Monitor Recommendation for Small Space

[Nola]

Hey guys.

I finally bought a house, but it's a small one (where I live is super expensive) with only a 11x10 spare room for recording.
Can you recommend the best set of small monitors? Something very high quality in terms of the audio frequency range and sound quality, but also somewhat compact given my space.

Budget would be max of 1k.
Thanks!

 

[jimmys69]

I would suggest not KRK G2 stuff. Been down that hole. Not accurate.

I do have a pair of Event TR8's that are quite accurate. No comparison to the Adam A7x that I rely on now.

I did read something about a new product line of the Adam that might be worth looking in to.

T7V

It has the same tweeter that my A7X has, but the low end driver is not the same. But only $250 each as opposed to $750.

I would suggest spending some time listening to some or trying them in your space if you can. Monitors are not good in every space.

Please do not get NS10's no matter who says they are good. Just sayin....

 

[Massive Master]

Bringing up the "two rules" -- (1) You will only ever hear as accurately and consistently as your monitors allow you to hear and (2) your monitors will only ever be as accurate and consistent as the space they're in allows.

I can tell you with some certainty that the space you're in is an epic acoustical nightmare.

I had to work out of a 11x10 space for several months. Hardest months of my life. Even around the .38 spot, there were *40dB+* swings within *one cubic foot* of space. A dozen (2'x4'x4") broadband traps *started* to make things *a little* better. And that's not counting the "diaphragmic" ceiling that was already in place (long story short, the entire ceiling was a low end trap).

That all out of the way -- I actually churned out some fairly decent work in that space. But it took days and days of tweaking just to settle on monitor placement -- in my case, they had to be high and angled down - ended up using CRT mounts. That was absolutely huge in dealing with the lower midrange issues. But stand up and you're in a wash of mud. And if it means anything, the typical placement of trapping -- all four corners floor-to-ceiling and all four high-side corners centered on the mix position -- made the most impact.

Anyway, the point -- Definitely, get some decent speakers. But be ready to do a lot of tail-chasing until the room is ready for those speakers.

 

[CoolCat]

I dont know about the NS10...I just did a lot of reading and there are those in the business who say they, by design, work very well in accomplishing a good transferable mix, with or without toilet paper over the tweeter.

the Yamamha HS/NS10M white cone thing, are actives and the new CLANS10 stuff could be very good in at least concept.

the question that seems to be repeated on the NS10 debate is "are they obsolete or some tool of the trade forever"
like a SM57 works on a guitar amp, tool of the trade. My study leans to the latter and many truly feel they are a "great tool" for mixing....even though they started out as only a hifi playback test without much thought....Clearmountain didnt spend much time picking them out, he was just tossing some average joe speakers for a playback test...it could have been any speaker of the time. Hes said since, in more recent times, he uses PC speakers as playback tests too...
others have said the Optimus 7 has a similar ability to do the job well, in comparison to other average home hifi stuff.

I find the evolution of these nearfields interesting, even the Auratone, its purpose was to prevent the engineers from going to the car of an old radio system and hear the mix through some average joe's car speaker of "that time era".

and its "that time era" is what makes me skeptical of Auratones and NS10's because "that time era" is long gone. These two infamous speakers are not representative of the average persons playback system anymore. So they dont align to theory they became used.

however it seems many still love them and use them on many huge billboard hits and etc..etc.. as some lo-fi check to the studios main system.

so in theory, the pros and goal of that is to have the best set you can afford, while having some lo-fi average-joe's set to hear how it sounds on a average persons playback system of "this era". (my conclusion ymmv)

which is the most common play back average joe system of "this time era"?

a) mono car radio speakers in the front dashboard of a 1950's car
b) a stereo hi-fi home speaker set like the NS10..1970-1980
c) a car stereo with subwoofers and bluetooth and three way speakers in doors and tweeter in door
d) a earbud set
e) Beats headphones
f) plastic pc speakers
g) laptop speakers <1/2inch
h) home surround sound speakers in a home theater

 

[Nola]

Bringing up the "two rules" -- (1) You will only ever hear as accurately and consistently as your monitors allow you to hear and (2) your monitors will only ever be as accurate and consistent as the space they're in allows.

I can tell you with some certainty that the space you're in is an epic acoustical nightmare.

I had to work out of a 11x10 space for several months. Hardest months of my life. Even around the .38 spot, there were *40dB+* swings within *one cubic foot* of space. A dozen (2'x4'x4") broadband traps *started* to make things *a little* better. And that's not counting the "diaphragmic" ceiling that was already in place (long story short, the entire ceiling was a low end trap).

