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Thread: REW Results - Serious Analyzing HELP Needed For Optimum Listening Position.

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfye17 View Post
    Question....

    When I'm ready to put up the Ceiling Cloud, should the Panels be...

    1) Over my Listening Position (my head)
    2) Over the Speakers, OR,
    3) Centered in the Middle using the Mirror Trick?
    Mirror trick, just like your left/right/rear absorbers. The ceiling is another first reflection point, just like the others.

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    Thanks Tadpui

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    I disagree with the drawing posted and the point distance behind the head. It should NOT be more than 6" or 15 cm!

    It is very important to maintain proper imaging and focus. If your speakers are too far apart, your mixes will suffer from "mono syndrome". (I just made that up) But it's where you mix in stereo and then everyone that listens hears a mono recording... not good.

    Cheers,
    John
    John H. Brandt Acoustic Designs - ABOUT US - OUR WORK - RESOURCES "Twenty thousand dollars worth of Snap-On tools does not make you a Professional Diesel Mechanic"

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    To answer the original question: Sit yourself at 0.375 times the length of the room. Do NOT move. Use REW to adjust the speaker distance along the 30-degree lines.
    John H. Brandt Acoustic Designs - ABOUT US - OUR WORK - RESOURCES "Twenty thousand dollars worth of Snap-On tools does not make you a Professional Diesel Mechanic"

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhbrandt View Post
    I disagree with the drawing posted and the point distance behind the head. It should NOT be more than 6" or 15 cm!

    It is very important to maintain proper imaging and focus. If your speakers are too far apart, your mixes will suffer from "mono syndrome". (I just made that up) But it's where you mix in stereo and then everyone that listens hears a mono recording... not good.
    Totally agree John.
    If speakers are too far apart the sound falls apart, dips in the frequencies, depth, punch and holes in the stereo image and can sound a little " phasey "


    To answer the original question: Sit yourself at 0.375 times the length of the room. Do NOT move. Use REW to adjust the speaker distance along the 30-degree lines.
    I tried that as well (the 83.75" listening position) but had a few major dips between 53hz and 70hz.
    Did you get a chance to have a look at my REW results and possibly give me your preference / suggestions?

    Cheers,
    -Chris

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfye17 View Post
    Totally agree John.
    If speakers are too far apart the sound falls apart, dips in the frequencies, depth, punch and holes in the stereo image and can sound a little " phasey "




    I tried that as well (the 83.75" listening position) but had a few major dips between 53hz and 70hz.
    Did you get a chance to have a look at my REW results and possibly give me your preference / suggestions?

    Cheers,
    -Chris
    Chris,
    First, you need to really treat your room or just deal with the dips. You are doing the typical LEDE/RFZ design (which is shit criteria and over 40 years old). You have the bare minimum treatment. THAT is the problem.
    Then, once you have proper treatment (get a good designer to recommend), test and move your speakers for the best position.

    NOTE: You will always have SBIR when using free-standing speakers - no matter how well treated the room is.
    Cheers,
    John
    John H. Brandt Acoustic Designs - ABOUT US - OUR WORK - RESOURCES "Twenty thousand dollars worth of Snap-On tools does not make you a Professional Diesel Mechanic"

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhbrandt View Post
    If your speakers are too far apart...
    What does that mean in actual numbers...?

    I find that most people use them too close, and there is no real stereo imaging, it all becomes mono.

    The drawing I used above in my previous post, comes directly from Carl Tatz, who knows a thing or two about room design...and who I've spoken to when I first read his points about speaker placement and the need for wider spacing than most people use, otherwise the image suffers. He then confirmed the specific distance needing to be 67.5"...which is also in this article.

    http://carltatzdesign.com/downloads/ami-article.pdf

    Recording Studio Design in Nashville by Carl Tatz Design - Acoustic Design, Analysis and Implementation

    I use to have my speakers wider than most people do...but when I readjusted using the Carl Tatz dimensions...it made a significant improvement, and I've stayed with it since.

    Most people in home studios have only a computer monitor in front of them...and they naturally put the speaker monitors on either side, since the 67.5" triangle would put their seated position way back from their computer screen. So they end up choosing speaker placement based on how close they need to sit in front of their computer screen in order to see things, rather than the optimal speaker spread for proper stereo imaging.

