REW Results - Serious Analyzing HELP Needed For Optimum Listening Position.

mrfye17

New member
Hi People,

After many months of researching, thread posting, reading, listening, building, measuring and analysing, I am now in the final stages of setting up my Home Studio. Primary usage will be MIXING and Recording Guitars, Bass and Vocals.

To re-cap, I have a 11.5'W x 18.5'L x 8'H room with 6" thick panels and 17" square soffit style Bass Traps all filled with Roxul Safe'n'Sound.

I have attached pictures of the Front Half and the Back Half of the room.

I used REW to take a whole bunch of measurements to establish a Speaker and Listening Position and need some SERIOUS HELP with analyzing my results in order to narrow down the Best positions.

I have 2 Krix speakers (HiFi but good) that are Front Ported and am not using any Subs.

There will be a Ceiling Cloud with four 6" thick Panels (24" x 48") with a 6" gap (I think) and will Install them and Secure the rest of the Panels after the Listening and Speaker Positioning is established.

Measurements Taken:

There are 4 listening positions -
62", 69", 74.5" and 83.75" (38%) from the Front Wall down the Middle of the room.

Using an Equalateral Triangle on each, I started from the Wall (W) and came into the room using increments of 3".
Just to be as detailed and Clear as possible, all the Measurements taken were.....

62" ........Wall, W+3", W+6", W+9", W+12", W+15", W+18" and W+21"
69" ........Wall, W+3", W+6", W+9", W+12", W+15", W+18" and W+21"
74.5"......Wall, W+3", W+6", W+9", W+12", W+15", W+18" and W+21"
83.75"....Wall, W+3", W+6", W+9", W+12", W+15", W+18" and W+21"

On the measurement notes, I also have the Distances from the Front Wall and Side Wall to the Front of the Speaker on each one, as well as the Distance between the Speakers (Center to Center).

Because the mdat files are too large to attach, here is the link to my Google Drive where they are situated:

Desktop.zip - Google Drive


I know it's a LOT of information but I really do need some help (being an untrained analyzer) to help narrow-down the field and maybe shed some light on this bugger!


Thank You so much for your attention and help,

Chris (mrfye17)

p.s. If you need any more info or have any questions, please yell out!
 

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If you can't access the link, to get and see the mdat files please let me know and Ill send a link thru a msg or email.

Thanks
 
Using an Equalateral Triangle on each, I started from the Wall (W) and came into the room using increments of 3".

What does that mean?
Are you moving your speakers further apart to maintain the equilateral triangle each time you move your listening position...or are you moving your entire setup,. speakers/mixer/etc and your listening position.

If you are not moving the speakers forward with the listening position...then you need to move them further apart as you move the listening position, in order to maintain the triangle.
Oh...and you say increments of 3"...but you're not doing 3" (62"+3=65", 69"+3=72"...etc.).

Your link doesn't work, but I don't really need to see the REW data...because TBH, moving things 3" isn't going to change the frequency responses in the room all that much. You would need to change the acoustic treatment substantially to change the readings in the room.
So I would just pick the spot that sounds best to you...and move on...unless you plan to change the acoustic treatment some more, but even then, REW isn't going to change much.

Simple approach...put as much treatment as you have room for or that you can afford to do...and move on. Smaller rooms need lots of treatment. The most info worth looking at in the REW files is if you have mostly LF issues or HF issues (probably LF issues)...so then you can focus on adding more bass traps or more broadband traps.

REW in small rooms doesn't offer a lot of data value, IMO...and people waste a lot of time trying to tweak the readings by making small adjustments...with little significance to the sound. You could glean more info by simply playing back some reference music, and then walk around and listen.
 
What Miro said ^^^. Ears, not eyes.

For the ceiling cloud panels, mount them over your listening area - you want to get those 'first reflections' damped. Not familiar with the speakers, but hifi speakers tend to be either mid-happy or mid-sad (think graphic equalizer sliders, frown or smile), so listening to reference material is what's needed. The record/mix some tunes, post them in the MP3 Clinic section here to get some other ears on them.
 
