New studio space...considering my options.

I see.I was assuming the "V" after the fact on top of the drywall(finish carpentry).
I like wood.You like wood.Some wood.
RCA Victor studio Montreal.Classic polys.

G
View attachment 104668
View attachment 104669

It may very well end up the "V" after the fact, on top of the drywall. I don't want to give the contractor too many twists to deal with...and since I'm most likely going to be doing all the final finish work, after the drywall...it will allow me to take my time, maybe try out some different things.
When the crew starts "banging nails"...they like to work in a straight line and get it down fast. :)

That space at RCA in Montreal...that's very close to what I'm going for, though I don't think I will be able to afford that much specialty wood treatment.
I'm looking at some of the stuff they have at Acoustic Geometry...the curve diffusers.

Curve Diffusor | Acoustic Geometry
 
Let me tell you...this studio build is turning into a real rollercoaster ride. :facepalm:

OK...so today I meet with both the contractor and the architect...we have a nice talk for about an hour, review everything, makes some minor adjustments, and suddenly I feel like this is going to really pick up speed, especially when the architect says he'll have the plans ready in no more than two weeks.
I'm all happy...and then about an hour later the contractor calls.

He says he has good and bad news.
The good news, we can get the initial permit process going with out the architect's plans, just the basic survey and how far we plan to go toward the property line, so that they can go through the formality of denying the permit...which then sets up stage two, and we go before the town board for the variance request, by which time the architect will have the plans, etc.
The bad news...the contractor tells me he ran into the building inspector, and he asked where things are at these days going before the board...and he was told that they've become more strict, and are mostly granting variance requests for hardship cases.

Well, I can certainly be a hardass...but I'm not sure what kind of hardship story I can put together to sway the town board...???
I mean...do I tell them I gotta have the studio, because I've got hits all written and need a place to record them? :rolleyes: Would they buy that as a hardship? :D

Worst case...I shell out $3k-$4k for the architect's work, and they deny the variance...and I kiss that money good buy. Which would piss me off, but not being able to do the build would be a big letdown. :(

Now I do have a "Plan B"...and it's not bad, it would be an addition right from my currant studio space. I would practically not need to move all my audio gear...but then it would be a different layout. My current studio space would become a dedicated control room, and I would probably rotate my mix position 90 degrees, which would be OK, because then I would be firing down the length of the whole room.
Then the new addition would become the live room...roughly about 16' by 23', maybe even push it out to 18' by 23'...and it would sunk down lower than the control room by about 2'...which would let me have a 10' walls and with a soft peak on the roof, the center would get up to about 12'.
It's not a bad option, it just whacks out some other things....like I don't know how to make the new bathroom thing work, since the original plan made it all fit just right.
The positive side...it might cost me much less, especially if I have to abandon the addition of the new bathroom...which wasn't a must have, but it just made sense to add a full bathroom since the original plan made it possible.

I told the contractor to give me until Monday, that I wanted to let this other option settle on my brain so O could really see it in my minds eye...and I would let him know. There are moments where I feel like just forgetting the whole thing, and simply making my existing spaces work. Heck, I could even appropriate the adjoining bedroom to my current space (something I thought of a few times)...call it Plan C...and just make that part of my studio. I wouldn't have the big open space with the high ceiling...but that would cost me almost nothing to do, and I could use all the planned building budget on other remodeling, not to mention...more audio gear. :)
I still would love to do the original build plan...that would be the finest studio space.
 
Though i can't say i am surprised having seen this kind of thing too often, at this juncture i'm just going to keep my fingers crossed for the best possible outcome for you. Keep the faith brother!
 
Is it an area or use variance?

G

There are 40' setbacks to all property lines for permanent, livable structures with any new construction in this area. With a shed or maybe garage, it's down to 10'.
The existing space that I am looking to expand is already past that...I think I'm about 25' from the property line at one corner...it was probably built before they went to the 40' setbacks, or the previous owners got a permit to build it that close...I don't know what happened 30 years go.

