Building a pro studio on an amateur budget - triple leaf and other fun

conan

New member
I'm sure there are countless numbers of similar posts, but as this will likely drag on for a few months as my project comes together, I'd like to give some background information so you know what I'm working with and why I'm doing it.. Skip to the last few paragraphs for my actual question about double/triple leaf construction.

I am a dance music producer working on commercial projects; that is, like many people here, I make music for a living. A few years ago I decided that I could no longer work at home due to the noise I make, and eventually found a city centre office in the middle of various bars and clubs, meaning I can make as much noise as I like. Rent has now got very expensive and I decided that instead of spending lots of money every month, I could spend one big chunk of money and end up with a much nicer, more professional studio environment.

I'm not rich, but after buying a new property I have about £6000 (~$10,000) to invest in the new studio, which will be spent entirely on sound reduction, acoustic treatment and general building. Despite having a limited budget I have the distinct advantage of patience and a willingness to get my hands as dirty as necessary. I have a colleague willing to help me, but unfortunately he hates DIY so I'll be doing the bulk of the thinking and donkey work. I have read through these forums (and many others) back-to-back. I've visited pretty much every related site I could find, including the excellent SAE guides and various generic DIY sites. I also bought a big fat book on advanced DIY topics so I can be confident about getting the basics right. I'm now about 50% confident that I will be able to design and implement the project so that a good degree of sound reduction will be achieved and the whole place won't fall down on me. I know it's going to be damn hard work but I don't care; all I can see is the end result.

The building is in a semi-commercial area; the ground floor (US 1st) is a shop in active use but separated from the upper two floors. The first (US 2nd) floor I intend to use as office space, storage and reception area, so some degree of sound leaking down here won't be a problem. Any noticeable sound leaking down to the shop will be unacceptable and get me kicked out (read: BAD NEWS). The second (US 3rd) floor has two rooms and will hold a main studio with isolated vocal room, plus a smaller project studio. For now I will be concentrating on the larger main studio.

After doing all that reading, having a few good cups of tea (I do have to fulfil my British stereotypes, after all) and thinking I was awfully clever, I drafted up initial plans for the large studio. In the early stages, after learning about all that mass-air-mass business, my idea was to create two isolated floating rooms, one for the control room and the other a vocal booth. The new walls were to be constructed six inches from the existing wall with an insulated 2x4 frame, carefully sealed layer of wallboard, resilient channel, another layer of wallboard then plaster. Being awfully, awfully clever, I thought, 'ooh, if I do that again, won't it increase the sound reduction?', and proceeded to add another six inch gap/frame/wallboard/channel/wallboard construction to the plans. I then read about the whole double/triple leaf thing, resonance and all that jazz, and proceeded to feel awfully stupid. I'm now confused.. help!

a) will I really get better sound reduction out of my floating room construction with just one additional wall, thereby creating a single air gap between the existing walls (all plastered; one outer, two adjoining, one inner)? If properly done, will this give a reduction of, say, 60db, which would be sufficient considering that we normally whack out around 100db in the control room? Should I attach additional sealed layers of plaster to the first leaf (i.e. existing walls) rather than build a second set of walls within the floating room construction (my guess: the latter is stupid)?

b) should a resilient channel be considered in the whole 2/3 leaf situation? Does an extra wallboard layer attached in such a manner count as an extra leaf?

Thanks everyone! I promise that as construction gets underway I'll take lots of pictures and try to keep up to date with problems/successes that may help anyone else considering something similar.
 
conan said:
The new walls were to be constructed six inches from the existing wall with an insulated 2x4 frame, carefully sealed layer of wallboard, resilient channel, another layer of wallboard then plaster. Being awfully, awfully clever, I thought, 'ooh, if I do that again, won't it increase the sound reduction?', and proceeded to add another six inch gap/frame/wallboard/channel/wallboard construction to the plans. I then read about the whole double/triple leaf thing, resonance and all that jazz, and proceeded to feel awfully stupid. I'm now confused.. help!

OK - 1st of all........ you began badly.

You do not need RC with double wall construction - you don't gsain anything from it.

But - if you do use it - you NEVER EVER go wallboard - rc and more wallboad.

