...but again...how critical is the noise reduction, and to what level?
I don't know why everyone gets really hung up on soundproofing...especially when dealing with smaller spaces...when the bigger issues will always be acoustics and the treatment needed to make the room sound decent.

I was considering the hat channel and clips...then I even thought about room-in-room...and then I realized that heavy soundproofing wasn't really that critical.
I don't have plans to play loudly at 2AM...and my neighborhood isn't in some high traffic, loud noise area. So...I went with heavier outer layer (this was a standalone studio)...the max pink insulation in the 8" walls and 12" roof/ceiling...and then 2 layers of standard 5/8" drywall, walls and ceiling, with the first ceiling layer being both glued and screwed, since it was a high vaulted ceiling, and there would be a lot of weight, so that first layer needed to be on very securely.

It's not soundproof...but it's not going to be an issue, and I'm focusing more on the acoustic treatment so that it sounds really good...that's the important thing.
 
A general builder is the wrong fella to build a studio. You need a 2nd fix carpenter. That is a carpenter who works at fitting doors or building fitted wardrobes etc. Even better a cabinetmaker/furniture manufacturer.

I have known builders attitudes to errors such as .... "Ahh the plasterer will cover that". Which basically means putting extra plaster/cement over his mistakes. A general builder wouldn't be known for his fine measurement work. But then you may get lucky?

Green glue the wonder treatment for sound? Never used it but there are other products that do not set and are cheaper. But then if your products are fitted correctly they will not have gaps to fill with any coloured gunk.

I used to make furniture and kitchens for a living. Building a studio is nowhere near as intricate as that work. Fitting a door is about as near to that work as it gets.

Frame work, insulation and fixing plasterboard slabs/sheetrock is basic carpentry. With today's modern workshop electric saws with laser lines where the cut will be is basically impossible to not cut your timber framing correctly assuming you can read and use a tape measure.

As Rob said........ A good DIY'er could do this work if they took their time and care. And that's part of the secret. Taking care and taking your time.

I built a timber studio. We have had to install driveway sensors because we can't hear when anybody arrives outside. Then a Harley or similar goes past on the road 30 yards away and we can hear a rumble. But all cars and most trucks no. Farmers tractor with no exhaust yes.
 
My new video studio simply cannot be soundproofed, I knew this when I signed the forms. It means no loud rock band videos, which isn't for me anyway. I am spending money like Miroslav says, controlling it inside, and transmission of it throughout the building will upset my neighbours so without losing valuable space I cannot do it. There is also a train line 20 m away which is quieter than I thought, but the crossing warning sounds are very annoying every hour!

Good discussion here. Sometimes ingest the feeling that people expect recording studios to be totally soundproof, but we have doors, windows, air vents to live with.

I agree too about the need for communications. Ring doorbells are brilliant. I know when people are getting close, and it's great to be able to predict the interruption. Seriously though, what has always worried is fire. Soundproof rooms are also smell proof. Smoke detectors that warn you in the studio there's a problem outside. I mentioned before that when I built my studio, one section of the wall has some studs missing so I can kick out a section of the layered wall. It would be hard, but I can do it, because my studio has one entrance, and if I opened it to discover a raging fire, I'm going to die. My kick able escape is crude but I can escape. Few people take fire precautions in their self builds.
 
Bang on again Rob.

The timber studio has one entrance and no windows, so I at the last moment put in an escape door only 5ft high and can only be opened from the inside.

Multiple smoke alarms and 3 fire extinguishers purchased in a deal.

Double plasterboard/sheetrock around the electric mains box to give a little extra time just in case.

Small battery torches/flashlights hanging all around in case the power goes as it would be pitch black inside there due to a power failure.

No doubt something else will crop up along the way.
 
We spend ages make studios air tight, sound tight, and forget things like phone cables for old fashioned phone lines, then discover mobile signals are patchy, and we shut ourselves in there for hours, with the ventilation turned off because we can the the low rumble. We have it full of wall wart power supplies jammed into multiple power outlets, and never turn them off. We have one way in, and no way to tell if the building has caught fire.

