Isolation wall without rockwool (bass blocking)

:rolleyes: :facepalm:

THIS is what I'm talking about...your own first post where you asked questions...and now you're acting like you don't know why people are answering them.

I'm not acting like anything at all. There's no question there about what happens in a hollow wall.

miroslav said:
Take the materials you mentioned above ^^^...and EXPERIMENT with them until YOU find what works for YOU.
You are wasting time talking about it....go try it out.

This thread is going nowhere because you keep coming back to the same questions...and then you seem confused when you get the same answers.

Have I insulted you somehow, some time in the past? Why do you seem so angry with me?
 
The problem with an all plasterboard wall is that any vibration that hits one side is conducted straight through to the other side and re-radiated (albeit at a lower level). You need an air gap to prevent sound from being conducted from one side to the other. Have you ever put your ear up against a single skin solid wall? If you have you will probably have heard everything going on in the next room (or next house if you live somewhere like my first house with only a single layer between each half of a semi detached house). You seem to be arguing against basic acoustic principals here which is probably why people are becoming a little tired of it.
 
Why do you seem so angry with me?


I would have to actually care about what happens to your acoustic treatment to get angry about your misguided perspective.

The only small annoyance in all this...is with the initial belief that you were actually looking for some simple answers to a simple question...but it now appears that you're more interested in just kicking the can and avoiding the acceptance of the answers that are provided, which in most cases would have brought the discussion to a conclusion and some agreement.

At this point I truly don't know what more you want in this thread or what your plans are with acoustic treatment....you just keep going back to the same thing, re-asking the same questions about some theoretical views that you've come up with, that you tend to give as some challenge that needs to be proven or disproven by someone else, but not by you.

Honestly...rather than wasting time here...why don't you just try out the different materials, with how ever many layers you want, do some comparisons, take some measurements...and come to your own conclusions. Prove it to yourself...challenge your own ideas...
...but I know, it's much easier to just kick the can here, without actually doing anything yourself.
 
The problem with an all plasterboard wall is that any vibration that hits one side is conducted straight through to the other side and re-radiated (albeit at a lower level). You need an air gap to prevent sound from being conducted from one side to the other. Have you ever put your ear up against a single skin solid wall? If you have you will probably have heard everything going on in the next room (or next house if you live somewhere like my first house with only a single layer between each half of a semi detached house). You seem to be arguing against basic acoustic principals here which is probably why people are becoming a little tired of it.

Mic drop answer.

Please listen to the advice you have been given spitzer.

Do what you decide is necessary, but don't balk at those trying to help. You are only confusing yourself man.

And that is also not going to work well for you when you want more help in the future. Starting off by arguing with people that actually have experience and debating with them is pretty much asinine.

Good luck man....
 
Mic drop answer.

Please listen to the advice you have been given spitzer.

Do what you decide is necessary, but don't balk at those trying to help. You are only confusing yourself man.

And that is also not going to work well for you when you want more help in the future. Starting off by arguing with people that actually have experience and debating with them is pretty much asinine.

Good luck man....

I don't get this at all. My intention is to be nice and discuss things. I don't recall arguing with anyone on this thread. I was just writing a reply to jamesperrett but I accidentally hit a wrong key and got shot out of the window. Anyway, where or when did I argue against "basic acoustic principles"?

Like I said, my intention is to be nice. But I absolutely do not appreciate it when I get some pretty harsh feedback for something I never did. I've been following the replies with great interest and made some observations of my own but at NO point did I argue or debate with "people that actually have experience".

Mic drop.
 
The problem with an all plasterboard wall is that any vibration that hits one side is conducted straight through to the other side and re-radiated (albeit at a lower level). You need an air gap to prevent sound from being conducted from one side to the other. Have you ever put your ear up against a single skin solid wall? If you have you will probably have heard everything going on in the next room (or next house if you live somewhere like my first house with only a single layer between each half of a semi detached house). You seem to be arguing against basic acoustic principals here which is probably why people are becoming a little tired of it.

Thank you. This has been the best actual answer so far (post number #22!). To quickly explain, to everyone, why I'm still "arguing" about this thing: NOT EVERYTHING "has already been answered", like some have been trying to say since about 15 posts ago. There's a considerable amount of conflicting information. I quote from the first page (the very first reply, in fact):

rob aylestone said:
... [the] more mass in the walls you can get in my own practical experience makes a difference. An extra 18mm of plasterboard is better at preventing bass leakage than stuffing the gap with anything. ...

