Wall building and sheetrock advice needed

My build is going rather nicely - apart from a shortage of common building items, and we've decided the inner room is going to NOT use the strip and isolation mounts because we cannot afford to lose the space the hardware takes up. Looking at the specs on the silencers in the ducting, the extra from the rubber mounts will be wiped out by the leakage from the vent system.
 
No offence but that's kind of a ridiculous point. Because obviously the room chosen isnt big enough to do a proper job in this case if they only have a room that after proper treatment ends up too small.

They have a choice a proper sound studio or a half cocked attempt which is neither one thing or the other.

Lotus sports car for sale..........Well it looks like one and goes 0-60mph in 3 minutes. Any buyers?

Not folowing what point you are making...you're saying the same thing I said.
Why is it a "ridiculous" point...?

You said it was the best way to go...and I agreed...but simply pointed out that some people with small rooms to begin with...still talk about doing room-in-room.
 
Not folowing what point you are making...you're saying the same thing I said.
Why is it a "ridiculous" point...?

You said it was the best way to go...and I agreed...but simply pointed out that some people with small rooms to begin with...still talk about doing room-in-room.

Somebody wants a studio........they pick a room which is available...........if it aint big enough to do the job then it aint big enough..............anything else is simply not a studio..............meaning if you cant insulate it properly and have room treatment then it isnt suitable for a studio so what is the point...........example of sports car which can never be a sports car.
 
My build is going rather nicely - apart from a shortage of common building items, and we've decided the inner room is going to NOT use the strip and isolation mounts because we cannot afford to lose the space the hardware takes up. Looking at the specs on the silencers in the ducting, the extra from the rubber mounts will be wiped out by the leakage from the vent system.

What is the leakage Rob?,,,,,,,,,is it fan motor noise or exterior noise getting into ducting?
 
Somebody wants a studio........they pick a room which is available...........if it aint big enough to do the job then it aint big enough..............anything else is simply not a studio..............meaning if you cant insulate it properly and have room treatment then it isnt suitable for a studio so what is the point....

Well yes...again we are in agreement. :thumbs up:
What's the point if the room isn't suitable no matter what you do to it.

Exactly! :)

That's all I was saying...that some people seem to buck that reality and go ahead and do it anyway, no matter what anyone says.
I can only assume that they believe they can always overcome the room shortcomings with plugins and engineering skill...so they proceed anyway.
 
Well yes...again we are in agreement. :thumbs up:
What's the point if the room isn't suitable no matter what you do to it.

Exactly! :)

That's all I was saying...that some people seem to buck that reality and go ahead and do it anyway, no matter what anyone says.
I can only assume that they believe they can always overcome the room shortcomings with plugins and engineering skill...so they proceed anyway.

Ahh ok. My appoligise .........I thought you were posting double dutch.
 
I thought you were posting double dutch.

That's a new one for me...:D....at least with respect to posting, but if you're making the analogy to the rope jumping thing, I get what you mean.

I only think of Double Dutch when I'm buying the dark chocolate cookies. :p
 
That's a new one for me...:D....at least with respect to posting, but if you're making the analogy to the rope jumping thing, I get what you mean.

I only think of Double Dutch when I'm buying the dark chocolate cookies. :p

No one of the meanings is 'talk no one can understand'.
 
No one of the meanings is 'talk no one can understand'.

Oh...I'll remember that.
So it does have some similarity to the rope jumping thing, which I believe involves two jumpers going in opposite directions at the same time.

Anyway...back to the acoustic treatment stuff... :)
 
What is the leakage Rob?,,,,,,,,,is it fan motor noise or exterior noise getting into ducting?

If you look at the performance of the devices to reduce the transmission of sound through ducts, you find the efficiency of the reduction varies, as we know so well, with frequency. So typical 'silencer' might offer 35dB at frequencies above 2K, it might be only 10-12dB at the bass end. So if you spend time an money on more density in the walls - with decoupling, to stop your kick drum leaking outside, your ducting has enabled a clear escape route for the very frequencies you're trying to control. In practice if you make or buy the usual products - you can have air flow, but if you shout into one end, your voice can be heard - albeit quietly - coming out the other, and popping a speaker to the input port provides reduced, but still present bass at the other.