I'm looking to push it out another 10' closer to the property line on that one side. My neighbors couldn't care less, we get along just fine...and I would be "encroaching" on a totally wooded area...there is nothing there and no realistic possibility that my neighbor (who's house is up closer to the road than mine) would ever be expanding his house down there into the woods, or using it for anything. The other surrounding neighbors are also all separated from me by lots of woods and they are well beyond the 40' setback distance from me.
The real potential issue is that the town looks at it not from those perspectives...but rather that if they allow me, then they have a harder time denying someone else. Of course, that would assume that suddenly the majority of property owners in the township are all going to start submitting building permits that exceed setback limits, and there would be a run on variance requests, etc...or some such nonsense. :D

It's a small town board...they have some power, and this is what people with power do, they try and make everyone else conform to their way of thinking.
You see that every day, everywhere in the world.
Of course, these are just elected/assigned officials...they don't own the town...so it's possible that the next round of officials may think different, if the general politics swing. There is an election for the town officials this year... :) ...so I think the current board members may be a bit more receptive to requests so as not to upset their chances on election day. ;)

At any rate, after feeling a bit of frustration and some confusion last night which way to go with this...I got some sleep, and today I promptly called my contractor and told him not to hold of on anything, and the plans we have agreed on ARE the ones I want to pursue.
I don't wish to now start backing off on the possibility that the town board will deny my variance request. I have a pretty good argument planned...and I can be pretty persuasive and hold my ground in most debates...so I will let them be the ones to make the stronger argument not to grant the variance, rather than start backing off now, before I even have my chance to present anything to them.
I think even now, before I go in front of the town board...it's at least a 50/50 shot, and with some well presented points, my odds should be much better than that.
It's like so many other things...I just have to work the problem when it arises, and usually there's a solution.
 
Talk to the architect about your secondary plan, including how to add the bathroom, and get his input. I would be trusting to what the building inspector said. They're strict here - you can build additions onto a house that is closer to the property lines than is permitted for new construction, but the new construction has to be set back per the new rules (so you can build n one/2 sides of the house, but not on the side(s) closest to the line.) I ran into this when i looked at reconstructing my garage that I lost one winter.
 
Might be able to show precedent.
If the council did it once they can do it again.
Especially if it was a board members property.

G
 
There's a house a few roads away, but same township and in a purely residential area, where they have a big house, but then next to the house, the guy built a big wood shop initially...and then a couple of years later, did a big addition to the wood shop, so now the wood shop is bigger than the house...and the whole thing sits (from what I can tell) only about 10-20 feet from his neighbor's property...since there is only a very narrow tree line between then, and you can see where the neighbor cuts his grass right up to it.

There another house nearby, where the guy does excavation as his main thing...and he's got dump tucks, excavators, trailers and all kinds of "stuff" in his driveway and front yard...which isn't allowed by default in a residential zone. I doubt the wood shop guy build all that without permits or variances...and this other guy has been there with his excavation business for a bunch of years, so I don't know if he's just doing it without permit/variances, because it's pretty obvious and not just some weekend thing.

I'm sure if I drive up and down a few other roads and really take note, I will see more like that...so if they are going to give me a hard time about 10', I will certainly argue my point, and if they deny it, I will appeal at the county level. I am focused on making this happen...this is an improvement to my property, they will certainly tap me for more taxes, and the build will not impact anyone on any negative level. No one will even notice considering how my house is set back from the street.
 
Reading what little I have, I wonder if anywhere during the process, you ever used the words "studio" or "business"?

I've found that the Mafia-model of government we have is keen to tune in on revenue streams. If they think you're setting up a money-making entity, then they want their piece of the action every step of the way. Both legal and extra-legal. There's no such thing as "hobby [concern]" to these people. You can call it a "hobby studio", but all they'll hear is "big time moneymaking studio"... and they'll want their cut.

"Your own enjoyment"?
"Yeah, right. I enjoy money, too."

If you want to expand "for when family comes to visit", that's something different. They have families, too, and understand the idea. Maybe standard fire and building codes will be all you'll endure. But if you breathe out words that have $$ attached to them, you just set yourself up for a long, hard, intimate session. It doesn't matter what the laws and regs say, you're at their mercy and they know it.

Even if you mention it to your builder or contractor! They score special Stasi points for turning you in. They may complain about the bureaucrats, but when push comes to shove, they'll always opt for being on their good side and if that means selling you out, you're sold. They're not shy about making money tomorrow if some poor guy like you can't pony up the loot today. They're in this for the long haul.

But let's say you get it built under the "family" ruse. Later on, after you learn that family doesn't wanna visit near as much as you originally thought, you can then approach the borough/township/county folk for a bizness license (if you do that kind of thing - i don't) for your studio, because hey, you got all that extra room. That'll open up lots of inspections and hassles, but at least you'll have your building done.

And you can always "go out of business" if they get too pushy.
 
Reading what little I have, I wonder if anywhere during the process, you ever used the words "studio" or "business"?

It's going to be called a home "recreation & entertainment media room"....or what use to be officially referred to as a "den" back in simpler times. :)
I've seen some expensive homes with small theatres inside, so this is not some oddity anymore, to have a "media" room...and my spare storage areas are going to be identified as media equipment spaces...not as "closets" which always implies more living/bedroom space.

