New studio space...considering my options.

miroslav

Cosmic Cowboy
I recently mentioned in the Prime "goals" thread that I was possibly going to be doing a studio expansion in the near future.
Today I met with a contractor, and we kicked around some ideas. This will involve an addition, and also some overall house remodeling...but the addition and the existing space that it's being added on to, at one end of the house, is what I'm thinking about for the new studio space.
I was initially considering using that for living space, and just keeping my studio where it is, and then expanding into the rooms that would be vacated once I moved into the new living spaces...but I'm pretty decided that my preferred option is to move the studio into that new space. That would be the real "WOW".

The basics are simple...it's currently a 14'x24' space (it's actually an addition that the previous owner did, that connects to the rest of the house with a foyer in-between)...and I'm looking to add a another 10' to the shorter side...so the whole thing would be a 24'x 24' structure, joined to the rest of the house with the foyer in-between. I would also be adding a full bathroom at one end of that foyer, since the foyer would also be expanded. (It all works nice...we already agreed it was a good spot for the bathroom). I would need to have a bathroom for the studio...but going with a full bathroom instead of a half-bath will be the smarter choice.

The real options that I'm trying to decide on is how (or if) to divide that 24'x24' space. I can't (well, I don't want to for a few reasons) go out more than the 10'...but I also know that 24'x24' is a prefect square. So...at this point, I'm thinking of leaving it as two rooms...14'x24 and the new 10'x24' space. I would use the bigger space as my main room where the console, monitors and rack gear would go, among other stuff...and then use the 10'x24' as the live room space, with a connecting door, and a small glass window between them.
Also, both spaces will have vaulted ceilings going up 12'-14' feet...depending on how we decide to do it.

That said...the idea of having one, big open space with the high ceiling really appeals to me...I just need to consider the "square" thing.
The ceiling being vaulted will help things a lot...and I can possibly have the contractor change the angles of new walls internally by a few inches and.or just work in a bit more extensive acoustic treatment.
Also...if I went with the 24'x24' open space, I would most likely want to add a couple of larger iso-booths at one end, like a couple of 5'x 6' booths at one end (though they would only have 8' ceilings, maybe 10') ...which should change the "square" aspect of the bigger open space significantly, I would think...???

I have some time to kick this around...we're talking about starting the main addition portion of broader remodeling project by June...so I will look at the acoustics stuff and make a decision.
Of course...going with a 10' x24' and 14'x 24' pair of rooms isn't really a bad option either. I would maybe do one iso booth at the end of the 10'x24' room...or still do two 5'x6' side-by-side booths.

My other consideration is that I'm still not planning to do a full-tilt commercial studio thing. I want to do more outside recording work, but it will be mostly for my recording projects, and the "outside" work would be more for the people I'm already doing projects with.
I would like to bring in a baby grand piano which is one reason I would like a bigger open space...though I think it would be OK in the 10' x 24' space considering that there will be the high ceiling.
Finally, I want to also use the space for some band type rehearsing when needed, and for that, one big space would probably be more comfortable.

Anyway...this is like the first baby step, just the initial discussion with the contractor...though I am pretty committed to seeing this happen, as I told him. So right now I'm kicking around the ideas, and looking for any suggestions that might help gel them into a final plan. :)
One thing is for sure...my current space is jammed up. I have outgrown it, and I'm using every square inch of space, and in need of more. I've got too much gear kinda "stacked" and crammed...so I need to expand.
 
One update...

So I was doing some web research about the room size options...and as it turns out, my 24'Lx24'Wx14'H single space may actually work out very well...if I include the two 6'x5' iso-booth...because it turns out that a room of 19'x24'x14' is a real good set of dimensions. The 6'x5' iso-booths at one end would effectively shrink one of the dimensions from 24' to 19'...:)...the only thing to consider is what to do with the ceiling height of the booths. Like I said before...I think minimum would be 8' ceiling for the iso-booths...but I think more like 10' ceiling height would be much better, and then the remaining space above the booths could be turned into a giant trap.
I'm thinking something like open framing above the booths...and then just stuff the shit out of that space with your typical pink insulation or something not so itchy, and then tack some kind of cloth to the face of the framing. So there would be the booths with a massive trap running the full width and height above them.