So in this build, I'm left wondering if there's an unbalance in the 'soundproofing'. One of the other things is that the decoupling of panels from the stud work is a good move for quick install of a single sheet in offices and probably homes to stop party wall transmission, but in our room within room scenario the weight and density of multiple layers hard fixed to a timber stud frame sitting on the usual neoprene is better - and if when you complete the space, it's possible to add another layer of sheetrock/plasterboard if it necessary. What just makes me think is the notion of doing this, then punching a hole for fresh air.

Double Dutch is a commonly used phrase in the UK. The Dutch language is hard for us Brits, so double Dutch would be impossible. If you are interested in this YouTube Stanley Unwin - who was an exponent of speaking a version of Double Dutch, which most Brits CAN just understand. My guess is those Stateside will simply not understand a word. Unwin-ese was spoken by enthusiasts in the 70s, but thankfully died out with Stanley - who I worked with many times and never understood a word he said.
 
I believe they call those "flanking paths" for sound transmission...and yes, they can easily undermine what otherwise appears to be a well insulated space.
 
If you look at the performance of the devices to reduce the transmission of sound through ducts, you find the efficiency of the reduction varies, as we know so well, with frequency. So typical 'silencer' might offer 35dB at frequencies above 2K, it might be only 10-12dB at the bass end. So if you spend time an money on more density in the walls - with decoupling, to stop your kick drum leaking outside, your ducting has enabled a clear escape route for the very frequencies you're trying to control. In practice if you make or buy the usual products - you can have air flow, but if you shout into one end, your voice can be heard - albeit quietly - coming out the other, and popping a speaker to the input port provides reduced, but still present bass at the other.

So in this build, I'm left wondering if there's an unbalance in the 'soundproofing'. One of the other things is that the decoupling of panels from the stud work is a good move for quick install of a single sheet in offices and probably homes to stop party wall transmission, but in our room within room scenario the weight and density of multiple layers hard fixed to a timber stud frame sitting on the usual neoprene is better - and if when you complete the space, it's possible to add another layer of sheetrock/plasterboard if it necessary. What just makes me think is the notion of doing this, then punching a hole for fresh air.

Double Dutch is a commonly used phrase in the UK. The Dutch language is hard for us Brits, so double Dutch would be impossible. If you are interested in this YouTube Stanley Unwin - who was an exponent of speaking a version of Double Dutch, which most Brits CAN just understand. My guess is those Stateside will simply not understand a word. Unwin-ese was spoken by enthusiasts in the 70s, but thankfully died out with Stanley - who I worked with many times and never understood a word he said.

I would be more bothered about outside noise entering the studio. I did a good job with mine as i have the outlet pressed up against a bass trap. So if noise can get in it has to then go through 100mm of insulation and any noise leaving the studio has to go the same way.

Stanley Unwin was a national treasure.
 
With my new studio space...I have no ducts, since I went with the mini-split AC/Heat system, and there's only a single 4" hole for the piping that goes from the wall unit out to the compressor unit.

I do have 4 fairly large windows...but those can be blocked with trap panels if needed...though TBH, I've never had an issue here before in my old studio space, and it had three 6' wide windows. There's the occasional day when I can maybe hear one of my neighbors running their grass mower way off in the distance...but the sound level coming from that into the studio through the windows, is maybe equivalent to a large bee buzzing inside. You can kinda hear it....but not enough that it matters.
Other than that...I've never had anyone complain about my studio noise...and there have been times when I've had a drummer banging away at 11PM...or where I dimed a 50W guitar amp at 2-3AM and chugged away.

That's kinda been my point about some people over-thinking their soundproofing needs. It's like...if you're in a condo, and you can faintly hear some music playing or some TV going...you're not going to call the cops for excessive noise. It would take some loud, continuous noise, at the typically quiet times of the night, to really upset people...but yeah, there are those neighbors who will get upset if they hear a ball bounce outside...so each situation is different.

My old studio has an AC duct on the wall...and even though it's well baffled with at lest 4-5 right-angled turns before it gets to the studio...if I just stand in there quietly, I could hear some of the air flow coming from the vent...but not enough that it would be picked up by the mics.
I packed a lot of insulation around the duct, before encasing it further on its path from the attic down to my old studio space.
 
Stanley Unwin was a national treasure
I found him one mightily irritating guy. He's featured heavily on the second side of the Small faces 1968 album "Ogden's nut gone flake," the concept side about Happiness Stan and fortunately, his daft language mash-ups are largely kept separate from the music otherwise they'd pretty much ruin the album. I did a lot of editing in Audacity to get an Unwin~free version, cutting out any trace of him. The only place it wasn't possible was on "Happy days toy town" because he chats right in the middle of that song, one of my favourites. It's tolerable. Just.