The other thing...if you missed it...this is an existing space, so I can already use it for whatever, and all I'm looking to do is expand it by 10' on two sides.
It's a lot different than if I was building something 100% new, from the ground up.

Also...I have no plans to open this as any official business. If that should somewhat change down the road, it's not going to be much of an issue, considering that you can have a home business without too much trouble.
Yeah, if I was to say that I was building a commercial recording studio...that would certainly raise some questions, and might require all kinds of additional documentation, etc.

This existing space was a guest room....basically like a large hotel style bedroom and sitting area. The fact that I'm turning into a entertainment/media room actually works in my favor, since it lowers the bedroom count (they use that for computing how many people can possibly live in the house)...and it gives it a more locked-in usage. That said, everyone is allowed to have a piano or to play music in their spare bedrooms or dens...so no real problem there.

This is small rural township....so they have some rules and regs, but it's not anything like you might see in some real controlled suburban areas or like a HOA, which I would ever live in, no matter how appealing it might be. Those places get so friggin' control-happy, that you could get flack for painting your house some unacceptable colors if the community board or HOA didn't like it.
I have a pretty good argument to make, which I will do politely and with plenty of details...making it harder for them to just say "No", like if I went in with not much to say or provide support for the justification.

I do have my Plan B option, which will give me a net total space that is as big as the one I'm looking to do...I will just have to move it to the other side of the house, right up against my existing studio space (which is a positive thing overall)...but it pushes out the house lines in a way that is not as appealing as what I want to do with my Plan A.
Like I said...worst case I'm about the cost of the architect and some permit fees...because I would have to come back with the new plan, and again engage the architect...but I am going to show my contractor what my Plan B would be, and see if I can work a "just in case" deal with him and his architect, so that I get some break if we have to do drawings a second time. I mean, his goal is to build me something...rather than lose the job altogether, and he's pretty easy to work with.
 
i don't really understand the point of an iso booth. if you're using the room for recording ,you can track all the basic tracks and then do overdubs in the same room.
 
i don't really understand the point of an iso booth. if you're using the room for recording ,you can track all the basic tracks and then do overdubs in the same room.

Uh-oh... you mighta cracked open a can of worms.

I was once of your opinion... until i built an iso booth.

Then I wondered how i ever got along without one.
 
i don't really understand the point of an iso booth. if you're using the room for recording ,you can track all the basic tracks and then do overdubs in the same room.

You're assuming that all recording will always only be done by one player...one track at a time. If you have a singer and other players...you may need to do some separation or even complete isolation.
Also...the iso-booth isn't just for isolation. There are times when you may want a dead sounding vibe to a track, so you can then treat the track a certain way later on, without any of the room sound.
There's also times where you may want to stick an amp in there set on "11"...which might be too overwhelming in a big, open space to give you the sound you desire.

I certainly wouldn't want an entire song to be tracked in a dead iso-booth...and I also think vocals will sound better in a more open and somewhat live space rather than always doing them in a booth...but if you can have a decent iso-booth, it can come in handy for a lot of things. Also, the booth has to be a decent size, even if you're going for a more dead sound. I don't think something the size od an old-school telephone booth is really the best way to go, or that it sounds the same as a bigger iso-booth.
There are iso-rooms...fairly large but meant for isolation, and not necessarily always dead. They could just have a very short decay, but not 100% dead, which is something mostly used for voice narration, though not always needing to be 100% dead.
 
I think Miroslav hits the spot with "dead" iso-booth? So often noobish folk come on the forum saying they want to build a "vocal booth", mainly to tame room modes or/and noises off. Invariably such proposes booths are tiny, often just a walk in cupboard they hope to utilize.

I think the booth idea started in busy news studios? A place for the anchor isolated from the babble and phones? Also, stuffed to deadness it gave the (radio) listener a disembodied voice devoid of "place" and thus their own room added to that and the announcer seemed part of the room with them.

To expect anyone to sing with any passion in a phone box is daft!

Dave.
 
I think Miroslav hits the spot with "dead" iso-booth? So often noobish folk come on the forum saying they want to build a "vocal booth", mainly to tame room modes or/and noises off. Invariably such proposes booths are tiny, often just a walk in cupboard they hope to utilize.

I think the booth idea started in busy news studios? A place for the anchor isolated from the babble and phones? Also, stuffed to deadness it gave the (radio) listener a disembodied voice devoid of "place" and thus their own room added to that and the announcer seemed part of the room with them.

To expect anyone to sing with any passion in a phone box is daft!

Dave.

About 16 minutes in...