I'm also thinking that with the vaulted ceiling...I could add a similar frame, say a foot below the actual top of the ceiling...and then stuff that vaulted space also with trapping material...running the length of the room.
I think those two options would do a lot to take care of room acoustic issues...plus there would be the more basic type of traps spread around the walls and corners.
I want to room to have a nice warm but live sound to it.

If I go with the two room option...my 14'x24'x14' room would be fine...it's a pretty good set of numbers...but the 10'x24'x14' is not as good, and it introduces more nodes, which is to be expected since it's a smaller space. Of course, there are still the two booths, and the option to stuff some of the vaulted ceiling space, same as I mentioned above...it would just be done separately in each of the rooms.

Lot of food for thought...but this wil be nice no matter which way I go, and certainly a great improvement to my current studio.
 
If I had a potential 24x24 foot space I would kick,scream,bite and pull some fur before I shrank it Mir! Even 24' is not "big", I mean, hardly the RAH is it?

I am sure with room dividers (can hold gear) and GOBOHs (can be power and audio diss' boards) you can easily beat the squareness.

Dave.
 
There is heat insulation and there is acoustic insulation. They are different and the acoustic insulation works with sound. The other insulation has a lot less effect on sound.

It would most likely be cheaper to treat the whole room than start buying sound booths which are reported to be of different effectiveness.
 
If I had a potential 24x24 foot space I would kick,scream,bite and pull some fur before I shrank it Mir! Even 24' is not "big", I mean, hardly the RAH is it?

I am sure with room dividers (can hold gear) and GOBOHs (can be power and audio diss' boards) you can easily beat the squareness.

Dave.

Well you're preaching to the choir....since I've always been a big fan of single open spaces for recording purposes...which is really what I prefer to do, but there is some reality that needs to be considered, and a perfectly square room is not something to just ignore...because yes, it's really "not THAT big" at 24'x24'...though I think the high ceiling will help a lot.
Still it would be better to alter one of the dimensions somewhat, and the idea of some iso-booths at one end accomplishes that. Gobos will not impact nodes in a room, which are primarily dependent on the physical dimensions of the total space.
I would still have gobos to use in the room, but if I want a cranked guitar amp sound for an electric, and at the same time an acoustic guitar playing another part in the studio...it won't work as well to isolate the two with just gobos. It would be better to stick the guitar amp in an iso-booth and crank the shit out if there. :)

There is heat insulation and there is acoustic insulation. They are different and the acoustic insulation works with sound. The other insulation has a lot less effect on sound.

It would most likely be cheaper to treat the whole room than start buying sound booths which are reported to be of different effectiveness.

I hope you're not talking about some of the foam acoustic insulation...?
Most of your broadband traps and bass traps use the same type of insulation internally that are used for heat insulating purposes...it's just a matter of using the more rigid kind, or building frames and using the loose kind. When sound is dampened and trapped...it's all about heat transfer to the insulation.
Also...I thought I was pretty clear that the whole room would be treated (same as my current studio). I mean...I've been through this before...this isn't my first studio space. :)

I also never said anything about "buying" those ready-made sound booths. I'm talking about building them into the space to accomplish both isolation needs which would be more effective than just gobos, and the booths would also indirectly change the physical dimension of the space so as not to have a perfect square room.

TBH...the only thing I was kinda stuck on was the square room thing...but I was able to quickly sort out that concern by simply changing one of the dimensions, and the idea of adding a couple of 6' wide 5' deep iso booths at one end would solve the square room issue...and maybe I would also add a mic/storage space on that same side, using up the whole wall at one end....so I would effectively have one big open space that would be 24'L x 19'W x 14'H.
Everything else about this I've already considered...so it's mostly some minor layout decisions.