It's supposed to be studs - RC - 2 layers of wallboard.

So you created a 3 leaf system right off the bat......... and then added another 2 layers to it......

So now you have a 5 leaf system - and I have no way (and I would be surprised if anyone else did) of figuring out what the value of this wall really is.

So let's start with this...........

Have you made any noise inside this space and gone below to hear the results?

That would be the starting point from my perspective.

I say this because - seeing as you have already comitted this money and material - it would be just plain nonesense to tear it all apart if you got the results you need - this even if you could have 15 or 20 better tl values if it was done right.

SO let's start with the question "do you really have a problem?" and see where it goes from there.

Rod
 
I gradually figured this out as I read up on the physics behind studio construction; the nonsense that some people who claim to be professionals come out with is quite awful. I am sure you can understand how this gets confusing when most professionals keep their secrets, well, secret, and everyone else spouts a lot of contradictory information. Without this forum I might be a very disappointed studio owner by now.

Apologies if I didn't make it clear, but I haven't yet started any construction; I prefer 'ask first, get it right' than 'ask later, tear it all down'.

As it stands, any noise carries right to the bottom of the building, and I believe the adjoining buildings' upper floors are apartments. Getting this right is pretty important. So, please correct me if I'm wrong, but at this stage it seems a single floating room construction is the way to go. Should mass be added to the existing wall as well as the new internal wall?

You may have saved me a lot of unecessary work and money.. I guess I should buy you a beer!

Cheers for your help,
Rich

Rod Gervais said:
OK - 1st of all........ you began badly.

You do not need RC with double wall construction - you don't gsain anything from it.

But - if you do use it - you NEVER EVER go wallboard - rc and more wallboad.

It's supposed to be studs - RC - 2 layers of wallboard.

So you created a 3 leaf system right off the bat......... and then added another 2 layers to it......

So now you have a 5 leaf system - and I have no way (and I would be surprised if anyone else did) of figuring out what the value of this wall really is.

So let's start with this...........

Have you made any noise inside this space and gone below to hear the results?

That would be the starting point from my perspective.

I say this because - seeing as you have already comitted this money and material - it would be just plain nonesense to tear it all apart if you got the results you need - this even if you could have 15 or 20 better tl values if it was done right.

SO let's start with the question "do you really have a problem?" and see where it goes from there.

Rod
 
You should definitely listen to Rod; if you don't want to believe me, you could always call Stephen Spielberg for a reference (no, I'm NOT kidding) - as far as listening to any of your LOCAL "experts", I'd be really careful there; I've yet to find a local contractor in MY area (Pacific Northwest, USA) who has the faintest idea of what does and does NOT work for sound isolation. In fact, I just had the painful experience (again) of having to tell someone on another forum just how bad they had been "had" by someone who knew less than my wife does about soundproofing - damn, I hate having to do that... Steve
 
I guessed as much from the advice I have seen him give elsewhere. Even buying material such as glass and caulking is taking a lot of careful deliberation, and I have yet to find anyone within a 100 mile radius who knows what they're talking about. I figured you'd rather I came for advice now so you can have a part in my doing something good, rather than go into construction with all guns blazing then have you tell me that, er, well, actually, it's all wrong.

knightfly said:
You should definitely listen to Rod; if you don't want to believe me, you could always call Stephen Spielberg for a reference (no, I'm NOT kidding) - as far as listening to any of your LOCAL "experts", I'd be really careful there; I've yet to find a local contractor in MY area (Pacific Northwest, USA) who has the faintest idea of what does and does NOT work for sound isolation. In fact, I just had the painful experience (again) of having to tell someone on another forum just how bad they had been "had" by someone who knew less than my wife does about soundproofing - damn, I hate having to do that... Steve
 
Conan,

You're going to find that people within 1000 miles have no clue either.

A short story if I may... A few years back I had length discussions with John L Sayers, a smart bloke who designs studios for a living, regarding commercial space I was attempting to acquire, and turn into a studio. I took some of John's ideas and passed them to my architect, who was supposed to give me a ballpark on what it would cost in materials and blueprints. This was all budgetary, and a lot of minute details were left out because I hadn't actually contracted John to do a formal design... I was waiting to take ownership of the building first (logical, no?).