I replaced the link in my 1st post....it should be working now :)

Thanks for letting me know boys.


What does that mean?
Are you moving your speakers further apart to maintain the equilateral triangle each time you move your listening position...or are you moving your entire setup,. speakers/mixer/etc and your listening position.

If you are not moving the speakers forward with the listening position...then you need to move them further apart as you move the listening position, in order to maintain the triangle.
Oh...and you say increments of 3"...but you're not doing 3" (62"+3=65", 69"+3=72"...etc.).

Your link doesn't work, but I don't really need to see the REW data...because TBH, moving things 3" isn't going to change the frequency responses in the room all that much. You would need to change the acoustic treatment substantially to change the readings in the room.
So I would just pick the spot that sounds best to you...and move on...unless you plan to change the acoustic treatment some more, but even then, REW isn't going to change much.

Simple approach...put as much treatment as you have room for or that you can afford to do...and move on. Smaller rooms need lots of treatment. The most info worth looking at in the REW files is if you have mostly LF issues or HF issues (probably LF issues)...so then you can focus on adding more bass traps or more broadband traps.

REW in small rooms doesn't offer a lot of data value, IMO...and people waste a lot of time trying to tweak the readings by making small adjustments...with little significance to the sound. You could glean more info by simply playing back some reference music, and then walk around and listen.


Hey Miroslav,

The 62, 69, 74.5 and 83.75 are the measurements of how far my chair will be from the Front Wall and Yes the Speakers will be furthest apart at the wall. From there, the 3" increments will move towards the listening position (chair) always maintaining the Triangle and therefore the speakers will get closer together. The Desk, Screens etc. will stay where they are.

What I would like to establish, is the best listening and speaker position (the 1 or 2 or 3) with the least amount of problems so when the cloud goes up and some corrective eq'ing applied then I will be in the best situation for Mixing and Producing (at least the best for this room).

Also, you may be able to identify (because of your expertise) where some of my problems may be located or coming from.

-Chris
 
What I would like to establish, is the best listening and speaker position...

Well...for starters, and this is the rule I follow, your speakers should be about 5'-6' apart...the specific number is something 67.5".
The reason is...at that distance you get the best stereo imaging. So with that set, your mix position would then use that distance to create the triangle.

After that, find the sweet spot in the room...using that 38%...and stick your mix position there and then adjust your speakers and other gear if you need to move everything closer/further from the back wall.
Once you have that...listen to some music. You can then move your chair back a bit for forward to see if you like things more at the point of the triangle or a bit closer to the speaker from inside the point...but that's pretty much your mix position setup.

Doing the REW and moving things 3" forward or back, will not make any difference, because the room is still the same, and that is what the REW is measuring.
Your supposed to set up your monitors and mix position first...and then use REW at that mix position to see how the room reacts and if you need to address anything that is way off (usually the LF in most smaller rooms).
Your trying to use REW to decide where the mix positions should be...and that's not the purpose of REW....and again, at 3" increments, it's not going to change much anyway.

If you set up your mix position as mentioned above...any small tweaks to it are best done using your ears and some reference tracks...and not REW, which will only lead you down a rabbit hole with little value.

This is the setup I use...which is close to the one gecko posted for the angles and general size and layout...but both can work, the choices between their differences will depend on what your ears are telling you.

MonitorPosition2.jpg


If you have the room length-wise, which you should with 18'...that 38% has some leeway...so you can try moving the whole setup against the front wall or maybe a couple of feet away. With front ported speakers, you can go against the wall and it may sound better than a foot or so away, because you can get a LF node at the mix position when you're only a few inches to a foot or so away. If you want to be off the front wall, a good 2-3' would be better...so then going against the wall may be easier if you don't have the room to be that far away.
All that, you can decide with your ears. Play some reference tracks...roll that chair a little forward, a little back...see if you can find the sweet spot.
 