[EDIT]

Oh, I also forgot to mention that the "foyer" space that connects the rest of the house to this addition, is also going to be available as a more live, reflective room, which is 14'L x 12'W x 12"H...and it has a slate floor with hardwood walls and ceiling. I'm sure I will be able to make use of it...and with carpet tossed on the floor and some of my larger "mobile" bass traps that I made a couple of summers ago added to the room...the reflectivity can be adjusted as needed....but right now it has a nice slap-echo sound...not real glassy, thanks to all the wood, and it's a single kind of slap and not the annoying flutter-echo you can get with some typical sheetrock rooms. It will be fun to see what kind of sounds can be recorded in there too. Maybe even try a drum kit in there....hang a couple of mics off the ceiling. :D
 
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WAS going to leap to your defence Mr M and say you are NOT one of the noobs we get every week wanting to build a booth for $10 that will keep out the trains! But you have defended yourself, admirably.

Dave.
 
I recently mentioned in the Prime "goals" thread that I was possibly going to be doing a studio expansion in the near future.
Today I met with a contractor, and we kicked around some ideas. This will involve an addition, and also some overall house remodeling...but the addition and the existing space that it's being added on to, at one end of the house, is what I'm thinking about for the new studio space.
I was initially considering using that for living space, and just keeping my studio where it is, and then expanding into the rooms that would be vacated once I moved into the new living spaces...but I'm pretty decided that my preferred option is to move the studio into that new space. That would be the real "WOW".

The basics are simple...it's currently a 14'x24' space (it's actually an addition that the previous owner did, that connects to the rest of the house with a foyer in-between)...and I'm looking to add a another 10' to the shorter side...so the whole thing would be a 24'x 24' structure, joined to the rest of the house with the foyer in-between. I would also be adding a full bathroom at one end of that foyer, since the foyer would also be expanded. (It all works nice...we already agreed it was a good spot for the bathroom). I would need to have a bathroom for the studio...but going with a full bathroom instead of a half-bath will be the smarter choice.

The real options that I'm trying to decide on is how (or if) to divide that 24'x24' space. I can't (well, I don't want to for a few reasons) go out more than the 10'...but I also know that 24'x24' is a prefect square. So...at this point, I'm thinking of leaving it as two rooms...14'x24 and the new 10'x24' space. I would use the bigger space as my main room where the console, monitors and rack gear would go, among other stuff...and then use the 10'x24' as the live room space, with a connecting door, and a small glass window between them.
Also, both spaces will have vaulted ceilings going up 12'-14' feet...depending on how we decide to do it.

That said...the idea of having one, big open space with the high ceiling really appeals to me...I just need to consider the "square" thing.
The ceiling being vaulted will help things a lot...and I can possibly have the contractor change the angles of new walls internally by a few inches and.or just work in a bit more extensive acoustic treatment.
Also...if I went with the 24'x24' open space, I would most likely want to add a couple of larger iso-booths at one end, like a couple of 5'x 6' booths at one end (though they would only have 8' ceilings, maybe 10') ...which should change the "square" aspect of the bigger open space significantly, I would think...???

I have some time to kick this around...we're talking about starting the main addition portion of broader remodeling project by June...so I will look at the acoustics stuff and make a decision.
Of course...going with a 10' x24' and 14'x 24' pair of rooms isn't really a bad option either. I would maybe do one iso booth at the end of the 10'x24' room...or still do two 5'x6' side-by-side booths.

My other consideration is that I'm still not planning to do a full-tilt commercial studio thing. I want to do more outside recording work, but it will be mostly for my recording projects, and the "outside" work would be more for the people I'm already doing projects with.
I would like to bring in a baby grand piano which is one reason I would like a bigger open space...though I think it would be OK in the 10' x 24' space considering that there will be the high ceiling.
Finally, I want to also use the space for some band type rehearsing when needed, and for that, one big space would probably be more comfortable.

Anyway...this is like the first baby step, just the initial discussion with the contractor...though I am pretty committed to seeing this happen, as I told him. So right now I'm kicking around the ideas, and looking for any suggestions that might help gel them into a final plan. :)
One thing is for sure...my current space is jammed up. I have outgrown it, and I'm using every square inch of space, and in need of more. I've got too much gear kinda "stacked" and crammed...so I need to expand.

how much is all this going to cost? can you afford it?? will it pay for itself?? will it really do what you want or is it GAS to the max?
 
