Sonarworks

cmaro14

New member
Hello, Im new here so not sure if you guys have mentioned this before. Im currently trying to treat my room (i still mix in my bedroom) and came across sonarworks which basically calibrates your monitors to your room. I was wondering if any of you guys have tried it and if its any good? maybe it can really help me with my current setup since I cant spend so much treating my room Thanx

sonarworks.com
 
I used their Reference 4 and it definitely helps if your room isn't all that great. I used it in a tiny room with very little treatment and it definitely worked. I won't say that my mixes sounded better to me at my desk, but it did translate better on different sources.
 
You calibrate monitors to remove/fix room nodes. The problems are always there.
You need to fix the room...not the monitors.
 
You calibrate monitors to remove/fix room nodes. The problems are always there.
You need to fix the room...not the monitors.

I agree that the room needs to be fixed first, for sure. However, the vast majority of home recording addicts aren't able to have the room treated correctly or have small/odd shaped spaces to work in that make it very difficult to sound good. That's where software like this comes into play.

If you can and are able to have the space treated, do it. If not, or you have a budget that does not allow it, then sonarworks or similar software can help whether the big boys like it or not :thumbs up:.
 
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I should probably add that IF you do decide to use software like this, make sure your measurements are 100% correct. If any of the measurements are off my even a small bit it can end up sounding worse. I've used the Reference microphone they provide and an EC8000 with calibration file. Both work very well but their mic does do it a bit better(plus, their mic is budget friendly). All i can add based on experience with them.
 
I agree that the room needs to be fixed first, for sure. However, the vast majority of home recording addicts aren't able to have the room treated correctly or have small/odd shaped spaces to work in that make it very difficult to sound good. That's where software like this comes into play.

If you can and are able to have the space treated, do it. If not, or you have a budget that does not allow it, then sonarworks or similar software can help whether the big boys like it or not :thumbs up:.

It's in your imagination that you're fixing the problem.

That argument that the vast majority of home users aren't able to treat their rooms...doesn't change the laws of physics and acoustics...and that software STILL can't fix room nodes by doing something to the monitors.

The problem with the vast majority of home users is that they easily buy into the notion that all their recording shortcomings can be fixed with software...and that's got nothing to do with the "big boys liking or not". You think if software could correct room issues, that the "big boys" would still be spending large sums of money to create proper recording and mixing spaces when all they need is some inexpensive software...? :D

Hey...believe whatever you need to feel good about your choices and decisions. ;)

And that's not saying that you can't get a good recording in a lousy space...if you really work at it or it just happens to work out for you. I'm just saying that no software can fix room issues via monitor adjustment...none. The room will still have the same issues, and it's only your perception that is being affected, subjectively.
 
I'm just saying that no software can fix room issues via monitor adjustment...none.

Good, cause no one else is saying it either. Thinking it could fix the room would be absolutely absurd and i obviously agree that that's why the pros spend large sums on treatment. It goes without saying.:facepalm:

What I am saying is that it helps("helps" being the word to focus on here) work around the issue if an individual's specific situation does not allow perfect room treatment immediately due to a load of factors such as budget(like OP stated). It cannot and will not be perfect, but (here comes that word again..) helps more than having nothing at all. It's an affordable, easy workaround until room treatment is done or completed if possible, without spending a lot of time and money. Only after treatment will the issues be fixed.

For good measure i will I will quote from my previous posts because you obviously missed it:
"I agree that the room needs to be fixed first, for sure."

"If you can and are able to have the space treated, do it."



Again, I agree wholeheartedly that the room should be treated and at no point am I arguing that fact. That will fix the issues but only if done properly. Slapping a bunch of foam on the wall like most people do does nothing to solve the problem and just costs $ and could add more issues. I am not saying that anyone should buy or use the product, just answering the question of whether or not it works. Yes it does, but take into consideration the rest of the conversation also.

If i break my arm i know the only way to fix it is by having a cast put on, but you can be damn sure ill take some Advil or something before i go to the Dr. Will it fix my arm and take away all the pain? Nope. But, it will help with the pain until i get to the Dr and have it fixed.

I only purchased to help with a tiny room i had to use for a short amount of time while my "home studio" was being rebuilt and treated in my house. It helped(not fixed it, but helped) whether anybody likes it or not. Now that its built and treated well, the software is not needed and the problems are fixed. Ta-daa..
 
You can say it helps...but I'm really not sure you explained how it helps other than you are convinced it does, because you're argument is that your budget doesn't allow anything more.

