studio construction: plz help

Nice Rick!

But I wouldn't put the horizontal slats in the rear.. it needs to be fully absorbent - therefore, I'd make it at least 20 cm deep and he's going to need some limp membrane traps for LF control below 100 Hz. - And just make the ceiling FLAT to the bottom of the beams with full absorption - preferably 25 mm rock wool (60kg/m3) with light-weight fiberglass on top to fill the rest of the ceiling cavity. Front and side walls need serious consideration as well. Remember - cement bunker. ;)

Cheers,
John

PS. Rick, could you attach the .skp?
 
Nomad,

Good trapping on the back wall is what you will need, especially in a concrete room. You WILL need to build some membrane traps to handle the LF below 100 Hz. I have detailed plans in my acoustics package - Sorry I can't show them here in public, as they are rather unique - they are NOT VPRs or metal on foam. What you will need is a true 'limp-bag' absorber.

Think about trapping that rear wall very well - as much as you can afford. This will affect everything that you do in that room. Most room problems are caused from poorly treated rear walls and/or the positioning of the speakers relative to the front wall.

Cheers,
John
 
i recently found a company that manufactures gypsum board here:thumbs up: i was wondering what if we were to cover the four walls with gypsum board, and in the gap between the brick wall and drywall use a layer of rockwool slab. would that make the room less reflective as compared to bare concrete?
 
Nomad,

The membrane traps should go wherever you can put them. Corners; definitely. along walls, yes.

Gypsum board is the same as drywall and is basically just as reflective as CONCRETE! - except below 100 Hz. What you need is to us rock wool / glass wool and fabric to make the interior studio walls. This will give you the trapping and reflection control that you need.

Cheers,
John
 
mr Brandt,

are you suggesting to treat the four walls the same as the ceiling?
25mm rockwool slab and 11" fiberglass insulation.. could i chose rockwool or higher density and thickness?
i recently read that fiberglass causes irritation while breathing, is there a special kind of fabric that i should use to cover it? how does one seal the edges of fabric anyway?

i am realizing that this is going to be pretty expensive, so i am thinking of moving the jam room inside the control room. what do you think?
or is it a bad idea? could i use membrane traps to avoid reflections caused by the drums and amplifiers?

is my room too small to accomodate both? as i mentioned earlier: 8, 15, 21'
if i were to increase the length further, that would really mess up the modes of the room.
also i am looking out for solid concrete bricks about 8" wide, would that provide enough soundproofing along with the rockwool and fiberglass not to annoy the neighbours?

is placing a door on the front wall or rear wall an absolute no? what if i were to lose the window on the front wall, i am thinking a building a closet behind the front/ rear wall to store gear while mixing.

what about that bare beam, should i cover that too with rockwool and fiberglass?


we're starting wall construction about a week from now, so please don't give up on me yet:)
 
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we're starting wall construction about a week from now, so please don't give up on me yet
Give up? Goddamnit, what the heck do you think we are here for? You just need to learn some patience. ...





















:p
 

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We're not giving up on you. But you NEED a solid plan BEFORE you start building anything. That's like a fisherman without a hook. ok?

Draw up some plans of what you propose, post them and we will critique.

Cheers,
John
 
ok mr. Brandt,
i'll be back

and mr. Chronicle, i don't even know how to thank you for these 3d representations.


sorry if i was impatient or unreasonable, its good to know you guys are here:thumbs up:
 
and mr. Chronicle, i don't even know how to thank you for these 3d representations.

No problem. I do it for drill.:p Unfortunately, it takes time, which I have some, but not a lot. The file isn't finished either. Lots of details that take time to lay out. And please, this is mostly for information as the axiom says..one pic=1k words. In reality, only you know what you are really dealing with here. Especially your budget. Local materials, codes, skill sets..etc, all have a bearing on what you can do. In that regard, John is absolutely correct. You need a plan. However, one thing I was wondering about is what you plan on using for HVAC?

sorry if i was impatient or unreasonable, its good to know you guys are here

Impatience is a standard feeling when wanting to see a dream finished. I've been impatient for 30 years. :)

I don't think you've been unreasonable at all either. I don't see how you could be.
 