Anyway, this highly respected architect, who claimed to have designed four recording studios in the past, seemingly had absolutely no clue of some of the minor things John had put forth in an email to me, about specific methods of construction. No clue. So, I asked "which four studios", and it turned out to be just one studio, somewhat local. I called that studio and they wouldn't give me a tour as a reference, and were outright hostile since I was not a customer. So, being a persistant prick, I had my cousin make the call and I coached him into pretending he was a producer, looking for a local studio for a quick job, and possibly other jobs in the future, but he wanted to see the studio first. They agreed, we walked in, and it was a horrible studio from what I could see. While the workmanship, painting and moulding was gorgeous in every way, even basic speech echo'd funny in the live room as well as the console room. In the live room I could hear the furnace kick on and off as it clanged through the ductwork. They apparently thought putting white gym socks over their microphones eliminated that noise from being recorded, and were proud of their discovery as I inquired about the socks I saw.

Apparently their concept of sound treatment was 2 tons of purple auralex foam and socks on the microphones. yeah, I'm impressed. I ended up not getting the building due to titling issues, which saved me the aggrevation of finding an architect I didn't want to choke to death, but that's another story. I still feel bad for John that he put any effort into this at all, just to have it collapse for both of us. His initial design of his view of what my studio could be was absolutely astounding, and would have been worth what his fee would have been had this all gone forward.

Anyway, the moral of the story is good studio designers are few and far between, and don't use socks on your microphones.
 
Hello Conan, and welcome to the board. Forgive my lack of help in the first post, as we see people post here all the time who have ALREADY built rooms that NOW they want to CORRECTLY REsoundproof. I don't know how I got the idea that you had ALREADY built this. Must have been tired when I read your post. It is GOOD, you haven't actually started construction yet. Fortunately, in the last few years, because of the net, people like John Sayers
Steve, frederic, Rod, Michael, and many others who REALLY REALLY know thier stuff, have been able to help COUNTLESS people here, including me, and on other forums. Listen to what they have to offer, because, for the last few years, I have been studying what they have to say, and have discovered they know what they are talking about. Some people, EVEN professional acoustitions have posted things here that didn't make sense, and because of knowledge passed from these other gentleman, I was able to determine they didn't have a clue to the real world physics or current technical practice or even common sense relative to this forum, even though they had degrees. Isolation construcion is NOT intuitive, and to some extent contridicts common sense, UNTILL you understand the principles these gentleman explain, OVER and OVER and OVER. You have already started on the most mind boggleing journey imagineable :D but fortunately, you have GUIDES through the material , technique, and solution selection jungle. Expert guides, who will save you from expensive detours, snake oil salesman,
and professionals who are clueless to the true map that will take you to the holy grail. Ha! Listen to them and you WILL succeed.
fitZ :)
 
Job's a good'n :) I start construction in less than a week and while I can start on the offices etc. for now there's stuff I need to get going on pretty soon. I found a place that can supply suitable glass for the control room window in 3/8" and 1/2" thicknesses but their lead time is ten days so that's pretty high on my 'whoops.. better get that sorted' list. I don't even know what suitable width/height dimensions for the panes are. And then I read contradictory information about how the window should be built. Oh dear, oh dear. I've read more about floating floor construction than I ever cared (or dared) so I'm pretty comfortable about that, but everything else is hazy at best. Ahhhh!

fitZ2 said:
Hello Conan, and welcome to the board. Forgive my lack of help in the first post, as we see people post here all the time who have ALREADY built rooms that NOW they want to CORRECTLY REsoundproof. I don't know how I got the idea that you had ALREADY built this. Must have been tired when I read your post. It is GOOD, you haven't actually started construction yet. Fortunately, in the last few years, because of the net, people like John Sayers
Steve, frederic, Rod, Michael, and many others who REALLY REALLY know thier stuff, have been able to help COUNTLESS people here, including me, and on other forums. Listen to what they have to offer, because, for the last few years, I have been studying what they have to say, and have discovered they know what they are talking about. Some people, EVEN professional acoustitions have posted things here that didn't make sense, and because of knowledge passed from these other gentleman, I was able to determine they didn't have a clue to the real world physics or current technical practice or even common sense relative to this forum, even though they had degrees. Isolation construcion is NOT intuitive, and to some extent contridicts common sense, UNTILL you understand the principles these gentleman explain, OVER and OVER and OVER. You have already started on the most mind boggleing journey imagineable :D but fortunately, you have GUIDES through the material , technique, and solution selection jungle. Expert guides, who will save you from expensive detours, snake oil salesman,
and professionals who are clueless to the true map that will take you to the holy grail. Ha! Listen to them and you WILL succeed.
fitZ :)
 