Again, it doesn't change/fix/modify/improve the room you are in...so what is it really doing that you think helps?
What IS being fixed/changed/modified? Most likely it's applying some processing just to mask the issues...which is really not a solution, IMO.

Like I said, if you believe it's doing something and you're happy with that...fine, I'm not going to convince you otherwise. :)
I'm just pointing out that it's the equivalent of taking a placebo, and feeling better...instead of the Advil. ;)


Sound on Sound review

"Sonarworks compensates for room effects by putting significant response anomalies in a monitor’s frequency response, and those anomalies will be imprinted on the sound that reaches the ears first. Despite the psychoacoustic integration of direct and early reflections, there is little doubt that the first arrival is vital. Stereo, for example, relies on the brain identifying the first arrival. Sonarworks also seems to me to be a one‑seat solution. It corrects the response at the listening position potentially at the expense of the response elsewhere."

So you're like fixing things at your mix position, but potentially skewing them elsewhere...and all that becomes part of your mix.
It's just another layer of processing that is attempting to correct something that really needs correction of a different manner.
I think you are much better off simply learning the anomalies of your room, and working them in mind...as opposed to relying on adding processing that tries to hide that...probably only for you, and only at your mix position, on your monitors.
 
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Again, it doesn't change/fix/modify/improve the room you are in...
Nobody stated that it fixes the room, in fact we both said it does not.

Most likely it's applying some processing just to mask the issues...which is really not a solution, IMO.
Compensating for offending frequencies. Again, not a solution as i stated. The solution is to treat the room correctly.

I'm just pointing out that it's the equivalent of taking a placebo, and feeling better...instead of the Advil.
The software is the Advil. The room treatment is the cast with healed bones.

I think you are much better off simply learning the anomalies of your room, and working them in mind...
.
Yes, that is EXACTLY what this does, only it does it FOR you. For instance, I know that in a previous house i lived in, i had a substantial bump around 550-650Hz region. On my master bus i would slap an eq on there cutting those frequencies and then mix into that. That would compensate for that horrible bump. Was it great? NO. But it helped. That's what this does. Only now, you don't have to spend time to measure and find the frequencies and then compensate with eq, amounts etc. It does it for you so in essence it's a lazy man's compensation eq. That's all. No miracle software, no oohh aaahhh experience. Just a bit of help in the right direction if you don't want to do it yourself.
Should we look down on eq'ing a vocalist because he has to fix his tone? should we not compensate with a compressor until he/she fixes their dynamics? No, that is stupid. If you think about it almost everything we do during the mixing stage in the studio is compensation in one way or another, even if just highlighting or polishing. EQ compensates for offending frequencies or lack of gain in the ones you want to highlight, compressor for dynamics, reverb compensates for space not there etc the list goes on.

Sure you can save the money and do it all yourself, or just live with the issues. I'm not telling anyone to buy it and really don't care if they do.


You can say it helps...but I'm really not sure you explained how it helps other than you are convinced it does
Read the above again. Offending frequency compensation, just as you would do without the software.

So you're like fixing things at your mix position, but potentially skewing them elsewhere...and all that becomes part of your mix.
Nope. It will be skewed if the offending frequencies are NOT compensated for during mixing.


I'll say it one last time using different words: This does NOT take the place of proper room treatment. But if you can't treat the room and you don't know how to measure correctly and compensate within the mix, then software like this could be an option for the individual depending on their environment, capabilities etc.

It seems to me as if we are generally debating on the same side, just missing the pivotal message. A lot of that going around these days.
The only difference is that i have tried it in the past, and it helped a bit. Will i use it again? Nope. No need to because my room is treated properly and the treated room gives me way better results.
 
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It seems to me as if we are generally debating on the same side, just missing the pivotal message.

I'm just not seeing what is being achieved using that product if it's a marginal "fix" that is specific to your monitors and your mix position...?
IOW...it may be that whatever it does, it makes the mix sound better to *you* because it's using processing to compensate for the rooms issues...but here's the thing, processing can't compensate for room nodes. IOW, if the room has a huge null at some low frequency...you can dump as much boost as you want at that frequency, and it will be like getting sucked into a black hole...nothing changes, because the null just keeps sucking it away.

My point is that forcing your monitors into some weird, skewed frequency response (and that's assuming the proper measurements were initially done with the reference microphone)...to try and compensate for certain room issues...doesn't work. To just add some EQ polish, that's a different thing.