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Hey nomadbyfate. This is how we get PRO help. Put up some ideas and let them have at it.:D
However, I have a proposal..if you don't mind.

To keep me from wasting my time, and keep your thread from being hijacked, what would you say if I used YOUR project, within this thread, to not only help you understand certain common practices within studio design, but help others as well by using the given existing conditions to illustrate possible solutions, while at the same time, once we see YOUR intent, using that as a parallel subject to juxtaposition possible solutions while showing how to do what YOU have in mind in the best way possible? Whatta ya say? In that regard, at least for the time being, I have some questions for John that may or may not have a bearing on what your intent is. However, if you would prefer I simply stuck to your intent in the future, no problem. But for what it's worth, at least I want to ask John a couple of questions in regards to this:

Nice Rick!

But I wouldn't put the horizontal slats in the rear.. it needs to be fully absorbent - therefore, I'd make it at least 20 cm deep and he's going to need some limp membrane traps for LF control below 100 Hz. - And just make the ceiling FLAT to the bottom of the beams with full absorption - preferably 25 mm rock wool (60kg/m3) with light-weight fiberglass on top to fill the rest of the ceiling cavity. Front and side walls need serious consideration as well. Remember - cement bunker.


Yes, cement bunker.:laughings:

Ok John. As to the rear wall, yes, I knew it should be fully absorbent. Unfortunately, it takes time to do the Sketchups and I get ants in my pants to post the jpgs.:facepalm::o But I have a question. As to the slat/slot wall, this has been a "standard" element of John Sayers for a couple of decades, no? Now, in the first set of jpgs I hadn't had the time to insert 703, within the stud framing of that "fixture". Nor had I the time to manipulate the slats/slots into random widths and really didn't know what depth they should be. Nor did I know if that wall should be "sealed on the back side. My reasoning is this.

A long time ago, in the first edition of Alton Everest's Handbook of Acoustics, he had an illustration of a LEDE CR, whereby the rear wall, actually was TWO rear walls. The envelope rear wall, which had a "low frequency" QRD between the two, , and a "fixture" rear wall in front of the real rear wall LF QRD, which also had a series of mid/hi QRD's as well. However, at each end of the "mid/hi QRD fixture" wall, was an opening to allow LF's to ..well, I think he explained it as "pressurize" that area between the two walls. Not having access to that book anymore..here is an approximation of what it looked like....


RFZ attempt ENH.jpg

Anyway, that is what I had in mind..ie... the "fixture" is a freestanding "diffuser"/scatterer/slot absorber with openings at each end for either just fabric, or superchunks, or VPR's or what ever. Just hadn't got that far. However, I also hadn't had time to show the whole area behind it filled with Rockwool or whatever. Also, I had thought about VPR's, but after reading your reply, well, I have a question in regards to this:
quote:
"Good trapping on the back wall is what you will need, especially in a concrete room. You WILL need to build some membrane traps to handle the LF below 100 Hz. I have detailed plans in my acoustics package - Sorry I can't show them here in public, as they are rather unique - they are NOT VPRs or metal on foam. What you will need is a true 'limp-bag' absorber. "unquote

Hmmm, not VPR's. Ok, although, due to your reply's on other forums, I assumed they were a given. Although, I don't really understand the "final" analysis of them as I don't keep up with "theoretical" device stuff very much. :) Ok, so, you have a "rather unique" "limp-bag" absorber design huh? Well, with all due respect...that doesn't do the OP very much good considering you "can't show them here". Hahahahahaha. Hence MY trying. And that's really the point. I understand that pro designers are reluctant to share thier proprietary designs as their clients pay for them, and would understandably get pretty pissed off if they paid, while you shared freely online with forum menbers. But I have a suggestion in that regard. To save you any trouble..why don't I simply "guess" at what you are talking about..and you critique them? That way..we get the benefit of your knowledge while protecting you from client reprisal. Does that sound ok? Let me know.