It seems that the old adage is true: if you want a job doing, do it yourself. And order more socks.

frederic said:
Conan,

You're going to find that people within 1000 miles have no clue either.

A short story if I may... A few years back I had length discussions with John L Sayers, a smart bloke who designs studios for a living, regarding commercial space I was attempting to acquire, and turn into a studio. I took some of John's ideas and passed them to my architect, who was supposed to give me a ballpark on what it would cost in materials and blueprints. This was all budgetary, and a lot of minute details were left out because I hadn't actually contracted John to do a formal design... I was waiting to take ownership of the building first (logical, no?).

Anyway, this highly respected architect, who claimed to have designed four recording studios in the past, seemingly had absolutely no clue of some of the minor things John had put forth in an email to me, about specific methods of construction. No clue. So, I asked "which four studios", and it turned out to be just one studio, somewhat local. I called that studio and they wouldn't give me a tour as a reference, and were outright hostile since I was not a customer. So, being a persistant prick, I had my cousin make the call and I coached him into pretending he was a producer, looking for a local studio for a quick job, and possibly other jobs in the future, but he wanted to see the studio first. They agreed, we walked in, and it was a horrible studio from what I could see. While the workmanship, painting and moulding was gorgeous in every way, even basic speech echo'd funny in the live room as well as the console room. In the live room I could hear the furnace kick on and off as it clanged through the ductwork. They apparently thought putting white gym socks over their microphones eliminated that noise from being recorded, and were proud of their discovery as I inquired about the socks I saw.

Apparently their concept of sound treatment was 2 tons of purple auralex foam and socks on the microphones. yeah, I'm impressed. I ended up not getting the building due to titling issues, which saved me the aggrevation of finding an architect I didn't want to choke to death, but that's another story. I still feel bad for John that he put any effort into this at all, just to have it collapse for both of us. His initial design of his view of what my studio could be was absolutely astounding, and would have been worth what his fee would have been had this all gone forward.

Anyway, the moral of the story is good studio designers are few and far between, and don't use socks on your microphones.
 
conan said:
Job's a good'n :) I start construction in less than a week and while I can start on the offices etc. for now there's stuff I need to get going on pretty soon. I found a place that can supply suitable glass for the control room window in 3/8" and 1/2" thicknesses but their lead time is ten days so that's pretty high on my 'whoops.. better get that sorted' list. I don't even know what suitable width/height dimensions for the panes are. And then I read contradictory information about how the window should be built. Oh dear, oh dear. I've read more about floating floor construction than I ever cared (or dared) so I'm pretty comfortable about that, but everything else is hazy at best. Ahhhh!


OK - 1st things 1st - have you had your property analyzed by a structural engineer to verify that the loads you are going to impose ion this floor won't cause a massive catastrophy?

You need to understand that typical construction practices do not take into account adding loads like you're talking about here......

SO that is the 1st step in your process.

NEXT - assuming that this nice structural engineer says "no problem" - then you have to explain as much as you possibly can about the existing building structure.

i.e.: wall construction - floor construction - window types - an existing layout of the space would be nice.

Heating / Air COnditioning systems - are they individual or common -

A good description of the water supply and waste piping.

One of the reasons I ask for all of this is to better understand what other problems you might encounter (such as flanking noise paths, etc.)

Talk with you soon,

Rod
 
I'm on it! We're going in tomorrow to take photos, get detailed measurements and rip out some plasterboard to get a sneaky peak at what's lurking underneath. A building surveyor is already booked; that was pretty much my first concern as it's on the top floor with some worrying damp problems in one corner. BTW, this is England - 'air conditioner' isn't in our vocabulary so at least we have the benefit of starting afresh.