How many of us even have a smoke detector in the studio? I've realised I don't!
 
We spend ages make studios air tight, sound tight, and forget things like phone cables for old fashioned phone lines, then discover mobile signals are patchy, and we shut ourselves in there for hours, with the ventilation turned off because we can the the low rumble. We have it full of wall wart power supplies jammed into multiple power outlets, and never turn them off. We have one way in, and no way to tell if the building has caught fire.

How many of us even have a smoke detector in the studio? I've realised I don't!

And because its air tightish you wont know there is a fire inside until you open the door the next day. Then 2 things happen. You discover your studio has been destroyed and that rush of fresh oxygen to the smouldering fire will upset your day.

A security alarm will not just warn against break-ins but will warn you outside that there is something amiss inside the studio. Hopefully before it gets too bad.
 
I don't know why everyone gets really hung up on soundproofing...especially when dealing with smaller spaces...when the bigger issues will always be acoustics and the treatment needed to make the room sound decent.
In three words ~ family, neighbours and flexibility.

Home recorders live in a wide variety of dwellings. I've never lived anywhere that didn't have neighbours on either side and either directly above or below me. I don't want to make music that's entirely comprised of electric drums, DI and sims and purely VSTIs. I like the sound of an actual drum kit. I like timbales, tablas, bongos and congas etc. I can get away with playing 99.9% of percussion instruments but unfortunately, the drums are sufficiently loud to bother at least 5 sets of neighbours if they're being played cutely and sensitively at the height of day when there's lots of normal noise {buses, shops, people, traffic, kids playing, sirens, birds, dogs etc} to mask them, let alone as evening falls and then night.

I can record bass and guitars DI but I like the variety of sounds I can achieve on either with mics and amps. I built an isocab for my guitar amps but I still like the variety of sounds that are not isocabbed. And so on.

So if it were at all possible, yeah, I would soundproof the room that I use the drums in if I could. The sound of a "great" room and its effect on the sound of the instrument being recorded therein is subjective. The room I record drums in would be laughed out of town by many that frequent home recording forums but the drums I record sound cool to me. Time, necessity, experimentation and experience teach one how to get the sound one is happy with. And there are workarounds that make it a more viable option to mix in a shitty room if one could as a quid pro quo have a modicum of soundproofing.

So yeah, trying to cut down on the sound going out is something many of us look at and we do what little we can to achieve it. In my particular case, there's nothing I can do about it so I've had to learn diplomacy with my neighbours and also timing but that's one of the reasons why people with families and neighbours that don't want to hear guitars blaring, basses booming and drums crashing and thudding all day try to minimize the potential noise in some of the builds.
If I lived in a detached house or one with neighbours a way away, it wouldn't even be an issue. And even in my present situation, noise coming in isn't a bother except for the odd crow or seagull and even they're not really a hassle.

There is also a train line 20 m away which is quieter than I thought, but the crossing warning sounds are very annoying every hour!
The place I lived in before my current place had a train line that you could see very close to the garden of the people that lived downstairs. These really heavy trains carrying really heavy stuff used to go by and the whole house would rumble. In fact, around 2000 or 2001 when England had a minor earthquake, I actually heard and felt it but took no notice because I thought it was the train going by ! But the train never interfered with any recording. It never occurred to me that it might.
people expect recording studios to be totally soundproof, but we have doors, windows, air vents to live with.
For me, I'd never expect total soundproofing although that would be nice. I'd just be happy with those on the outside being barely able to hear sounds. With double glazed windows, we can still hear traffic and the odd scream or siren outside. I'd like it to be less than that, just sufficient not to be an irritation or disturbance.

How many of us even have a smoke detector in the studio? I've realized I don't!
Luckily, the main room I record in has a window through which I could escape without breaking my neck or hopefully my legs ! Blocks of flats
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are probably the worst place to try to record "the old way" but once the bug has bitten, I guess one stays bit !
 