And btw nomadbyfate, sorry for using your thread to do this. Just trying to help.


btw, here is what I had in mind...just for reference:

CC2 with rear wall prototype with 703 and batt Full with rear wall.jpg
CC2 with rear wall prototype with 703 and batt Section.jpg
CC2 with rear wall prototype with 703 and batt.jpg


And yeah, I know, I haven't got to the "ceiling" yet.
 
hi:)
sorry for the late reply, i have been studying so i can make educated questions:thumbs up:

in regarding to the materials available, you are right about that, because most of the materials available there aren't available here.
i think it might be difficult to get Owen Corning fiberglass here. even the rockwool suppliers wont ship in small quantities. they mostly cater to industries and such, we will have to travel to the factories and find transportation ourselves.

i have a question about the ceiling though, it is made of 110mm poured concrete. and i was wondering if the people living upstairs would be bothered if i were to mix late into the night. i remeasured it and it came out to be 8.3ft. as mr Brandt had suggested we make it fully absorptive: i.e 12" of insulation. so i was wondering what if i were to build a suspended ceiling at 8ft with gypsum board: above it airgap, and below it absorption. please tell me what you think.

also, this is as much your thread as it is mine. i too learned quite a lot from reading others' threads. so by all means:thumbs up:

the virtual studio is coming together really nicely:thumbs up:
thank you:)
 
i.e 12" of insulation. so i was wondering what if i were to build a suspended ceiling at 8ft with gypsum board: above it airgap, and below it absorption. please tell me what you think.

BINGO! Exactly what I was thinking. But without knowing what your budget is like..I didn't mention it yet. And here is where a few other things come into play as well. The whole idea of "my" design is based on the premise of what YOU said...ie..
parking i.e about 32'. and the other half, we plan to divide into two parts: a jam room(about 11.5'). this is going to be isolated/ soundproofed.

Isolated/soundproofed. This implies you have the budget to do isolate the two rooms from the structure. Hence building two rooms within a room. Which I HAVEN'T finished showing. AND doing this would align with your statement here...

i am just starting out actually but if things work out maybe turn it into a
professional studio.
which is why it is so important that i get the room dimensions right.

Ok, here's the deal. Since I don't know what is available to you there, I'll simply continue drawing what "I" would do if it were me, here. However..the toughest problem is the ceiling SPAN. You would need to instal a grid system that is suspended from the existing concrete ceiling by resiliant decouplers. Usually, this system is composed of hanging "islolation" brackets, that in turn support metal channels, that in turn, support HAT CHANNELS that in turn support a couple of layers of drywall by screwing the drywall to the hat channel. The whole ceiling would "float" between the walls. Of course, this system in NOT cheap nor easy to install. And, I don't even know if you have access to this type of hardware there. But here's typically what it looks like...

Rondo KEY-LOCK® Concealed Suspended Ceiling System - YouTube

Also, originally, I showed a portion of another idea whereby you could form "sections" of the ceiling with homemade "beam" and short span "joists". Originally, I showed a ceiling that was "staggered" and could either support drywall ABOVE the supports and insulation/fabric below. I stilll would have to work out a bunch of details for this to work though. So bear with me. Anyway..yeah, if you want to "soundproof" this studio, I believe a room within a room is the way to go. However, the devil is in the details, your budget, and access to materials. In that regard, how bout telling me what is available to you there, ok? cool. I'll be back soon.
 