Double Dutch is a commonly used phrase in the UK. The Dutch language is hard for us Brits, so double Dutch would be impossible
Holland and Britain had four wars over an 130 or so year period in the 16 and 1700s and I've long suspected that the phrase "Double Dutch" is part of that wonderful talent we've had in Britain for centuries putting non-Brits {actually, it's more of an English thing than a British thing because the English apply it to the Scots, the Welsh and the Irish too} down but doing it very cleverly with everyday things. I suspect it was a way of emphasizing that the Dutch spoke a load of rubbish {ie, they were foreign and didn't speak English} so double Dutch was an everyday way of getting at what was at the time one of the main enemies of the nation. The very point was that it was never said to a Dutch person ~ it was a great way of emphasizing a point among the people that were making the point. It was done to the French in the way they'd be called frogs {because one of their delicacies was frog's legs} or the Germans being called 'Krauts' {because they ate sauerkraut}. Another one against the Dutch is the phrase "Dutch courage" meaning booze but the point of the phrase is that the Dutch had no real courage ~ they could only fight if they were tanked up on alcohol. Which basically made them out to be soft and unmanly.
All of these phrases were like colloquial propaganda and were really effective because they conflated something ordinary and natural {food, drink, language} with a serious defect in the people they were aimed at and they took a hold in the consciousness of the British to the extent that some of these phrases are still used today.
Not that this has anything to do with walls and studios !
 
Holland and Britain had four wars over an 130 or so year period in the 16 and 1700s and I've long suspected that the phrase "Double Dutch" is part of that wonderful talent we've had in Britain for centuries putting non-Brits {actually, it's more of an English thing than a British thing because the English apply it to the Scots, the Welsh and the Irish too} down but doing it very cleverly with everyday things. I suspect it was a way of emphasizing that the Dutch spoke a load of rubbish {ie, they were foreign and didn't speak English} so double Dutch was an everyday way of getting at what was at the time one of the main enemies of the nation. The very point was that it was never said to a Dutch person ~ it was a great way of emphasizing a point among the people that were making the point. It was done to the French in the way they'd be called frogs {because one of their delicacies was frog's legs} or the Germans being called 'Krauts' {because they ate sauerkraut}. Another one against the Dutch is the phrase "Dutch courage" meaning booze but the point of the phrase is that the Dutch had no real courage ~ they could only fight if they were tanked up on alcohol. Which basically made them out to be soft and unmanly.
All of these phrases were like colloquial propaganda and were really effective because they conflated something ordinary and natural {food, drink, language} with a serious defect in the people they were aimed at and they took a hold in the consciousness of the British to the extent that some of these phrases are still used today.
Not that this has anything to do with walls and studios !

What a load of crap. They were just nicknames given to people from other countries.

To describe them and as far as describing the defects in those people. I am sure there were and still are other names that anybody with a slight imagination could come up with than the nicknames you have used.

Do you think the people of other countries do not have similar names for same and British people? Never mind what the Scots Welsh and Irish refer to English. So it's not an English thing at all.

And your right it has sod all to do with sound studio's.
 
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What a load of crap
Perhaps. Then again, perhaps not. Do you know that for a fact ?

They were just nicknames given to people from other countries.
"Just nicknames."
With all due respect mate, I consider that to be rather naive. Let me just give a couple of examples of "just nicknames" ~ "Yid" as a reference to Jewish people or "Paki" as a catch-all term for Asians in England. Neither are just bland, neutral, harmless, inconsequential names that serve as abbreviations for a language or a particular country. They are loaded words that carry an intent which has a lengthy history attached and there's nothing cute or nice about them. That many people are not aware of this or do not use the words that way when they refer to the people that the words refer to does not negate
whatever history and negativity is in those words.


I am sure there were and still are other names that anybody with a slight imagination could come up with than the nicknames you have used.
Well, yes. But that is rather besides the point because they didn't.

as far as describing the defects in those people
You obviously have a much purer vision of human intentions than I do.


Do you think the people of other countries do not have similar names for same and British people? Never mind what the Scots Welsh and Irish refer to English
Of course they do. But what I said was in relation to the phrase "Double Dutch." If I'm mistaken or way off beam, then fair enough but as far as I'm aware, it is not a Gaelic or Welsh phrase, but an English one.