In three words ~ family, neighbours and flexibility.

Home recorders live in a wide variety of dwellings.

I know that... :) ...you missed my point.

It's not that a need for some soundproofing is not important in certain situations...my point was that all the focus seems to be on that for many home studios, and little of it goes toward the actual sound quality in whatever environment they are setting up.

I also notice there are a good number of people who focus on soundproofing not because they want to avoid disturbing anyone...they just don't want anyone to hear them singing/playing due to some kind of embarrassment thing...:o...which I think is why iso-booths are often of big interest for home use.

Whatever...my point was that most home studio rooms have a greater need to be made to sound decent, more than they need to be soundproofed, which is probably harder to do than it is to acoustically treat them.

Yes...the biggest challenge is always going to be drums in any apartment type scenario...but everything else can be dealt with without formal soundproofing.
So in your own case...where you had a lot of different apartment type living situations...how did you deal withy that? I doubt you achieved or even implement formal soundproofing...?...considering that it's so hard to do in existing structures...?

The sound of a "great" room and its effect on the sound of the instrument being recorded therein is subjective.

Mmm...I wouldn't say it's all subjective.
Sure, you can be happy with the sound you get iin whatever space you have, as most home rec people usually are, because they get use to that sound...
...but the impact of great sounding rooms on certain types of recordings has been well documented...and many artists have traveled to specific studios just because of the room sound for their particular need.
There's many good recordings done in less then ideal rooms...but when the room works with the recording process, it certainly can make a big difference...of course, it also depends on the sound you are after. If you want a dead sound...then a big, live room isn't going to work well...etc.
 
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:) ...you missed my point
I don't think I missed your point. I remember you making the point a few months ago when that guy Spitzer was doing a number of threads and I meant to say something about it then.


It's not that a need for some soundproofing is not important in certain situations...my point was that all the focus seems to be on that for many home studios, and little of it goes toward the actual sound quality in whatever environment they are setting up
I completely get that. That was the thrust of my point. There are a number of situations where noise going out {or even coming in} isn't really a consideration. There's no one to disturb in an adjoining house. There's no wives, babies parents or in-laws trying to sleep within earshot when you get a moment of inspiration at 9.30pm. In those kind of scenarios, the emphasis is more likely to lean towards trying to craft a specifically acoustically pleasing space, both for tracking and mixing.


my point was that most home studio rooms have a greater need to be made to sound decent, more than they need to be soundproofed, which is probably harder to do than it is to acoustically treat them
Ah, this for me will always be the great debate. I think that it's true that it's going to be harder to soundproof a space than to acoustically treat it.However, the history of recording, particularly for those of us that grew up loving music from the 50s through the 70s, does not prove one way or the other to be superior. I remember watching a Classic Albums episode of Deep Purple's "Machine Head" and what was fascinating for me was the space they actually recorded in. It was like a long corridor of a hotel and they put things like mattrasses against the walls and all kinds of things that nowadays many forum aficionados would frown at. Nothing was recorded DI, they used amps. The actual sound quality of the album is not remarkable but neither is it unremarkable. It just 'is'.
Horslips' debut album "Happy to meet, sad to part" was recorded in a barn with hay all over the place. Again, not an ideal acoustic setting but not a terrible one either. Great album.
So bringing this to the debate, I know that the sound of the rooms I record in will always be less of an impediment because I can do things that can get around that. But I can't get around neighbours on either side hearing drums and/or loud instruments. So if it came down to a choice between being able to soundproof and being able to acoustically treat, soundproofing would win hands down because I know I can minimize the negatives of a room that's not acoustically lovely.
 
Yes...the biggest challenge is always going to be drums in any apartment type scenario...but everything else can be dealt with without formal soundproofing
That's true. And that's what I've had to develop over the years. Like I said earlier, if I lived in a place where no one would be disturbed when drums and loud guitars were played, soundproofing wouldn't even be in my vocabularly.