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    A lot of people can do the wider spacing but then they sit too close, often because their mix position is up against a wall due to limited space. That tends to deemphasize things panned center (except below 300Hz), so they tend to mix centered things loud. This happens because of more pronounced head shading and reduced cross bleed.

    A similar effect happens when the triangle is the right proportions but too small. The head (and the distance between the ears) becomes proportionately larger relative to speaker distance. The decrease in volume from one speaker to each ear becomes greater due to the distance proportions and you get less cross bleed. This affects all frequencies about the same.

    Bottom line, you need the distance between your speakers and distance from them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bouldersoundguy View Post
    A lot of people can do the wider spacing but then they sit too close...
    That's been one of the side benefits of my continued use of a full size mixing console. By the time everything is set up with the gear, it almost automatically puts that correct size triangle and my listening position in the optimal spot.
    It's like even before I discovered the specific numbers on spacing the speakers from Carl Tatz...I was at about the same size triangle with only being short by several inches...all due to the console forcing me to sit back a certain distance, and therefor the speakers had to be apart that same distance.

    When I asked Carl Tatz if those few inches would really make a noticeable difference (because I was too lazy to move the monitors)...he said absolutely, and was very adamant about the 67.5". So I went ahead and reset them, and it was obvious that he was right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miroslav View Post
    What does that mean in actual numbers...?

    I find that most people use them too close, and there is no real stereo imaging, it all becomes mono.

    The drawing I used above in my previous post, comes directly from Carl Tatz, who knows a thing or two about room design...and who I've spoken to when I first read his points about speaker placement and the need for wider spacing than most people use, otherwise the image suffers. He then confirmed the specific distance needing to be 67.5"...which is also in this article.

    http://carltatzdesign.com/downloads/ami-article.pdf

    Recording Studio Design in Nashville by Carl Tatz Design - Acoustic Design, Analysis and Implementation

    I use to have my speakers wider than most people do...but when I readjusted using the Carl Tatz dimensions...it made a significant improvement, and I've stayed with it since.

    Most people in home studios have only a computer monitor in front of them...and they naturally put the speaker monitors on either side, since the 67.5" triangle would put their seated position way back from their computer screen. So they end up choosing speaker placement based on how close they need to sit in front of their computer screen in order to see things, rather than the optimal speaker spread for proper stereo imaging.
    Carl is okay, but he's a bit like John Storyk... a hard-line LEDE/RFZ guy. Not that he doesn't know what he's talking about, but he doesn't in a few areas.
    I think some of his stuff is GREAT... It's like everyone in this field; We all have our issues. (except for me) LMAO!! ( you KNOW I'm kidding, right? )

    But to say that 'so-and-so' does it this way so it must be correct is actually a logical fallacy; Argument from Authority.
    Now, we (studio designers and consultants) are experts, not authorities. We NEED to be questioned. It forces us to grow and get better at what we do.

    But, yeah, I completely disagree with Carl's drawing. It can only lead to problems if you don't understand what he is trying to explain there.

    I'll explain:
    The ANGLE of the speakers is irrelevant. The position is what is critical. Carl was including angle and position. (this is confusing)

    1. The speakers must be on lines that are 30 degrees left and right of the direction that the listener faces.
    2. The focal direction from the mid or tweeter of the speakers MUST intersect with the EAR! The focal point will be no more than 6" or 15 cm behind the head. (important)
    3. Measure the distance from the convergence point (6" behind the head) to the mid or tweeter.
    4. Position Left and Right speaker so that their separation distance equals #3.
    5. Then the speakers SHOULD be angled outward about 5 degrees from their focal direction. This makes the speakers converge at a point much further behind the head! But this does in no way interfere with the imaging or focus like Carl's drawing WILL.

    The horizontal coverage of all professional speakers is just as accurate at 5 degrees off-center as it is ON center. But this allows better room coverage and stereo imaging all over the room (as long as the room is properly treated - again NOT LEDE )

    I hope this answers your questions. More details in my upcoming book.
    Cheers,
    John
    John H. Brandt Acoustic Designs - ABOUT US - OUR WORK - RESOURCES "Twenty thousand dollars worth of Snap-On tools does not make you a Professional Diesel Mechanic"

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