You could put a gash monitor and mic in the foyer and run it as a reverb room. I remember a photo of one (in Abbey rd cellar iirc) and it had ceramic drain pipes stood around to break up the reflections. Tell people they are "Object'art" !!

Ooo! Jusfort. have you thought about CCTV for communication? Really cheap and easy these days.

Dave.
 
how much is all this going to cost?
Don't know yet, waiting on the contractor to give me some preliminary numbers, but I'm sure I can cover whatever they end up being.

can you afford it??
Yup. I wouldn't even bother if I couldn't pay for it outright. I mean, I wouldn't do this with a loan (unless it was 0% interest :p ;))

will it pay for itself??
Ahh...that's not the focal point, nor do I care. It's really about me wanting a bigger studio space. If I can make some bucks, cool...I'll just spend it on more gear. :D

will it really do what you want or is it GAS to the max?
Oh trust me, I've already had plenty of GAS to the max, which is kinda why I want/need the bigger studio space. This is a long-time goal/dream/whatever...and while I've had studio spaces for the last 30 years or more...this one would certainly hit a personal high mark, and would most likely be the last one. I mean...the lottery can always change that, but I think this will be my final studio move...'cuz it's a bitch moving all that gear and rewiring everything.

It will probably take me a couple of months or more just to get all the gear torn down first, and then setup and wired up in the new studio, since I will have to redo most of my patchbay/rack snakes (current ones will be too short) but I already have some 48-channel Mogami cabling that I acquired several years ago, and saved for just this kind of situation. :)

The new space will also allow me to work more comfortably and more freely both alone and for any outside recording. I'm not building a commercial studio for the public...but I want a studio where I can also do some recording with the public when so desired.
 
I hope you're not talking about some of the foam acoustic insulation...?
Most of your broadband traps and bass traps use the same type of insulation internally that are used for heat insulating purposes...it's just a matter of using the more rigid kind, or building frames and using the loose kind. When sound is dampened and trapped...it's all about heat transfer to the insulation.
Also...I thought I was pretty clear that the whole room would be treated (same as my current studio). I mean...I've been through this before...this isn't my first studio space. :)

I read back over my post and I never mentioned foam once.

I was talking about Rockwool/fiberglass insulation.

For example Rockwool RW3 acoustic insulation is 60kg per M3. It is very short fiber. A type of crumbly insulation. You would not use this as far as I know for thermal insulation. There are less dense types of acoustic insulation. But being as the denser they are the more expensive they are. I should imagine they are more effective when denser? Perhaps you know better? I know thermal insulation of this type tends to be a long strand stringy type of fiberglass.

As regards what some people shove in their state of the art sound traps is up to them. But you will find that they thicker and denser they are (to a point), the better they are at reducing and absorbing sound....So I believe.
 
I read back over my post and I never mentioned foam once.

I was talking about Rockwool/fiberglass insulation.

For example Rockwool RW3 acoustic insulation is 60kg per M3. It is very short fiber. A type of crumbly insulation. You would not use this as far as I know for thermal insulation. There are less dense types of acoustic insulation. But being as the denser they are the more expensive they are. I should imagine they are more effective when denser? Perhaps you know better? I know thermal insulation of this type tends to be a long strand stringy type of fiberglass.

As regards what some people shove in their state of the art sound traps is up to them. But you will find that they thicker and denser they are (to a point), the better they are at reducing and absorbing sound....So I believe.
I have about 6" of Rockwool that was blown into my attic and some walls for thermal insulation. The RW-3 from what I know of it is a rigid panel type which can be used for either thermal or acoustic insulation.
How to Compare Rock Wool and Fiberglass Insulation | Home Guides | SF Gate

Rockwool - RW3 Acoustic Insulation Slab (1.2m x 600mm x 100mm - 2.88m2)
 
I have about 6" of Rockwool that was blown into my attic and some walls for thermal insulation. The RW-3 from what I know of it is a rigid panel type which can be used for either thermal or acoustic insulation.
How to Compare Rock Wool and Fiberglass Insulation | Home Guides | SF Gate

Rockwool - RW3 Acoustic Insulation Slab (1.2m x 600mm x 100mm - 2.88m2)

They do about 3 types of solid acoustic batt insulation panels of which RW3 is the most dense at 60kg per M3 and the most expensive.