So in your own case...where you had a lot of different apartment type living situations...how did you deal with that? I doubt you achieved or even implement formal soundproofing...?
I've never had the luxury of soundproofing or being able to. The first place in which I actually began multitracking was built by a black housing association and it was a new build and everyone living there was black and young. So we were all pretty noisy ! I was on the ground floor and I was fortunate that my particular flat didn't adjoin any. Only twice did my upstairs neighbour {who, funnily enough I'd known when she was a kid} ever moan about noise, once when I was fitting a lock for the first time and it went on later than I expected {hammering the chisel would've driven anyone nuts at midnight !} and once when she was pregnant and I was doing a cello overdub which I didn't think would be heard as I was plucking, but she was banging away on my ceiling. Other than that, nothing. People would sometimes comment that they could hear musical instruments being played but it was never as a complaint. I recorded lots of stuff there over an 8 year period and I always tried to make sure any drumming sessions were done by 7pm.The first place I lived with my wife, the room with the drumkit was away from our elderly neighbours. There was a corridor and stairwell between us. The man of the house was deaf and in the 4 years we were there the wife never once mentioned music and we used to chat quite often. Our downstairs neighbours were young and noisy and the couple next door argued a lot and made their own noise. No one ever mentioned it. And where we currently are, we've got neighbours all around. If I know a drum session is going to happen I try to give prior warning and as ever, I try to ensure we don't go beyond 7.30 or 8pm. I did try to electric drum route when we first came here but it didn't do it for me.
I have to say though, it has depended on the drummer in question. I've played regularly with 3 guys and two of them were guys that didn't pulverize the drums yet one of them was able to make it sound loud. The third guy was very young at the time we started playing and he used to hit the drums so hard. He's developed a little subtlety over the years. But all I could do was build a stage out of wood and stuff the inside with old clothes and place it on loads of strips of neoprene, just to try and help a little to cut vibrations. That stage is on an MDF floor that's suspended on neoprene which is on the actual floor. I don't know if it makes a difference to be honest but when I built it when we moved here in 2003, I was largely ignorant. My logic was, well, I can't soundproof but at least I can cut down on transmission of vibration. Only once has there been a complaint and the guy that complained was a musician himself but he was really ill at the time so naturally, the session stopped.
 
I wouldn't say it's all subjective.
Sure, you can be happy with the sound you get iin whatever space you have, as most home rec people usually are, because they get use to that sound...but the impact of great sounding rooms on certain types of recordings has been well documented...and many artists have traveled to specific studios just because of the room sound for their particular need
That's why it's subjective. The artist likes the sound of the room on what they record in there. I've had that experience. Last summer, I was doing a vocal with a friend and we recorded it in the space that is used where she works as a games hall. I didn't realize it until afterwards when I was listening closely to her voice, but the room had this gorgeous natural reverb to it. And as she had a powerful voice, it resonated nicely. I didn't have to put any reverb on her voice at all. There are definitely specific rooms I'd love to record drums, acoustic guitars, saxophones, flutes, congas, tablas, bongoes, timbales and voices in just because of their ambience. The swimming pool at the school I work in is one such space. But I can get equally satisfying sounds in my kids' bedroom if I'm recording there.For me subjectivity is not a negative. On the contrary, it's what stops me being involved in so many flame wars because the things I like trump anyone else's attempts to introduce some kind of objective standard of what is and what isn't. Plus of course,if one person likes something, there's a very good chance someone else will and so on.




There's many good recordings done in less then ideal rooms...but when the room works with the recording process, it certainly can make a big difference...of course, it also depends on the sound you are after
Definitely. I think of music making as creating sound worlds, whether it be within a traditional song structure or otherwise and one does what one can in order to get there. Naturally, some manage to do it better than others.
 
That's why it's subjective.