Now...it may be that to the user, there is a pleasing improvement to the sound of their mix...but IMO, it's "fake"...and potentially, you can end up with a mistaken sense of "I fixed it". That's why I don't think it really helps

Back to your Advil analogy....if you are in pain, and I give you a sugar pill, and you "believe" that it helped... it's just a mental trick, but the inflammation is actually still there. When you take a real Advil, the inflammation actually goes down.
One can say....what does it matter as long as I think the pain went away in both situations...but there is a difference.

Anyway...I just hate some of these inexpensive, easy "solutions"...because people on budgets and without big motivation, tend to opt for them, and go on to believe that the pain is gone...but in fact, the inflammation is still there. ;)
 
Yes, we both do agree that it is not a fix. Done with that.

I'm just not seeing what is being achieved using that product if it's a marginal "fix" that is specific to your monitors and your mix position...?
IOW...it may be that whatever it does, it makes the mix sound better to *you* because it's using processing to compensate for the rooms issues...but here's the thing, processing can't compensate for room nodes. IOW, if the room has a huge null at some low frequency...you can dump as much boost as you want at that frequency, and it will be like getting sucked into a black hole...nothing changes, because the null just keeps sucking it away.

In exactly the same way you would compensate for offending frequencies without it. As you said before:
I think you are much better off simply learning the anomalies of your room, and working them in mind.

This will be accomplished during the mixing stage, primarily with eq. Sonarworks is just an eq on your masterbus and you mix into it and remove before it mixdown. That's all it is. Nothing special. It compensates for you so you don't have to.
For example maybe you hear a 1k bump, so you cut at 1k to compensate. After the fact you realize that the actual recording did not have a bump at 1k, but now you've cut it out so you have a big dip in that region. Sonarworks(or any EQ) on the master bus already compensationg for you so you don't end up cutting the frequency. Before mixdown you remove the Sonarworks and there is your track without the big dip. If you mixdown WITH Sonarworks engaged, it will sound horrible and have the effect you described regarding it soundoing good at your desk and bad everywhere else. Sonarworks does that it reverse, so to speak. That is why i said in my first post, it didn't sound better at my desk, but translated better on other sources.
Again, you do NOT do a mixdown with it engaged. That'll be bad :spank:

The Advil won't fix the broken arm, just makes the pain and inflammation bearable until it gets fixed.
 
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Sonarworks is just an eq on your masterbus. That's all it is. Nothing special. It just automatically compensates so you don't have to.

Mmm...maybe I'm reading it wrong...but I understand it to be an EQ on the monitors...which is not the same as EQ on your master bus.
When you EQ your tracks or your master bus, you're changing the mix. Sonarworks is attempting to change how you hear the mix, by trying to "fix" the room problem, at the monitors...but it's not doing anything to the mix.
So then, you make changes to your mix based on what you are hearing as it's being altered by Sonarworks at the monitors. So back to my point...some room issues can't be corrected with "EQ"...so you then get a false playback.
I mean...if you could package the Sonarworks processing so that no matter the playback system, no matter the room...it will make adjustments for all your listeners so that they hear what you heard...that would different (and quite an accomplishment!!!)...but it can't.

So we come full circle...that *ideally* (not saying absoluojtley necessary), the best path is to have both your room and your monitors at the most "neutral" possible setup...and then the translation to other systems for other users would be automatic, because both room and monitors would not be affecting the actual mix.

There are other products out there that attempt to do things "automatically" for you...there's the mastering stuff like LANDR, or the Mix Assistant in Izotope's Neutron software...and there are others. I've demoed some of the (tried both that I mentioned)...and found that while they can "do" things to the mix for you automatically via some algorithmic analysis and application process...it just never gave me what I wanted to hear.
I'm sure for some folks who are "all thumbs"...having some preset algorithm make *subjective* decisions (that doesn't even make sense to say)...is perfectly acceptable, and they simply sit there and only have to decide if they like it or not.
Still those are somewhat choices that can be made about subjective results...but with Sonarwarks...mmm...it's actually trying to fix physical problem.

I do think that all of that stuff has a certain level of learning value...IF the person using it wants to learn from it...but I wonder how many just accept the results as being better, because that's the easy thing to do, and let it go at that. In which case those things become crutches.

So you mentioned that you got past the Sonarworks and ended up with treating your room. Did you have to do a major installation to get the room right...or was it more about "spot" fixes with focused treatment...?
 
The thread is TL/DR, but I can see something like this being useful if you know the limitations.