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I'll second the suggestion to place the speakers 5'-6' apart and place the listening position at an appropriate distance from that. If you're too close to the speakers it skews imaging.
 
Question....

When I'm ready to put up the Ceiling Cloud, should the Panels be...

1) Over my Listening Position (my head)
2) Over the Speakers, OR,
3) Centered in the Middle using the Mirror Trick?
 
Question....

When I'm ready to put up the Ceiling Cloud, should the Panels be...

1) Over my Listening Position (my head)
2) Over the Speakers, OR,
3) Centered in the Middle using the Mirror Trick?

Mirror trick, just like your left/right/rear absorbers. The ceiling is another first reflection point, just like the others.
 
I disagree with the drawing posted and the point distance behind the head. It should NOT be more than 6" or 15 cm!

It is very important to maintain proper imaging and focus. If your speakers are too far apart, your mixes will suffer from "mono syndrome". ;) (I just made that up) But it's where you mix in stereo and then everyone that listens hears a mono recording... not good.

Cheers,
John
 
To answer the original question: Sit yourself at 0.375 times the length of the room. Do NOT move. Use REW to adjust the speaker distance along the 30-degree lines.
 
I disagree with the drawing posted and the point distance behind the head. It should NOT be more than 6" or 15 cm!

It is very important to maintain proper imaging and focus. If your speakers are too far apart, your mixes will suffer from "mono syndrome". ;) (I just made that up) But it's where you mix in stereo and then everyone that listens hears a mono recording... not good.

Totally agree John.
If speakers are too far apart the sound falls apart, dips in the frequencies, depth, punch and holes in the stereo image and can sound a little " phasey "


To answer the original question: Sit yourself at 0.375 times the length of the room. Do NOT move. Use REW to adjust the speaker distance along the 30-degree lines.

I tried that as well (the 83.75" listening position) but had a few major dips between 53hz and 70hz.
Did you get a chance to have a look at my REW results and possibly give me your preference / suggestions?

Cheers,
-Chris
 
Totally agree John.
If speakers are too far apart the sound falls apart, dips in the frequencies, depth, punch and holes in the stereo image and can sound a little " phasey "




I tried that as well (the 83.75" listening position) but had a few major dips between 53hz and 70hz.
Did you get a chance to have a look at my REW results and possibly give me your preference / suggestions?

Cheers,
-Chris

Chris,
First, you need to really treat your room or just deal with the dips. You are doing the typical LEDE/RFZ design (which is shit criteria and over 40 years old). You have the bare minimum treatment. THAT is the problem.
Then, once you have proper treatment (get a good designer to recommend), test and move your speakers for the best position.

NOTE: You will always have SBIR when using free-standing speakers - no matter how well treated the room is. ;)
Cheers,
John
 
If your speakers are too far apart...

What does that mean in actual numbers...?

I find that most people use them too close, and there is no real stereo imaging, it all becomes mono.

The drawing I used above in my previous post, comes directly from Carl Tatz, who knows a thing or two about room design...and who I've spoken to when I first read his points about speaker placement and the need for wider spacing than most people use, otherwise the image suffers. He then confirmed the specific distance needing to be 67.5"...which is also in this article.

http://carltatzdesign.com/downloads/ami-article.pdf

Recording Studio Design in Nashville by Carl Tatz Design - Acoustic Design, Analysis and Implementation

I use to have my speakers wider than most people do...but when I readjusted using the Carl Tatz dimensions...it made a significant improvement, and I've stayed with it since.

Most people in home studios have only a computer monitor in front of them...and they naturally put the speaker monitors on either side, since the 67.5" triangle would put their seated position way back from their computer screen. So they end up choosing speaker placement based on how close they need to sit in front of their computer screen in order to see things, rather than the optimal speaker spread for proper stereo imaging.
 