Well...that's been the default answer to 99% of audio discussions...which often implies that anything goes, anywhere...and it can all be made to sound great...because it's all "subjective". :D

Yeah, OK...we can look at it that way...but I do think in many cases that's simply a self-serving argument.
It's like saying that some major band, back in the day, useda corridor with matrasses, and still made a great record...therefore we can all do the same and forgo worrying about anything formal. ;)

Maybe...but I doubt it.

That aside, I like to think that there is more to it than that. The fact that there ARE specific rooms that are highly sought after, and that deliver the goods pretty much every time...makes me pretty confident that it's not all "subjective"....that there are quite a lot of very defined spaces and also gear for that matter, that always deliver the goods. Oh sure, in the hands of some newb, those things wouldn't matter, or be a waste...but I simply don't accept that someone can capture the same acoustic quality in a small bedroom as they could in one of the purpose built live rooms of many great studios.

It's not about "can I make a good sounding record in my bedroom"...I'm sure some people can, depending on the music style, because some styles can be molded well, working mostly ITB, so the room is not as relevant.
My view is that I've done the small, dead room thing...and while I can make it work, it's just not the sound I want or way of tracking I'm interested in anymore...so OK, in that way, it is subjective, we all have our goals, etc...but to say that any difference between a drum sound recorded in a great, live room VS someone's bedroom is purely "subjective"...is most definitely a self-serving argument for many. :)

I guess the real point I was making earlier that I said you didn't get...and you didn't...but maybe because I didn't expand on it enough...
...is that I see a lot of home rec guys who worry mostly about the soundproofing...but then later end up frustrated because they can't get any good sounds in the room...and that was my point, not enough concern about the space they are recording in and/or could it even be made to sound decent if they bothered to treat it for sonics, and not just soundproofing.

That debate becomes more complex as more and more people do entirely ITB stuff...or at most, they stick a mic in some booth they built and they only track live vocals...dead as can be, and then add ambience later. My own views stem from a desire to get away from that...to get back to those days when the room was key and added to that sound, and there are many records to prove the room made a big difference...even if it was a large corridor with matrasses...there was something about the space that made it work...and that's the thing in a nutshell for live tracking in many cases, and what sets many great live rooms apart...the space, the shear volume that allows the sound to linger and breathe somewhat before being captured by the mics.
At least that's what my direction and goal has been.
Heck...if I wanted to just work ITB, life would be a lot simpler on many levels, which is what makes that so appealing to many...but I'm looking for something more at this stage of my recording life. Only time will tell if I find it, but I do already see a value in the type of space one records in...it's not all subjective.
 
Kind of side deflect here, but has anyone seen any published differences between putting the sheet directly onto timber stud work, vs attaching the rubber isolators to the timber and then adding the metalwork to the clips and then adding the sheets to that? The project I'm doing is not a huge space, and I'm concerned that the top hat and the iso clip add over 50mm/2" to the dimensions, making t he already tight space tighter? In this build, the weak areas will be the 'spoiling' of the soundproofing by adding air in/out routes. Even with long, big, lined extraction deadening gizmos, I wonder if the additional decoupling of the sheets from the timber is going to be outdone by the losses of the in and out routes? If the room was sealed, I see the benefit, but outside noises always seem to creep in with these kinds of vent - so is the tiny bit of extra wall isolation actually worth the space it costs?
 
For me...one of the big concerns with the clips/channels is that with larger wall surfaces, there was the potential for LF resonance. So when soundproofing, the usual big issues always tends to be the LF energy...but if the clips/channels were going to create LF resonance in the room, then I didn't see as much benefit, and so I switched my build to the room-in-room, which would do a much better job for soundproofing, and also not have any resonance issues.
The other issue was the shear weight of double 5/8" drywall being supported by the clips, especially from the ceiling...and if you simply added more clips as some of the suppliers suggested...well then, you lost the point of the decoupling to a great degree as the walls became more and more stiffer.