I wouldn't say it tries to "fix" a problem, maybe "compensate" would be a better term. What your ears hear is a product of the room and the monitors. The monitors are (ideally) flat while the room has peaks and valleys in the freq response. Those get measured then the plug compensates for them and your ears hear a flatter response from your monitors and room. Basically, the monitors no longer have a flat response, their new EQ curve complements the room. The plug doesn't change the mix, you do, according to the corrected EQ curve you hear.

And we all understand that.

And we know, too, that that new EQ curve is good only for the position where the reference mic is. You can't move around the room and expect the response to stay the same, and I kinda doubt it would be able to compensate for ringing or reverb. Still need acoustic treatment to solve that problem.

But EQ is only half of the response, timing is the over half. Does sonarworks address timing and phase?

I see this approach being similar in theory to listening to reference material, except you do all the compensation, not a plug. You know that the reference songs were recorded and mixed in great rooms then mastered by pro's. So, you listen to those songs on your system and compare the freq response to your mix and try to get your mix to mimic them.

I'm personally happy with my horrible-sounding cube shaped studio. I don't see myself buying something like this.
 
Ahh okay i see where we are missing each other hahahaha and partly due to me not explaining it in the best way(english is not my first language, plus i had to rush my responses a bit). My bad. And yes you are correct in saying that it will not do the trick 100%.

This is how it works:
1. When you do the measurements, Sonarworks "listens to" and evaluates which frequencies are issues in different positions in your space. It then creates an eq curve/profile to compensate for the offending freq as if they are not there.
2. Slap the plugin on your master bus and engage. Now you hear the audio as if the offending freq in the room isn't there(well, that's what it is supposed to do, and does it fairly well considering all the factors).
3. Mix without worrying about compensating for offending freq, as if you are in a good sounding room(again, that's the target).
4. Remove plugin from master bus after mixing is done.
5. Mixdown/render mix.
6. Done

What i did like about it is the fact that you don't have to compensate for freq yourself. You just mix as usual. The mix simply translates better because you mixed and compensated for those offending freq without knowing you did. Therefore translates better.
I made the mistake on my first mix with it by not removing the plugin. Every bad freq in my room was multiplied in my mix. Sounded horrible everywhere i played it but good at my desk when the plugin is engaged. Then went back to the project, removed it and there she be!!! Not great, but better and even translation on multiple sources.

So you mentioned that you got past the Sonarworks and ended up with treating your room. Did you have to do a major installation to get the room right...or was it more about "spot" fixes with focused treatment...?

Yeah, i purchased a new home and built an extra room in it for my project studio. I measured the acoustics in my room with the guidance of a studio owner that has helped me over the years, built and bought some absorption and diffuser panels and treated the room according to the measurements we did. HUUUUUUUGEEEE difference. Worth it.
I have before(several years ago in a different house) just put up some random absorption panels in random places that made the room look cool, but did more harm than good so advise anyone against it. I vote for learning to do it right, or get a pro like i did.
The difference between good treatment and anything else, including sonarworks, are night and day for me. But like i said, the software helped at the time.
 
I wouldn't say it tries to "fix" a problem, maybe "compensate" would be a better term. What your ears hear is a product of the room and the monitors. The monitors are (ideally) flat while the room has peaks and valleys in the freq response. Those get measured then the plug compensates for them and your ears hear a flatter response from your monitors and room. Basically, the monitors no longer have a flat response, their new EQ curve complements the room. The plug doesn't change the mix, you do, according to the corrected EQ curve you hear.

Exactly!!

But EQ is only half of the response, timing is the over half. Does sonarworks address timing and phase?
Yes it does both. You have the option at any time to swith it on or off.


I see this approach being similar in theory to listening to reference material, except you do all the compensation, not a plug. You know that the reference songs were recorded and mixed in great rooms then mastered by pro's. So, you listen to those songs on your system and compare the freq response to your mix and try to get your mix to mimic them.
Pretty much yes. If you know the problems in your room and "know" how certain genres or songs sound within that room, then i feel a person is golden and don't "need" calibration software or major treatment.

I personally never liked mixing with reference tracks before, which is funny because now i hardly ever mix without them.


Like i said before, this is software for a person that doesn't have the know-how/budget/space, or is just lazy. I was lazy as all hell, used it, and lived to tell the tale.
 
I agree totally with Cosmic and what sound on sound says. Work on the room. To start you would be better off using a quality headphone and use the sonar works with them. Don't fight the monitor and room issues. without treatment you will lose the battle. As many Mastering engineers say!!!! Listen to your mix on several different sources. Car, home stereo system, iTunes and such. Try getting the ear to hear where your issues are.
 
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