YouTube

A luxury item for the home studio.If one can fit you're living large.

G
 
A luxury item for the home studio. If one can fit you're living large.

I wish I could go that big with an iso-booth/room (I assume that's what you're referring to).


Right now, I'm planning a pair of 6'W x 9'L x 8'H spaces...one for the iso-booth and the other for storage.
I have the option of letting the height/ceilings go all the way open to the same cathedral height, and just cut in half vertically...but IMO, that doesn't really add anything...so I am going to cap the, off a the 8' height...or maybe even 10'....?

I could certainly use the entire 6' x 18' space as a very long iso-room...and forget the storage, but I really need a place for mics, stands, etc...otherwise, it's all going to be scattered around the big room, or I would have to store it in some other part of the house, which is possible, but a PITA having to go get it when needed.

I even thought about moving that "inside" wall out further...and having like two rooms...a bigger space and a iso-room/live room space...but TBH, that would only be of real value if I was going to be doing a lot of outside recording work, which I am not planning to. This space is primarily for my use, my projects, and whatever outside recording occurs, it will be in-line with that, so I will make use of the single big space in an acceptable manner, and having the one 6x9 iso-booth is really for "just in case". I also plan to insulate/isolate the storage space as much as the iso-booth...so if I have to ever stick an amp in there while someone is using the iso-booth...etc...it will work.

I can look at a lot of commercial studios and let my imagination go wild, and it would be WAY cool to go for a major studio build...but it's not what I really need now. If it was 20 years ago...I would pursue that, and be more interested in having lots of people coming/going and all that. Right now, I have a ton of music that I need to start/work on/and finish...all in different stages...so I just have to stay focused on that and not go off in some "wouldn't it be nice" fantasy direction.
It's my space to work on my stuff. Anything else that comes in will be something I am interested in working on, and no "for hire" scenarios. I don't need that headache, and not to mention, going in some "business" direction would require a lot more planning and issues to deal with, not to mention insurance, and all that.

Here's a scan of my rough drawing and layout, that gives some idea of what I'm looking to do. The dotted line is the existing structure.

StudioBuild01.pdf
 

There's a point in the video that isn't mentioned specifically, but comes across quite obviously, and I think many home studio builders should consider when they're dividing up a modest space into a small control room & live space...and then planning to also mix in that control room.

You can see in the video that most of the control rooms are pretty tight, even smallish, with the gear behind the mix positions right there, up your butt.
The point is...there is a difference between a "control room" and a "mixing room" space. Oh sure, many a Rock album was mixed in the same or similar control room environment, but obviously, done by pros who knew the room and knew the gear.
So for the home studio crowd, when you create a small 10'x10' control room just so you can have the separation from the live room (or the perception of a pro studio ;) )...consider that mixing in that little box will be a major PITA.

Anyway...my feeling has always been that if I can't have two 20'x30' (or there about) spaces that I can use for that control room/live room setup...the single open space is going to be preferred. The trick then of course is to get a good blend of a single space tracking room & mixing room...and that's kind of where my thoughts are for my new studio build. Considering how best to balance the treatment and feel of the one big room for both tasks.
I'm thinking it's going to somewhat live...with a more dead/absorptive/diffusive back end, so that during mixing the sound has a good distance to go, and then doesn't just come back at the mix position with first/direct reflections.
In the video...(and considering that the sound is being recorded by a camera mic)...the overall sound quality of Studio 2 is kinda what I think I want to go for.

The "control room" consideration is simply dealt with by the use of headphones during tracking...and a bit more rewind/playback style of monitoring, with more test takes at the outset...etc....so that's not a real issue, IMO, and it's the way I've been working for a long time now.
 
Now I get it.Lost in translation on my part.
One big audio rumpus room.
Some of my posts may have made no sense then.

G

Like this but on a smaller scale?
Church Studios
d32043b07c90015b0b438456211b49d3.jpg
 
Last edited:
Now I get it.Lost in translation on my part.
One big audio rumpus room.
Some of my posts may have made no sense then.

G

Like this but on a smaller scale?
Church Studios
View attachment 104686

Oh yes...absolutely!

Believe me, during my real estate window shopping excursions, I kept an eye out for an old church that could be gotten for cheap. I mean, to find something like that space for a decent price...I would even be happy to sell my house and move to some more remote, smaller town, because that's often where you will see older church buildings available.

But yeah...that's what I'm going for. No where near that size and with that ceiling height, but that's the idea, though in my case, I will have the console facing the 180 degrees opposite, so that I'm firing down into the room. It's hard to tell in the picture how much space is behind the console, so it may be even much bigger than what the picture shows.
 
Back
Top