Now, as far as I know, Rob Aylestone is most definitely someone who "actually has experience" and I have a lot of trust in that he knows what he is talking about. If you look at the first 10 or so replies, the consensus was not what it seems to be now. No one said "You need an air gap" until your post here. (jamesperrett)

Speaking of air gaps, my understanding of them is that dealing with them is somewhat of a risky business. There was someone on this forum earlier who said he had built what he thought was an extremely impressive isolation wall (with rockwool) -- only to find out later that it actually works as a giant bass amplifier.

This is all meant to be just absolutely normal friendly discussion. If someone here thinks this is all just "asinine" and/or that I personally am "asinine", then... I'm sorry? I guess. In my personal opinion a discussion forum where actual discussion is not allowed or discouraged and you're just supposed to "experiment" with something is asinine.

Best regards.
 
Constrained/resilient damping layer.

Sound Damp2

Or could be a fibre board product ala BBC camden wall.

g

That looks a lot like the Green Glue stuff...to be put between drywall layers.


Oh AFA the now new "air gap" thing...it was pretty clear to the people who understand this stuff somewhat, that when you have walls with insulation, there is a gap between the outer and inner layers of the wall. I mean...it's not like you need to define it clearly as an "air gap" for someone to understand that there is one...well, maybe for some folks.

The whole concept is explained in the Rod Gervais book (which I mentioned back in the 3rd post of this thread)...it's the 2-leaf system...where you have a layer, and air gap (usually filled with insulation) and then a second layer. You don't want to have 3 or 4 leaf system where it's layer, gap, layer, gap layer...because that actually causes more problems.
You can have 10 layers stuck together to create on thick one...then a gap...then another layer or 10 layers.

But all this is easy to find in the countless acoustics treatment web pages (or books, like I mentioned above)....if people would just go look for it and read it, instead of making their own assumptions and comping up with their own acoustic designs without any scientific research.

We've had one thread about Styrofoam...now this thread about NOT using fiberglass/rockwool...and the endless confusion just keeps on going...even though all the answers have been provided.
Now suddenly there is a EUREKA! moment because the term "air gap" was used...:facepalm:....even though that is all part of the common, known, described, written about, discussed and scientifically measured compilation of readily available research for anyone that wants to take the time to review it...and follow it, instead of looking for some "new" approach that no one else uses. :rolleyes:

The only problem here is that clear answers are provided to questions...and they are either ignored or rebuked...and then the same questions get asked again.
Really...what more needs to be explained before it finally makes sense?
I mean that seriously...because I think everyone has done their best, yet the OP still seems to be unsure and no closer to understanding what is being said.
Is it some kind of language barrier...terminology...what is the confusion still about?
 
How about we all take a breath and chill.

There is no one correct answer for any given space because they are all different. The basic info is available.

I apologize for the 'asinine' comment. I wasn't calling you an ass. Just saying that you have had good advice as to what to do or where to look for the information you asked for.

And even then, you won't really know until you build it and see/hear if it works for you and your particular build.

Nobody here is knocking you down man. We have all been through this and questioning is how we got where we are.

Nothing but hoping you get what you want accomplished. I am not trying to be a dick. It just comes naturally. lol!

Cheers man!

And you all missed my birthday yesterday. Fuckerz! LMAO!
 
.

And even then, you won't really know until you build it and see/hear if it works for you and your particular build.

Something I've suggested a couple or times...trial & error is one way to get there, because sometimes just the theory may not be possible in a given situation or it need to be adjusted to fit. I just don't know what the discussion is about here anymore, since the basic questions have been answered.

Oh...and where's the cake, birthday boy?
 
Well...after we all chill...are there anymore questions that need to be answered...again?

You truly are an asshole sometimes Miro. LOL! Maybe not getting my cake makes you grumpy? :)

I get it, the info is there already. Let it go brother. <3
 
You truly are an asshole sometimes Miro. LOL! Maybe not getting my cake makes you grumpy? :)

I get it, the info is there already. Let it go brother. <3

Well...maybe I am, but then, it takes one to know one ;)...:D....

Anyway...there is now a third thread covering pretty much the same topic...so maybe I'm just being grumpy because I'm not seeing a way to make a simple point clear to someone. :)

I'll leave it to you...I'm running out of new ways to explain the same thing. :p
 
Well...maybe I am, but then, it takes one to know one ;)...:D....

Anyway...there is now a third thread covering pretty much the same topic...so maybe I'm just being grumpy because I'm not seeing a way to make a simple point clear to someone. :)

I'll leave it to you...I'm running out of new ways to explain the same thing. :p

HA! Yep, we have that in common. I already stated that I am naturally a dick. :)

I get it man.