My point for sound you need the thickist most dense possible. For heat/thermal I think anything over 10"-12" of normal fluffy stuff is overkill and not effective. Then of course cost comes in to play as to what you can and is affordable to use. With sound you just need as good as you can get which is usually the most dense and unfortunately the most expensive.
 
you clearly have more money and energy/time than I have.

Not knowing much about you (unless you're a former HR member, now with a new handle ;) )...to agree or disagree with you on your situation...
...but at this point I can cover this project financially and enough free time to see it through, but not enough time to put it off for 10-20 years down the road.
Basically...it's now or never.

AFA energy...not as much as I use to have, but certainly more than I will have down the road! :D
Moving the studio would be require a lot of effort, for sure, but as long as I can just push on it once I get going, it won't be a problem, just a lot of work, and I think most of it will be fun...seeing the new studio being populated with gear...but it's still going to take some serious effort.
Moving things like amps and guitars and stuff...that's a few days of work. The real effort, like I mentioned earlier, will be the racked gear, the console and rewiring the patchbays for a good amount of the gear.

I kinda went through much of this a couple of years back when I swapped out my console...so I had to rewire most of the bays and then I also added some new rack gear, and that caused more rewiring. The nice thing with the bulk of the console/bay cabling, is that it's already pretty long. I acquired some really nice, long snakes with the console. My racked gear will probably need all new snakes, since I plan to also change the racked gear layout.
Right now I have side racks on each end of the console...plus a couple really tall racks off to the side. What I want to do with the studio move would be to build (or buy) new racks that would all go behind my seated mix position...like you see in a lot of studios, so I can roll back the chair to the gear in the racks but still be seated in the center mix position for the most part. With the side racks, it's sometimes as PITA when I'm trying to make fine adjustments, and I gotta keep rolling back-n-forth from the center mix position to the racks.

There's a lot of options I will consider, but I'm already formulating the layout in my mind's eye...and at some point I will draw it all out on paper, to scale, so I can check against my building measurements, and how everything will fit.

All that said...the other option that I briefly mentioned at the start...the possibility of keeping my studio where it is, and then doing the addition but making it my living space, which would then free up a couple of rooms that are next to my current studio space...is still on the table if I want to avoid the big studio move, and all that. I think that idea is mostly being driven by my somewhat lower energy level than what I had some years back... :D ...but I really want the studio in the new, bigger space, and I'm sure that will win out unless the contractor comes back with some significant build issues, etc....but I doubt it.
I still need to tell him that now I'm leaning toward a single, open space as opposed to splitting into two rooms...but I don't think that changes much for him. He's calculating the foundation, and the outer wall dimensions, plus the need to run some plumbing since I'm also adding a full bath as part of this build (not in the studio space, but off that foyer that connects the house to the what would be the new studio space).
I'm guessing he would frame out the addition, attach the two roof sides to make one...and then remove that inside dividing wall, and complete the vaulted ceiling, tying everything together.
I'll wait to see what he has to say....
 
My point for sound you need the thickist most dense possible.

Right...like I said, I already know all that. A year ago I built some bass traps that are 7" thick, using 3 sheets of 703 rigid fiberglass in each.
My point to you was that you didn't really mention anything specific before, other than to say heat insulation is not the same as acoustic insulation...but that's not necessarily true.
Rigid fiberglass is used substantially for broadband traps and bass traps, and so is Rockwool, among other things...that's usually what people "shove in their state of the art traps" ....yet that stuff is also used for heat insulation. You can even use the "soft" rolled pink insulation for acoustics, you just have to pack a whole lot more of it into the same space to get the same effect as the rigid sheets.

In fact, most of that stuff was originally made for heat insulation...but eventually found to be also quite effective for acoustic treatment use. :)
 
Right...like I said, I already know all that. A year ago I built some bass traps that are 7" thick, using 3 sheets of 703 rigid fiberglass in each.
My point to you was that you didn't really mention anything specific before, other than to say heat insulation is not the same as acoustic insulation...but that's not necessarily true.
Rigid fiberglass is used substantially for broadband traps and bass traps, and so is Rockwool, among other things...that's usually what people "shove in their state of the art traps" ....yet that stuff is also used for heat insulation. You can even use the "soft" rolled pink insulation for acoustics, you just have to pack a whole lot more of it into the same space to get the same effect as the rigid sheets.