Sir, i think i should be the one asking you to plz bear with me. i think you must have realized by now, that i am still very new to all of this and i nearly don't have enough knowledge to make "sound" decisions. also i am realizing that it is a lot more expensive and difficult to soundproof and treat two room rather than one. i have heard of one-room studios- but i am not sure how they work. honestly i think we could move the gear while mixing. or maybe it isn't as simple..:confused:

let me try to describe the environment as best as i can: there aren't any neighbours outside the front wall, or side walls either(there are on the left side: but not at the same height.) and the nearest neighbour behind the studio is atleast 20m away. the main concern are the people living upstairs.

so here's what i am thinking-
one side wall of reinforced concrete and the other side wall of heavy brick: i found that their absoption coefficients at low frequencies are pretty close:) i'm not sure about the thicknesses though.
front wall- hollow concrete blocks
and rear wall- drywall layers

would we now be able to place the wooden diffusers in the rear wall?


would that make it a semi-concrete bunker?:p please tell me what you think.

and for the ceiling: i found this material at acoustiblok: they say it is a flexible viscoelastic polymer that has STL of 30db which has to be applied behind a layer drywall. acoustiblok.in

i just don't know if we have enough room to build a suspended ceiling. there's a company here called Armstrong: they have suspension systems for ceilings. i'll have to enquire about the costs and whether they would ship to my location.

if we could incorporate the acoustiblok material into your design i think it might help. :thumbs up:

i know that only mass and isolation stops sound: but then the 12" insulation is 100% absorbant. does this mean that it simply does not reflect. or does it really absorb all the frequencies without transmitting to the concrete ceiling above?

i am going to try and find out more about what is available here.
thank you.
 
Sir, i think i should be the one asking you to plz bear with me. i think you must have realized by now, that i am still very new to all of this and i nearly don't have enough knowledge to make "sound" decisions. also i am realizing that it is a lot more expensive and difficult to soundproof and treat two room rather than one. i have heard of one-room studios- but i am not sure how they work. honestly i think we could move the gear while mixing. or maybe it isn't as simple..:confused:

A one-room studio should work fine. The only issue would be tracking drums.

let me try to describe the environment as best as i can: there aren't any neighbours outside the front wall, or side walls either(there are on the left side: but not at the same height.) and the nearest neighbour behind the studio is atleast 20m away. the main concern are the people living upstairs.

Can you hear them from your room? When they walk around and talk, can you hear them? Is the floor above really only 10 cm thick??

so here's what i am thinking-
one side wall of reinforced concrete and the other side wall of heavy brick: i found that their absoption coefficients at low frequencies are pretty close:) i'm not sure about the thicknesses though.
front wall- hollow concrete blocks
and rear wall- drywall layers

would we now be able to place the wooden diffusers in the rear wall?


would that make it a semi-concrete bunker?:p please tell me what you think.

Yes it is still a concrete bunker. You can put diffusors on the rear wall but the depth should be calculated to suit the room and position. See my Reflections Boundaries Mass spreadsheet for help. Go to the Trap depths & related calcs tab.

and for the ceiling: i found this material at acoustiblok: they say it is a flexible viscoelastic polymer that has STL of 30db which has to be applied behind a layer drywall. acoustiblok.in

i just don't know if we have enough room to build a suspended ceiling. there's a company here called Armstrong: they have suspension systems for ceilings. i'll have to enquire about the costs and whether they would ship to my location.

if we could incorporate the acoustiblok material into your design i think it might help. :thumbs up:

No. The statement on that site is very misleading. Basically not true. Acoustics is counter-intuitive. As James Moir said, "If one thing is certain about acoustics, it is that if anything seems obvious it is probably wrong."

i know that only mass and isolation stops sound: but then the 12" insulation is 100% absorbant. does this mean that it simply does not reflect. or does it really absorb all the frequencies without transmitting to the concrete ceiling above?

i am going to try and find out more about what is available here.
thank you.

ONLY mass stops sound.. mass and SEAL.. NOT insulation or isolation... - fiberglass or rock wool.. insulation absorbs sound waves, yes. But it does not 'sound-proof'. Neither does foam, mass loaded vinyl, etc. MLV is great for building limp bag membrane traps and for noise reduction on field equipment (see industrial uses for MLV).