So it's not an English thing at all.
Well, as an Englishman, I beg to differ. Of course other nations do it but we have away of doing it here {often most inventively and highly amusingly, I might add} that often carries a very particular slant, often has an interesting historical background and serves as a kind of continual propaganda that far outlives its original intention and scope. Few people think 200 years ahead in any real and concrete way.


And your right it has sod all to do with sound studio's
Well, you know how it can be, sometimes even the most specific conversations can lean off topic a little. Once, some years ago, a number of us were discussing something on the forum and Wishbone Ash came up and Miroslav mentioned that he always liked their album "There's the rub" and someone went on to explain the cricketing genesis behind the album cover and the album title and how they were conflated because they weren't actually connected. I see the "Double Dutch" controversy in the same vein.
Maybe someone will call their studio "Double Dutch Studios" having been influenced by this thread and no one will ever know the true origins !
 
Neither are just bland, neutral, harmless, inconsequential names that serve as abbreviations for a language or a particular country. They are loaded words that carry an intent which has a lengthy history attached and there's nothing cute or nice about them.

Not looking to take this thread in some sociopolitical direction...but since you brought that up, I have a question that I've never heard answered before, and it's one that's come up when this type of topic is discussed.

OK...so yeah, there are "names/words" that have been used when talking about some group or race of people, and much of that stuff has been around for so long, that often it's assumed to be acceptable, when in fact it isn't...like you described above.
So here's my question...why is that people who fall into a given group or race or color or what have you, are allowed to call each other those "loaded words"...and it's perfectly fine...but when someone else outside that particular group uses them, it's a big NO-NO, and everyone gets all bent out of shape...?

Anyway...it's just a curiosity...because we are surrounded by the PC Police everywhere these days...and the rules seem to be made up as they go along...so it gets a bit tiresome trying to live by someone else's rules, if those rules keep changing or only apply to some people, some of the time.

Oh...and please feel free to respond to me via PM if you prefer, because I don't want to be accused of trying to stir up something here in the thread...it's just that you mentioned it, and the question came to mind. :)
 
Perhaps. Then again, perhaps not. Do you know that for a fact ?

"Just nicknames."
With all due respect mate, I consider that to be rather naive. Let me just give a couple of examples of "just nicknames" ~ "Yid" as a reference to Jewish people or "Paki" as a catch-all term for Asians in England. Neither are just bland, neutral, harmless, inconsequential names that serve as abbreviations for a language or a particular country. They are loaded words that carry an intent which has a lengthy history attached and there's nothing cute or nice about them. That many people are not aware of this or do not use the words that way when they refer to the people that the words refer to does not negate
whatever history and negativity is in those words.


Well, yes. But that is rather besides the point because they didn't.

You obviously have a much purer vision of human intentions than I do.


Of course they do. But what I said was in relation to the phrase "Double Dutch." If I'm mistaken or way off beam, then fair enough but as far as I'm aware, it is not a Gaelic or Welsh phrase, but an English one.


Well, as an Englishman, I beg to differ. Of course other nations do it but we have away of doing it here {often most inventively and highly amusingly, I might add} that often carries a very particular slant, often has an interesting historical background and serves as a kind of continual propaganda that far outlives its original intention and scope. Few people think 200 years ahead in any real and concrete way.


Well, you know how it can be, sometimes even the most specific conversations can lean off topic a little. Once, some years ago, a number of us were discussing something on the forum and Wishbone Ash came up and Miroslav mentioned that he always liked their album "There's the rub" and someone went on to explain the cricketing genesis behind the album cover and the album title and how they were conflated because they weren't actually connected. I see the "Double Dutch" controversy in the same vein.
Maybe someone will call their studio "Double Dutch Studios" having been influenced by this thread and no one will ever know the true origins !

Or Maybe Malcolm could name his hit the same and have a skipping video.

I know some names were meant as being caustic but nicknames such as Frogs because they ate frogs legs apparently is hardly going to upset Macron more than his demands to fish in English property.

Any way this is all Irish to me and nowt to do with sound studios.
 
I'm sick to death of political correctness, and the crazy things in London with Winston Churchill's statue really wind me up. I thought I'd experiment and made a fairly simple statement on Facebook. All the people over 50 fully agreed, and all the people under 30 disagreed. Funny how Winston Churchill and Roosevelt are people looked up to by some and looked upon as imperialists/Nationalists.