A lot of people can do the wider spacing but then they sit too close, often because their mix position is up against a wall due to limited space. That tends to deemphasize things panned center (except below 300Hz), so they tend to mix centered things loud. This happens because of more pronounced head shading and reduced cross bleed.

A similar effect happens when the triangle is the right proportions but too small. The head (and the distance between the ears) becomes proportionately larger relative to speaker distance. The decrease in volume from one speaker to each ear becomes greater due to the distance proportions and you get less cross bleed. This affects all frequencies about the same.

Bottom line, you need the distance between your speakers and distance from them.
 
A lot of people can do the wider spacing but then they sit too close...

That's been one of the side benefits of my continued use of a full size mixing console. By the time everything is set up with the gear, it almost automatically puts that correct size triangle and my listening position in the optimal spot.
It's like even before I discovered the specific numbers on spacing the speakers from Carl Tatz...I was at about the same size triangle with only being short by several inches...all due to the console forcing me to sit back a certain distance, and therefor the speakers had to be apart that same distance.

When I asked Carl Tatz if those few inches would really make a noticeable difference (because I was too lazy to move the monitors)...he said absolutely, and was very adamant about the 67.5". So I went ahead and reset them, and it was obvious that he was right.
 
What does that mean in actual numbers...?

I find that most people use them too close, and there is no real stereo imaging, it all becomes mono.

The drawing I used above in my previous post, comes directly from Carl Tatz, who knows a thing or two about room design...and who I've spoken to when I first read his points about speaker placement and the need for wider spacing than most people use, otherwise the image suffers. He then confirmed the specific distance needing to be 67.5"...which is also in this article.

http://carltatzdesign.com/downloads/ami-article.pdf

Recording Studio Design in Nashville by Carl Tatz Design - Acoustic Design, Analysis and Implementation

I use to have my speakers wider than most people do...but when I readjusted using the Carl Tatz dimensions...it made a significant improvement, and I've stayed with it since.

Most people in home studios have only a computer monitor in front of them...and they naturally put the speaker monitors on either side, since the 67.5" triangle would put their seated position way back from their computer screen. So they end up choosing speaker placement based on how close they need to sit in front of their computer screen in order to see things, rather than the optimal speaker spread for proper stereo imaging.

Carl is okay, but he's a bit like John Storyk... a hard-line LEDE/RFZ guy. Not that he doesn't know what he's talking about, but he doesn't in a few areas.
I think some of his stuff is GREAT... It's like everyone in this field; We all have our issues. (except for me) LMAO!! ( you KNOW I'm kidding, right? )

But to say that 'so-and-so' does it this way so it must be correct is actually a logical fallacy; Argument from Authority.
Now, we (studio designers and consultants) are experts, not authorities. We NEED to be questioned. It forces us to grow and get better at what we do.

But, yeah, I completely disagree with Carl's drawing. It can only lead to problems if you don't understand what he is trying to explain there.

I'll explain:
The ANGLE of the speakers is irrelevant. The position is what is critical. Carl was including angle and position. (this is confusing)

1. The speakers must be on lines that are 30 degrees left and right of the direction that the listener faces.
2. The focal direction from the mid or tweeter of the speakers MUST intersect with the EAR! The focal point will be no more than 6" or 15 cm behind the head. (important)
3. Measure the distance from the convergence point (6" behind the head) to the mid or tweeter.
4. Position Left and Right speaker so that their separation distance equals #3.
5. Then the speakers SHOULD be angled outward about 5 degrees from their focal direction. This makes the speakers converge at a point much further behind the head! But this does in no way interfere with the imaging or focus like Carl's drawing WILL.

The horizontal coverage of all professional speakers is just as accurate at 5 degrees off-center as it is ON center. But this allows better room coverage and stereo imaging all over the room (as long as the room is properly treated - again NOT LEDE :facepalm:)

I hope this answers your questions. More details in my upcoming book.
Cheers,
John
 
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