Your concrete walls and ceiling are doing a very good job of sound-proofing. These building components usually work well up to about 55 dB for single partitions. If you need more isolation (sound-proofing), you will need to add resilient hangers and 'float' a gypsum board ceiling below the existing and build isolated walls (NOT TOUCHING) around the perimeter. It gets very expensive, very quickly.
-- Find out how much isolation you need. Did you read my paper of the same name?

Cheers,
John
 
Sir, i think i should be the one asking you to plz bear with me.
Hey, no problem. That's why we are here. At least you are making an effort to communicate..vs some people that come here.

i think you must have realized by now, that i am still very new to all of this and i nearly don't have enough knowledge to make "sound" decisions.

Yes we do realize. That's why we are suggesting things so you CAN make..ahem.."sound" decisions..pun not intended. :D

also i am realizing that it is a lot more expensive and difficult to soundproof and treat two room rather than one.

Heck, it's expensive to soundproof and treat ONE, let alone two. And btw, most people who come here are not knowledgeable in the area of "soundproofing", and usually have no idea how difficult AND expensive it is to make a room..ahem.."soundproof". Speaking of which...in REALITY..there is NO SUCH THING as "soundproof". Only levels of "transmission loss". THAT..is what you need to understand. Soundproof is a misnomer. Figure it this way. You "may" build an envelope that keeps speech from transmitting from one space to another. In that regard, you have "soundproofed" enough to keep that level of sound from transmitting. However, play a set of drums at 100db...guess what? Now, build a room to keep 100db drum sound from transmitting through the walls. Then..set up the Space Shuttle. Hahahahaha..see what I mean?

i have heard of one-room studios- but i am not sure how they work. honestly i think we could move the gear while mixing. or maybe it isn't as simple.

Well, this depends on a few things. The very first thing you need to decide..is whether or not down the road you want this to be a "pro" studio. In that regard..forget a "one room studio".
There is NO way to effectively monitor what the mics are picking up in the same room, as the direct sound is impinging on your ears. Even with headphones, you can't possibly make good sonic judgements as the direct sound will mask, alter, and effect what the headphones are telling you. That's the bad side of one room studios. However, that's not to say you can't make it work. This all depends on your intent.

Now, you COULD build a one room studio for now, with a future possibility of adding a second room, but you would still need to do things now that prepare the envelope for interfacing with a second room envelope in the future. ..ie..window framing, HVAC ducting prep, wiring jboxs..etc etc., so with minimal demo in the future, you could easily build another room, as long as you left space for it in the first place. But like John says.."The only issue would be tracking drums." ditto me. More on that later.

let me try to describe the environment as best as i can: there aren't any neighbours outside the front wall, or side walls either(there are on the left side: but not at the same height.) and the nearest neighbour behind the studio is atleast 20m away. the main concern are the people living upstairs.

Ok, John has addressed this the best one can at this point. The problem here is you or we don't know in real, tested terms, how much isolation you really need in order to define the proper ceiling assembly to build. It's like saying...well, the neighbor can't hear us talk, but what if I play drums? See? So, at this point, I'd submit, given you have a 10cm concrete ceiling already(4"+/-) the best approch is to define the ceiling assembly as a medium brute force TL. Meaning..two layers 5/8" drywall with a 6" airgap..plus or minus depending on which system you ultimately use. BTW, John already addressed the Acoustiblok thing. Just remember..plain old dumb drywall is your friend. However, again..your intent.

i just don't know if we have enough room to build a suspended ceiling. there's a company here called Armstrong: they have suspension systems for ceilings. i'll have to enquire about the costs and whether they would ship to my location.