That all out of the way -- I actually churned out some fairly decent work in that space. But it took days and days of tweaking just to settle on monitor placement -- in my case, they had to be high and angled down - ended up using CRT mounts. That was absolutely huge in dealing with the lower midrange issues. But stand up and you're in a wash of mud. And if it means anything, the typical placement of trapping -- all four corners floor-to-ceiling and all four high-side corners centered on the mix position -- made the most impact.

Anyway, the point -- Definitely, get some decent speakers. But be ready to do a lot of tail-chasing until the room is ready for those speakers.

Good to know, thank you!
Maybe I'm better off on my nice open back cans for now since the room will be a problem.
I don't plan to do tens of thousands of dollars in room treatment since it's just a hobby. This kind of sucks because I was hoping when I got out of an apartment and into a house I'd be able to build a music room. Unfortunately homes where I live are just so much.

Thanks Jimmy and others for the responses, too.

 

[cyrano]

I dont know about the NS10...I just did a lot of reading and there are those in the business who say they, by design, work very well in accomplishing a good transferable mix, with or without toilet paper over the tweeter.

That's rubbish. The NS10's were average Hifi speakers. They flunked in the market. When they were on sales, a couple of famous engineers bought them to use as second or even third pair, for comparison.

The same goes for Auratones. The first manufacturer was a furniture factory that also made small public address speakers for supermarket background muzak. Somehow, a few famous engineers started using them as mono AM radio reference. Now, everybody is paying far too much money for a mediocre speaker.

the Yamamha HS/NS10M white cone thing, are actives and the new CLANS10 stuff could be very good in at least concept.

There have been half a dozen of versions of the NS10, that only were produced because the name is famous and sells. One of those even was a 5.1 setup.

The NS1000's on the other hand, are very good speakers that are mostly unknown outside of high-end freaks, as they were only sold in numbers in Japan. I've only seen on pair over here in the flesh.

the question that seems to be repeated on the NS10 debate is "are they obsolete or some tool of the trade forever"

They ARE a reference. Everybody knows how they sound. So if you run a studio-for-hire, it might be worth the investment as second or third pair. As main monitors, forget about them.

like a SM57 works on a guitar amp, tool of the trade. My study leans to the latter and many truly feel they are a "great tool" for mixing....even though they started out as only a hifi playback test without much thought....Clearmountain didnt spend much time picking them out, he was just tossing some average joe speakers for a playback test...it could have been any speaker of the time. Hes said since, in more recent times, he uses PC speakers as playback tests too...

Ah, so you know.

others have said the Optimus 7 has a similar ability to do the job well, in comparison to other average home hifi stuff.

Another Internet myth. Not bad speakers, just not worth their usual secondhand prices. Look at Visaton's Davids. Those are the original small speakers from the 70's, but not as expensive/famous, if you can find them.

I find the evolution of these nearfields interesting, even the Auratone, its purpose was to prevent the engineers from going to the car of an old radio system and hear the mix through some average joe's car speaker of "that time era".

and its "that time era" is what makes me skeptical of Auratones and NS10's because "that time era" is long gone. These two infamous speakers are not representative of the average persons playback system anymore. So they dont align to theory they became used.

however it seems many still love them and use them on many huge billboard hits and etc..etc.. as some lo-fi check to the studios main system.

so in theory, the pros and goal of that is to have the best set you can afford, while having some lo-fi average-joe's set to hear how it sounds on a average persons playback system of "this era". (my conclusion ymmv)

which is the most common play back average joe system of "this time era"?

a) mono car radio speakers in the front dashboard of a 1950's car
b) a stereo hi-fi home speaker set like the NS10..1970-1980
c) a car stereo with subwoofers and bluetooth and three way speakers in doors and tweeter in door
d) a earbud set
e) Beats headphones
f) plastic pc speakers
g) laptop speakers <1/2inch
h) home surround sound speakers in a home theater

Choice "d" would be the majority, I'm afraid. Some earbuds are quite decent in some ears; though.

The problem is most people turn to the net for advice. And most reviews are fake, these days. There are numerous small companies out there that get paid to write positive reviews @ 20 cents a piece. These alos bury the occasional negative review very fast.

If you take a through look at Amazon reviews, for instance, it's obvious. Just take a piece of text from a positive review, paste it into Google, encased in quotes and you'll immediately find the exact same words on dozens of websites.

 

[jimmys69]

Where is my 20 cents? lol!