Hey spitzer, just do research, listen to what we have to say, and make your build decisions based on what you find to be correct. It may be right, and hopefully so.

There is so much wrong information on the net... I have wasted time and money myself and only wish to help. Miro is constructing a building from scratch. He has likely the most experience and advice that you could hope for. Take it for what his time responding to you is worth. You only paid $00 for it. He likely paid over $40,000. Take it with a chill pill and use others experience to make your situation better.

Again, Cheers bro.
 
I like to read the books, and despite my background, the maths is pretty complex to not just understand, but relate to circumstances. It always seems to need data I just never had. I was trying to look back through my studio self-build history and how successful they were.
Radio studio and vocal booth
Media studio and edit suites
Large two room audio studio
recording studio
rehearsal room
2 x radio studios
two room compact audio studio
edit suite

I improved the building technique each new build, but still made mistakes. All these projects had isolation a key factor - they needed to keep sound in, and keep outside sound out.

The various books provided tips - Rod's book probably the most useful I think. The differences in them tended to be doors, and the amount of thickness in the walls. I spent ages on one putting insulation board between the plasterboard and came to the conclusion it did nothing much audio wise, but did assist in reducing mechanical noise from getting out. Banging the plasterboard heard from outside through the cavity was definitely reduced and kick drum leakage seemed less. If only I'd recorded the leakage on something quantifiable I'd know for certain - so all my comments are subjective really. The maths to calculate how the pulling out of a set of walls would change the sound was beyond me so for the large room I built the walls so they were freestanding and the ceiling basically sat on the top, and we moved the walls with crowbars with an amp speakers and playback inside. No audio treatment, just walls that moved and the difference in sound was quite obvious. The we had a nice sound, we stopped, and then bolted the walls together and modified the roof so it fitted properly. We then built the outer shell around it - leaving a person thickness between that and the building solid walls. This was by far the best sounding, and best sound proofing of all the projects. Once the treatment - foam and a couple of large membrane bass traps were in - it was great to work in. The radio studios were all damped for speech (using second hand BBC reclaimed units for the first which we copied for the later ones.

I know now how doors can leak, and yet windows seem to be much simpler than I thought. I've made loads of mistakes, but every time, things get better - and it's fun. Extra layers of plasterboard are very effective. Putting the ground plates of timber stud walls on expensive neoprene was probably pointless. Small air gap or big air gap made no difference I could spot, but rock wool in the cavity with less wall thickness worked better than no rock wool. No rock wool and an extra layer of plasterboard worked pretty well, and plasterboard is cheap compared to rock wool. 8" ducting is good, 4" is horrible - just noisy the you shift lots of foul air. I solved the door leakage by using proper solid frame top and sides - AND on the floor, it does make a step but it's manageable (just use really hard wood - mahogany not pine or lighter timber because footwear is surprising on ordinary timber. My trick was to hang the door on one side, onto the 100x25mm framing top to bottom. Then add the top with a small gap - 5mm or ¼" that kind of gap, with the same at the bottom. Then add the timber on the closing, catch side again with 5mm gap. A rather easier process than making the 'hole' then trying too hang a door square in it! Then to seals it a rectangle of 50x18mm timber with neoprene seal on the door side, and with the door catch fitted and working, push the rectangle into place and slightly compress the neoprene - and fix. A simple perfect seal. Never seen that in the self-build books, but I do this every time now and you get doors that close and seal properly. Windows wise - 2 panes of 6mm half an inch apart on each wall, with the bigger gap where the wall cavity is. This seems to be as good as a couple of layers of 9mm plasterboard so not the weak link I thought.

I have leakage in my current studio - caused by me wanting safety. It's a long space, only 2.5m wide, but around 7m long, and as it's soundproof I've always been worried about fire. One door means one exit and I wasn't comfy with this, so at one point at the no door end, there is one 600mm section that is a single skin of plasterboard. If necessary I could kick through it, then through the other sheet across the cavity into my store. Not really a fire door, but no way could I escape through anywhere else - so that one corner has leakage designed in - and is my current weak link, but hopefully, escape route and I can live with the leakage into the store. Luckily, this is full of stuff, and makes an effective sound trap before the real world the other side.
 
Miro is constructing a building from scratch. He has likely the most experience and advice that you could hope for. Take it for what his time responding to you is worth. You only paid $00 for it. He likely paid over $40,000.

Here's the thing...I have the most experience with MY build project.
I adjusted the absolute best (read- most involved and most expensive) approach to building a pro studio...based on my needs.
IOW...while I followed some of the pro build information, I didn't need to build a commercial grade studio, so I adjusted some of the requirements to suit my goals, and my budget...but it's important to at least understand what it takes to build it "best case"...and then you can downgrade from there to suit your own needs and budget.