Well, I'd suggest finding out EXACTLY to what extent is the Armstrong system available there. They have lots and lots of options. There may be alternate accessories for different hanging applications..then go from there. I understand how frustrating this can be though. But this is why I'm suggesting finding out WHAT IS AVAILABLE. If nothing else, I'm STILL working on an alternative that you can DIY. :) In fact, it may save you a ton of money too. Might not be easier, but then again, how good are your building skills? Personally, I got more time than money, and this is how you learn. DIY! However, I'm not you.

i know that only mass and isolation stops sound: but then the 12" insulation is 100% absorbant. does this mean that it simply does not reflect. or does it really absorb all the frequencies without transmitting to the concrete ceiling above?
Like John says..only MASS inhibits the transmission of sound vibrations..insulation absorbs, but is relative to frequency vs absorption coefficients. WITHIN walls/ceilings, it dampens the wall vibrations and absorbs, but the most important thing is it lowers the "critical" frequency, which will transmit like no wall is there. I don't profess to be an expert, but I think you get the idea.

Ok, here is the real deal as far as "my design" is concerned. In reality, you could simply close this space up, and use it. Or.. Put up some absorption panels and bass traps and be done with it. However, you end up with what ever transmission you have. PERIOD. My design is an effort to do what you said...down the road make it into a "pro" studio, with a small tracking space. In that regard, YOU could, if need be, simply put up a wall between the two spaces, window or not, and be done with it. AGAIN..you end up with what ever transmission FLANKING PATHS you have..ie..concrete structural transmission. Even into your upper neighbors space, especially drum impact transmission. My idea is to minimize all transmission paths by virtue of 2 rooms within the concrete envelope. Of course, you will need to address impact transmission through the floor as well. A whole nuther animal to deal with. But doable.

As to the ceiling, here are some options...take a look and then tell us as soon as you can what you think. Remember though, any choice is relative to other elements such as walls, and have their own idiosynchrisies, like time, skills, money, availability etc.

Ceiling Options..Control Room
Room as is, no room within room(RWR) walls
1. Repair/waterproof/prime/Paint. With or without insulation below(need supports and or framing for fabric.

2. Increase mass via direct drywall cladding.With or without insulation below(need supports and or framing for fabric.

3. Drywall on wood furring(with or without insulation between furring)With or without insulation below(need supports and or framing for fabric.

4. Drywall on Resilient Channel on wood furring(RC..note, see avaliblity RC1-RC2(With or without insulation between furring and or below(need supports and or framing for fabric.

5. Drywall on decoupled furring(metal hat channel and decouplers.(With or without insulation between furring and or below(need supports and or framing for fabric.

6. Suspended lightweight dropped ceiling grid with fiberglass inserts(with or without standard batt insulation above) (or, other drop-in materials)

7. Suspended Light Duty dropped drywall ceiling SYSTEM-one layer drywall.(With or without insulation between furring and or below(need supports and or framing for fabric.

8. Suspended Heavy Duty dropped ceiling SYSTEM-SEE ARMSTRONG
2 layers 5/8" drywall, fill insulation above, absorption below.

9. What ever you have in mind.

10. My DIY ceiling support with 2 layers drywall, inside out construction, insulation below with fabric

Note these could also be used in conjunction with a room within a room design too. But, weak link syndrome dictates a similar ceiling system TL rating selection.

Ok, I'm outta time here but John will be back . Oh, you still haven't told us what your intent is with HVAC? Oh, and you mentioned a bathroom too. GAK!


Oh, btw...my disclaimer is in FULL FORCE. ...ie...I never claimed to be an expert in any way here. If someone sees something I've said or drawn, that is in your opinion, wrong, say so and I'll be happy to address it.


I'll be back. But please keep us informed of any decisions. That way I can update anything that needs it. Like the ceiling.:p
 
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PS....I completely forgot. Due to the weight of some of those ceiling systems, you might want to check with your local building inspection people regarding hanging. Or, a structural engineer for that matter. That is why I have a disclaimer. In fact, now that I think about it...are you or do you have to obtain a building permit? I would think so in an urban area, with a concrete structure building in progress. But I don't know about India.
 
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