I agree that you don't really know until you try monitors in you space, get to know what they are telling you, and then make your own decision.

In my home studio I have been through KRK G2 5's, KRK G2 8's, Yamaha NS10M's. Numerous others in other studios. The Event TR8's and my now favorites are the Adam A7x. The Events that I used to think were weak on the low end actually sound better than I initially thought. After good acoustic treatment of my room I realized that they were the best pair of monitors I had before the ADAM purchase. The Event's lack a bit of clarity in the midrange compared to to the A7x but they are worthy.

I do also use a subwoofer so I don't miss any low end with them. IMO, you gotta have a sub to really know what you are dealing with.

Without acoustic treatment/small room however, I am not so sure a sub is necessarily a good idea. I don't have the experience to give good judgement there.

 

[CoolCat]

Its funny to me for some reason, but yeah I stated my meaningless conclusion above.
The folklore debate.

* Sound on Sound folklore is Bob C wanted hifi mix monitors to carry from studio to studio.

*Another article John Sayers states a friend asked Bob C to bring him a set of cheap speakers home for his home hifi $300, and Bob C grabbed the NS10's. When Bob C got back to his studio Power Station he swapped them in from his Auratones. He finished some mixes on the NS10 and on his way home with his friends NS10's he was amazed at how well the mix sounded in his car...so he went and bought himself a pair.

*also another post was someone in a band Bob C worked with mentioned he did the whole album on NS10 only, and never above 85db.

*where another article mentions Bob C used the NS10 as low-fi with his better KRK E7's...but also used some plastic Apple pc speakers at that time too as reference.

Folklore based on some facts....but the NS10's and Auratones have their history place in gearland.
I cant deny they've been used a lot but were they really used as the "only" monitor? Im skeptical. How many SM7 sold when MJ and others started using them on huge platinum records?

for Mix engineers it makes sense the monitors and room is # 1......for HR dudes who play and spread the cash across all the gear its limited and its a bedroom, Im leaning headphones and decent headphone amp vs speakers in a bad room.

I dont know.... "whatever works for you is best", is some passive thought. Where gear gets credibility is the dudes success and mixes.

Rami did some great stuff imo and it was car -speakers, but he was really getting some above average recordings done.
Weird?

 

[Nola]

I'm not even sure I'll have room to put up bass traps and things in an 11x10 room after I get all my gear in there.
The garage in this home is huge, so maybe I'll look into setting that up over time. For now it seems I'm screwed due to the rooms size and shape.
Oh well, I like mixing on headphones and I'm used to it, so I'll just do that and be glad I have space to at least setup my gear.

 

[CoolCat]

Where is my 20 cents? lol!

I agree that you don't really know until you try monitors in you space, get to know what they are telling you, and then make your own decision.

In my home studio I have been through KRK G2 5's, KRK G2 8's, Yamaha NS10M's. Numerous others in other studios. The Event TR8's and my now favorites are the Adam A7x. The Events that I used to think were weak on the low end actually sound better than I initially thought. After good acoustic treatment of my room I realized that they were the best pair of monitors I had before the ADAM purchase. The Event's lack a bit of clarity in the midrange compared to to the A7x but they are worthy.

I do also use a subwoofer so I don't miss any low end with them. IMO, you gotta have a sub to really know what you are dealing with.

Without acoustic treatment/small room however, I am not so sure a sub is necessarily a good idea. I don't have the experience to give good judgement there.

so what was your opinion of the infamous NS10M?

 

[CoolCat]

I'm not even sure I'll have room to put up bass traps and things in an 11x10 room after I get all my gear in there.
The garage in this home is huge, so maybe I'll look into setting that up over time. For now it seems I'm screwed due to the rooms size and shape.
Oh well, I like mixing on headphones and I'm used to it, so I'll just do that and be glad I have space to at least setup my gear.

headphones have made some great mixes. im in the same boat, while I have bigger rooms to build it up and then use it is a bit overwhelming cost wise and effort.

 

[jimmys69]

so what was your opinion of the infamous NS10M?

No real opinion other than they sounded like cheap home speakers. Which they were. I have tons of those laying around.

Anyone can mix on whatever. How it translates to other systems and rooms is the tough part. Hell, I judge final mixes of vocals in studio with a $60 pair of Phillips PC speakers and the shit stereo in my work van. It has a sub as well by the way...

 

[CoolCat]

Without acoustic treatment/small room however, I am not so sure a sub is necessarily a good idea. I don't have the experience to give good judgement there.

dude your stuff sounds fantastic, you do have exp to make good judgements for HR..... this isnt Bob Hodas sceince yet, but I consider people recording numerous bands and albums a higher level HR for sure.