Cheers,
Rich

Rod Gervais said:
OK - 1st things 1st - have you had your property analyzed by a structural engineer to verify that the loads you are going to impose ion this floor won't cause a massive catastrophy?

You need to understand that typical construction practices do not take into account adding loads like you're talking about here......

SO that is the 1st step in your process.

NEXT - assuming that this nice structural engineer says "no problem" - then you have to explain as much as you possibly can about the existing building structure.

i.e.: wall construction - floor construction - window types - an existing layout of the space would be nice.

Heating / Air COnditioning systems - are they individual or common -

A good description of the water supply and waste piping.

One of the reasons I ask for all of this is to better understand what other problems you might encounter (such as flanking noise paths, etc.)

Talk with you soon,

Rod
 
If you are talking about sound leaking from a third floor isoltes studio to the first floor the two things likely to be gotchas are

Structure borne sound, particularly resonances.

Ductwork.
 
Again, 'ductwork' is pretty much a non-existant word for Brits. Most sound is currently leaking as a result of poorly built internal walls and ceilings. I'm sure it's not going to be a major problem after some work.

Innovations said:
If you are talking about sound leaking from a third floor isoltes studio to the first floor the two things likely to be gotchas are

Structure borne sound, particularly resonances.

Ductwork.
 
fitZ2 said:
Terrific. I feel a bout with the Oregon bog coming on. I'll take 2 cans, and one WD-40 for my joints. :D

fitZ

If you go for three cans, shipping is free !


Check this out... I have a T1 to my server... or did... went down today at 10am give or take. I called my ISP, they called the LEC, and it appears the LEC "unplugged it because they didn't know what it was".

How's that for brilliance?
 
frederic said:
If you go for three cans, shipping is free !


Check this out... I have a T1 to my server... or did... went down today at 10am give or take. I called my ISP, they called the LEC, and it appears the LEC "unplugged it because they didn't know what it was".

How's that for brilliance?
Hahaha. Wow.

Good luck, Conan. I don't know anything about all of this to help you out. Don't forget the lava lamp.
 
they called the LEC, and it appears the LEC "unplugged it because they didn't know what it was".

Who is the LEC frederic, the Local Electric Company? Or the Lobotomized Effeciency Clerk :D
fitZ
 
Structural surveyor arrives for an initial look next week so I suppose I should probably work out what I actually intend to do with the room before he arrives..

Here's a rough floorplan (as you can guess, it wasn't made with SuperCad Auto-McArchitect 9.5.. please don't kill me):
floorplan-rough.jpg


I've had a good poke around and I'm 99% certain there are no pipes running under, above or around this room.

There is no central heating or air conditioning supply to the building.

All four walls are brick covered in dot&dab plastering fixed directly to the brick (someone obviously thinks insulation is for girls). I have no way of finding out what is on the opposite side of the two side walls, but I assume it's the same. There's a structure jutting out from one side which looks like a chimney stack from an old fireplace (most houses in this city are very old, but the chimney stack is obviously no longer in use).

Ceiling is.. falling apart and is going to have to be replaced whatever happens.

Floor is softwood planks nailed into the timbers.

Is that everything? The external construction all seems sound, and I had a trusted builder friend give it the once over a few years ago, but I'm concerned about the internal construction after poking around a bit. Even I can see that a lot of the more recent work has been done by local tradesmen with no particular regard for regulation or safety. I only mention this because I would prefer to gut the insides of this place, and I don't know if this would affect any advice you may give.

Rich

Rod Gervais said:
OK - 1st things 1st - have you had your property analyzed by a structural engineer to verify that the loads you are going to impose ion this floor won't cause a massive catastrophy?

You need to understand that typical construction practices do not take into account adding loads like you're talking about here......

SO that is the 1st step in your process.

NEXT - assuming that this nice structural engineer says "no problem" - then you have to explain as much as you possibly can about the existing building structure.

i.e.: wall construction - floor construction - window types - an existing layout of the space would be nice.

Heating / Air COnditioning systems - are they individual or common -

A good description of the water supply and waste piping.

One of the reasons I ask for all of this is to better understand what other problems you might encounter (such as flanking noise paths, etc.)

Talk with you soon,

Rod
floorplan-rough.jpg
 
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