AFA my cost...well, it ain't been cheap, but then, much of the cost is for the basic construction and similar to what anyone would pay for typical home additions, etc...so not really all specific to "studio construction"...though some of the additional work and treatments have/will certainly add a nice chunk to the total expense.

Also...I tend to be more focused on the aesthetics of the space, rather than trying to build a bunker-grade studio space...and of course, more focused on the sound quality rather than on soundproofing....but that too is a per-person need/preference thing.
 
. All these projects had isolation a key factor - they needed to keep sound in, and keep outside sound out.

While I have considered that requirement, and in this new build originally planned for it...I also realized that it wasn't an absolute necessity for my situation.
If I was building in an urban, noisy environment with critical neighbors, etc,...then it's needed, but I don't have that situation.
Oh for sure...if my neighbor is out there running a lawnmower, I'm going to hear it as a faint sound inside the studio...but not enough to where it ends up in any recordings. Likewise, if I have a drummer banging away, I could stand outside and hear it...it's muffled, but not 100% contained...but it is enough so that it isn't annoying anyone.

Commercial studios have a much more critical need for 100% soundproofing...but like you discovered, you have to have the room-in-room or some other involved build design in order to get to 100% soundproofing...and it adds a lot to the build in effort, materials and cost....and then...you STILL have to treat the inside for acoustic audio quality and/or build it in with the overall construction while also building for 100% soundproofing.
It's not a relatively simple task..as I'm sure you know! :D

I mentioned in another post here or maybe one of the other ongoing threads...that I notice in the home recording world, the majority of guys seem to be focused on soundproofing when they ask for advice on how to build or what materials to use in an existing space to get soundproofing, which is often difficult to do, since most typical houses/building are not focused on 100% soundproofing...so no matter how much you "throw" at the problem, you still can't get there...and often it's solved best with a ground-up build.
I don't deny that some of the home rec people have a need to soundproof...but I can't help but notice that not many are concerned about sound quality in their spaces....mostly how to keep sound in.

With my own studio build...I seriously considered the room-in-room. I knew that would get me close to optimal soundproofing, but then as we got to that stage,. I gave it some more thought and decided that doing the second room inside the room would both reduce my overall room size and add a nice chunk of cost in the process. So I opted to not go that route because I realized that in the 20 years I've been here with my old studio setup where there was no formal soundproofing and the walls had even less "beef" to them than codes currently require...I never had a problem with sound going out or coming in.
Like now...I have 4 large windows in the new studio...where I originally wanted to avoid them, but then I knew how much I enjoyed the view and the daylight coming into the studio...so I'm glad we put them in, but yes, they don't improve the sound control...but I will be able to deal with that if needed.

So like I already mentioned...I'm more about the audio quality in the room...and certainly the "vibe"...attention to aesthetics and visual details, etc.
I think that stuff for me, goes a long way to creating a studio space that is comfortable and pleasing to be in...with a good sound. This new studio was all about having a large open room...which is why I didn't bother with control rooms or iso-booths...and I can certainly work around not having those things...but in return, I hope to have a dynamite tracking/mixing space.

Short anecdote...
I was at a somewhat local studio a few months back to buy up some equipment because the guy was closing it down permanently. I was quite impressed with the build quality...inside it was all rough-cut wood on the walls, but in-between that layer and the drywall/outside, he had lined the walls with lead sheets!!!
He said it was a real job to do that, and he had acquired the lead sheets somewhere, I forget...but the result was a pretty near 100% soundproof room.
I told him about my build, and he looked at me and said not to waste my time going that crazy...because he understood that I didn't have a need to be 100% soundproof....and he even said looking back, he now realized it was way overkill...since he also didn't have that need, but kinda just followed the typical commercial studio build.
His live room was not huge, but decent size, tall ceiling...yet his control room was actually small and the back wall you could almost lean onto from the mix position...and right away he said if had to do it over, he would push the control room wall back at least another 10'...which was my thought too. He also had a bunch of small iso booths, but only used them occasionally.
So while you can follow a typical commercial studio design approach...it's not always the best way to go for every situation...which is why I constantly tell home rec builders to rethink their plans to do a small control room and small live room, and just open it up...but people get stuck in that mindset. It has to be soundproof and with all these smaller individual rooms...which has a legit purpose...but is not always necessary, and often uncomfortable if you work solo a lot.
The idea of constantly walking from a control room to the live room when working alone...would be tedious. With the open room, I can just move freely...but that's my approach.
 
Back
Top