 

[jimmys69]

Anyone forget to take a new pack of smokes out of an ice filled cooler from the day before, and realize the wrapping is not waterproof? UGH... I just did.

At least there is still beer in there. LOL

 

[jimmys69]

dude your stuff sounds fantastic, you do have exp to make good judgements for HR..... this isnt Bob Hodas sceince yet, but I consider people recording numerous bands and albums a higher level HR for sure.

Thanks man!

I don't promote my studio and projects like the pro's do. I work by word of mouth and for typically seasoned older bands with years of experience. I do it for fun, not really for profit. My retirement plan-so to speak.

I try to give opinions based on my experience. Don't mean I am right.

5 full albums this year and a bunch of singles out. Been a busy year. I get better/more experienced with each project.

 

[mjbphotos]

That's about the size of my room (but my room has 2 windows, one door and 2 open doorways to work around! I've got 6 4"x2'x4' traps, 2 2"x2'x4' cloud panels, suspended ceiling with 'pink stuff' stuffed around the whole perimeter and 2 'mini super chunks' in upper rear corners plus a triangle chunk in the one open front corner (above a doorway).
2 of my traps are right in front of me on the front wall, and I have JBL LSR305s backed up to them (I wouldn't recommend them without either traps behind or space due to the rear port).

Before these speakers (and traps), I was always guessing on my mixes and would listen multiple ways and still have a lot of problems with them and do a lot of adjustments, re-listen, etc.. Now the real problem is my ears!

 

[Nola]

That's about the size of my room (but my room has 2 windows, one door and 2 open doorways to work around! I've got 6 4"x2'x4' traps, 2 2"x2'x4' cloud panels, suspended ceiling with 'pink stuff' stuffed around the whole perimeter and 2 'mini super chunks' in upper rear corners plus a triangle chunk in the one open front corner (above a doorway).
2 of my traps are right in front of me on the front wall, and I have JBL LSR305s backed up to them (I wouldn't recommend them without either traps behind or space due to the rear port).

Before these speakers (and traps), I was always guessing on my mixes and would listen multiple ways and still have a lot of problems with them and do a lot of adjustments, re-listen, etc.. Now the real problem is my ears!

So you have a room that small and have been able to work with it?
That's good to know.
I guess I will see once I get in there what I can do.

 

[RFR]

For a small room like that I highly recommend a set of Equator D5s.

From our own in house mastering professional, Massive Master, I'll paraphrase. .....

They're the only speaker under a $1,000 that I wouldn't throw in a tire fire.

I've had a pair for some years now and love them.

Unlike the plastic baffle of the JBL offerings, these are all wood and real solid with front porting. I love the coaxial design also.
I know, I sound like an advert. Lol but the best advertising for anything is customer word of mouth. They're a sleeper and not as well known as JBLs just because they're a smaller company.

I don't know current new pricing, but used, if and when you can find them, they're about 300 bucks for a pair.

 

[mjbphotos]

For a small room like that I highly recommend a set of Equator D5s.

From our own in house mastering professional, Massive Master, I'll paraphrase. .....

They're the only speaker under a $1,000 that I wouldn't throw in a tire fire.

I've had a pair for some years now and love them.

Unlike the plastic baffle of the JBL offerings, these are all wood and real solid with front porting. I love the coaxial design also.
I know, I sound like an advert. Lol but the best advertising for anything is customer word of mouth. They're a sleeper and not as well known as JBLs just because they're a smaller company.

I don't know current new pricing, but used, if and when you can find them, they're about 300 bucks for a pair.

I don't think the Equators are made any more. I saw a used pair on reverb.com for $475 + shipping. The Adam F5 might be a good alternate if you've got that range of money. The JBLs can be had for under $300 - wait for a sale.

---------- Update ----------

So you have a room that small and have been able to work with it?
That's good to know.
I guess I will see once I get in there what I can do.

Yes, but room treatment is absolutely required, and like any speakers, you've got to learn them.

 

[RFR]

I don't think the Equators are made any more. I saw a used pair on reverb.com for $475 + shipping. The Adam F5 might be a good alternate if you've got that range of money. The JBLs can be had for under $300 - wait for a sale.

Bummer. Seems they have gone. Damn! I wanted a set of D8s too.
Haven't checked since a year ago, but D5s were on the bay for 300 and D8s were going for 5 or so.
Oh well, good monitors.