The thing I find quite funny is this idea that these nicknames/terms are automatically racist. In my pantomimes we have historically had Chinese policemen is Aladdin. They'd be called things like PC Ping and PC Pong and nobody ever took offence until some person decided it was insulting to the Chinese. I've always asked people about these things. We cannot say dwarf - it offends the 7 in Snow White, so I asked the guys, and they all said why would we be insulted, we are dwarfs, and being dwarfs pays the bills. I work frequently for a comedian known here for upsetting people, so I often chat to the people he has taken the Mickey out of, and this includes the deaf, the blind and all kinds of different races - they all thought it funny. Nobody was offended and one black guy said he brings his friends to see the comedian because if you sit at the front, you get picked out!
 
Well...that's been the default answer to 99% of audio discussions...which often implies that anything goes, anywhere...and it can all be made to sound great...because it's all "subjective"
It's not so much that it implies that anything goes, but rather, that there is a huge well of possibilities from which to draw and that they all have their place.



but I do think in many cases that's simply a self-serving argument.
I agree. And I don't see a problem with that. When people are discussing what they do, what they think, what they've found to be the case, there's a huge degree of self serving. If I tell you I prefer X over Y or would choose B over Z, who else am I going to be serving ?
Everything has a context though, so it's not always as bold as that.



It's like saying that some major band, back in the day, used a corridor with matrasses, and still made a great record...therefore we can all do the same and forgo worrying about anything formal
Well, I guess some could make that argument and on one level, they wouldn't be wrong but I'd argue that the moment they limited everyone to what their experience was and stated that their experience is the only real parameter, that they are wrong.
When I mentioned the circumstances under which Deep Purple and Horslips made their 1972 albums it wasn't with the intention of saying that all albums should be made that way, in hotel corridors and barns with rats running about, rather, that they can be made that way and that the way they were made and where they were recorded wasn't an impediment to a great album, therefore it is more than possible to record a good album in less than stellar circumstances. With that in mind, if you were in a flat/apartment or close house situation, if you had to look at soundproofing, that would not automatically condemn your project to a shitty sound because there are all kinds of ways to achieve a good sound, whether it be a specific room design or other ways you have to get around the room and what it may bring.


I like to think that there is more to it than that. The fact that there ARE specific rooms that are highly sought after, and that deliver the goods pretty much every time...makes me pretty confident that it's not all "subjective"....that there are quite a lot of very defined spaces and also gear for that matter, that always deliver the goods
If one looks over the last 70 years, music, good music that we've all loved and hated in equal measure has been recorded in a huge variety of studios, halls, rooms, stairwells, combinations of all of them, all different and the science of it all hasn't diminished from the reality that a good song is a good song in the ear of the beholder. Of course some songs/albums have been poorly recorded, mixed, mastered. But ultimately, science has been a double edged sword. Because while it has progressed in terms of actual studio construction and sound exploration {for want of a better word}, it has simultaneously enabled music to be created and recorded and reproduced in ways and spaces that compensate for the absence of that which one wing of the debate venerates.
Without a doubt some rooms are highly sought after. But they're not sought after by everyone which tells me that there's a lot of subjectivity that goes into matters. Like I said earlier, subjectivity for me is not a negative.


I simply don't accept that someone can capture the same acoustic quality in a small bedroom as they could in one of the purpose built live rooms of many great studios.
That would surely depend on the small room in question, the gear used and as importantly, how.



I've done the small, dead room thing...and while I can make it work, it's just not the sound I want or way of tracking I'm interested in anymore...so OK, in that way, it is subjective
It's quite interesting looking back over time and seeing how fashions change. One moment live rooms are too bright and dead is in, next dead is dead and long live the live. And what's really interesting is that in so many instances it's the same producers and engineers that were singing the praises of one then the other. Some got versatile, some had and remained in their preferences, almost all learned to do good work in all kinds of spaces/rooms and in varying combinations.
I hear all kinds of sounds in songs and some of them I really dislike, even though I may love the song.

I see a lot of home rec guys who worry mostly about the soundproofing...but then later end up frustrated because they can't get any good sounds in the room
That's a different matter.
Having said that though, I cannot recall once coming across anyone that soundproofed their studio on HR. Many have inquired about it but I can't think of anyone that actually did it. There were some that had dedicated studios built, in some ways, like yours, and there was definitely a soundproof element because the studio was virtually a new build, either added to the existing building or in the garden or something. But actually soundproofing a place, especially just a room, is really in-depth stuff and for what would go into it balanced against what comes out of it and the fact that it would essentially be a single use space, not really worthwhile to start smashing one's abode about.

Kind of side deflect here
Actually, you kind of brought things back on focus !
 
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