In fact, most of that stuff was originally made for heat insulation...but eventually found to be also quite effective for acoustic treatment use. :)

You can actually use a whole lot of things for acoustic treatments from cotton, wool to even the dreaded foam. There is a video on youtube referring to old towels. Why we still use fiberglass over more natural forms like sheeps wool is beyond me.

Regards the bass traps. I would still use the most dense material available. Ramming loose thermal 'loft' insulation into a set space is not the same as using proper acoustic insulation (RW3). It does not work like that.

Thermal insulation is different to acoustic insulation. It is manufactured differently besides being denser per weight/cubic meter. It is true you can use both for both so you could really end up arguing over something or nothing. I believe as I read somewhere that the fibers in acoustic fiberglass are laid down differently than thermal insulation.

To make my booth I have used 18 bales of RW3. If I could have used standard rolls of fiberglass I would certainly have done so and saved a fortune in the process. I was at same time insulating the whole building. So it would have been very easy and far cheaper to just use the one kind of insulation for all purposes. But after researching it I found out you can use one for both applications and the other one really for only one application because it is nowhere as effective. Hence my empty pockets.
 
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To make my booth I have used 18 bales of RW3. If I could have used standard rolls of fiberglass I would certainly have done so and saved a fortune in the process. I was at same time insulating the whole building. So it would have been very easy and far cheaper to just use the one kind of insulation for all purposes. But after researching it I found out you can use one for both applications and the other one really for only one application because it is nowhere as effective. Hence my empty pockets.

Rolled fiberglass is not what I would ever bother using for acoustic treatment or traps, because you would need a lot of it, and then stuff/compress it.
Like I said...I used Owens Corning 703 and 703 FRK which is no better or worse than Rockwool at equal thickness for acoustic use. The thing about the 703 I liked better is that when you handle it, it doesn't chunk off as easily as Rockwool...and at the time I was building my traps, I was able to find a really good deal on the 703 and 703 FRK. It was easier to get than the Rockwool or Roxul.

Also...not that fiberglass is 100% safe-n-healthy...but Rockwool has additional oils and binding agents, and when initially unpacking for installation, can be quite full of dust from the manufacturing process, that you don't want to inhale.
That's why I built my fiberglass traps outside, and sealed them within the frames before they ever came inside.

So bottom line, and again my point...neither of those products are specifically/solely meant for "acoustic treatment". They are both primarily for heat insulating used during building construction.
 
Regards the bass traps. I would still use the most dense material available.

Actually, not true, you don't want the most dense fibreboard available. You want to target 3lb/ft3 which is what OC703 is. OC705 is 6lb/ft3 and that is too dense. Sound can't penetrate into the fibers as easily and reflects back into the room.

Rockwool RW3 is 60kg/m3 which is 3.7lb/ft3, so the two products are pretty similar in regard to acoustic absorbtion.

:thumbs up:

Very cool what you're doing Miro. I'm excited for you and glad you have the resources to get what you want. Hope you get pics up at some point.
 
Very cool what you're doing Miro. I'm excited for you and glad you have the resources to get what you want. Hope you get pics up at some point.

Thanks.
For sure...when actual construction/moving begins...I will most certainly document the process with pictures. I was kind hoping to get going on it a bit sooner, but this one contractor can't go until June, but he's easy to work with, and isn't just a contractor "crew" that signs on for a very specific job that they will bang out quick and leave...so with this guy I think I will be able to take a bit more time and make adjustments if needed, with some flexibility.

I'm ultimately looking to have things done at least by the end of the summer...before the leaves start to fall...so I think the June start will be OK. He said the basic addition portion of the project will be 6-8 weeks, and then the other stuff I need for the general house remodeling will come after that.
 
All power to your's and your builder's elbow Miroslav. If I were just 5 years yonger and had two good eyes I would offer to come over and do all that "boring soldering" for ham&eggs and a bed!

Dave.
 
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