Of course...after the build started, I came to the conclusion that the room-in-room was not really that necessary, because I didn't need to worry about soundproofing as much as I thought I should...and the really big issue was that I would lose a substantial amount of real estate by going that route...which I didn't want...and I'm so glad I didn't do that.
The 8"/12" wall/ceiling framing with max insulation, glued& screwed double 5/8" drywall was all I did...and I will add plenty of acoustic treatment to both tune the room and absorb sound, which combined will give me added soundproofing plus the acoustic treatment to get a good sounding room all in one...
...and I'm just not going to track live drums or screaming guitars at 3AM...so I don't expect issues.
If I didn't bother my neighbors during the construction, when I was in there at 3AM cutting wood with a power saw and banging nails into the walls...I'm sure the room soundproofing will be just fine for music. :)

There is a science that shows the benefits of the clips and hat channel and other options...but after doing enough research, I realized that they really come into play when you have other build factors included. IOW...just adding some clips to a typical house frame, may not give you all that much improvement, but it may create more complexity, cost and loss if dimensions...etc.

So I again suggest that people really examine the needs for soundproofing...which I'm sure some situations do need...but I think half-assed soundproofing isn't of much benefit other than symbolic in the mind because someone thinks they did something that made a minor difference.
So that's why I say focus on the sound quality more.

Even in the Rod Gervais book...he says that people should really consider the need for actual soundproofing measures before simply trying to add it to their rooms...because often you won't get the level you think you will or it's not as needed as you think it is.
I know if I stand outside my new space and if I have someone inside playing a drum kit, I will probably hear it to some degree...but as I step further and further away, the sound while faintly audible, will not be loud enough to matter to anyone....but then, that's my studio situation...so everyone needs to make their own assessments.

Of course...if your building a 24/7 commercial recording studio in some downtown space, near subways and street traffic and neighbors on all sides...well, that's a whole other animal.
 
If you build a room within a room so that the studio walls and ceiling arent touching the outside walls and ceiling in any way. Then there can be no transfer of noise except through air or insulation. Wouldn't that be the best way? Then try you best to insulate the floor with rubber etc from the base of the building.

No windows but then they are only a problem any way.
 
If you build a room within a room so that the studio walls and ceiling arent touching the outside walls and ceiling in any way. Then there can be no transfer of noise except through air or insulation. Wouldn't that be the best way?

Yes, it is...but man, you lose a lot of room when you do that. So if that's not an issue, and you really need that kind of isolation, then for sure, room-in-room is the best way to go.

Every situation is different. Some people are in a small 12'x20' space...and they STILL go ahead and do the room-in-room and end up with a 10'x 18' space by the time they are done, plus they still need to do some kind of acoustic treatment inside that second room for the sound quality...but if they need the isolation, they got no other choice.
If you are a solo musician that can function well in a smaller space...it's not a big deal...but if you plan to bring other people in, or if you have a larger setup...the room(s) size(s) become very important for the complete picture...so you have to weigh out what the most critical for your situation if you have to give up something.
 
Yes, it is...but man, you lose a lot of room when you do that. So if that's not an issue, and you really need that kind of isolation, then for sure, room-in-room is the best way to go.

Every situation is different. Some people are in a small 12'x20' space...and they STILL go ahead and do the room-in-room and end up with a 10'x 18' space by the time they are done, plus they still need to do some kind of acoustic treatment inside that second room for the sound quality...but if they need the isolation, they got no other choice.
If you are a solo musician that can function well in a smaller space...it's not a big deal...but if you plan to bring other people in, or if you have a larger setup...the room(s) size(s) become very important for the complete picture...so you have to weigh out what the most critical for your situation if you have to give up something.

No offence but that's kind of a ridiculous point. Because obviously the room chosen isnt big enough to do a proper job in this case if they only have a room that after proper treatment ends up too small.

They have a choice a proper sound studio or a half cocked attempt which is neither one thing or the other.

Lotus sports car for sale..........Well it looks like one and goes 0-60mph in 3 minutes. Any buyers?
 
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