Am I being ripped off?

Dobrato

New member
Hey guys, new member here!

So I recently received a quote for a plan which will convert one of the rooms in my flat into a home studio for mixing and recording. The room is 128 inches in height (10.6 feet), 106 inches in width (8.8 feet), and 169 inches in length (14.08 feet). The back wall is comprised almost entirely of conservatory style floor-to -ceiling windows.

I am totally green when it comes to studio plans and associated costs, and so I was wondering if some of you would so kind as to give this plan a quick gander, and let me know whether the price I've been quoted is reasonable. This plan was put together on the basis that I have no budget limitations by the way, but the guy said that he can work to a lower budget if necessary, and that a few alterations to the plan could cut off a few hundred pounds without massively detracting from the final result. While you're at it, you can also tell me if it seems like he knows his stuff. I've no reason to doubt the the guy, he seems nice and competent enough etc. But again, I'm very green, so just wanted to be sure that the price seems reasonable for what I'd be getting, hence this thread. Your educated opinions would be greatly appreciated!

Here's the plan:

"4 x 500mm wide x 580mm deep custom corner bass traps built to 1605mm tall each at £245.00 each (standard 1200mm height is £190.00) = £980.00
For front corners stacked 2 per corner to reach total height of 3210mm. This leaves a 40mm gap to the ceiling as margin. The lower traps will be fitted with extra bracings so that the top units can stack safely on top (traps of this size / height weigh over 20kg)

2 x 580mm x 580mm square bass traps built to 1605mm tall each at £255.00 each = £510.00
For rear right corner stacked to reach total height of 3210mm. Lower trap fitted with extra bracings to strengthen frame

2 x 600mm tall x 1577mm wide x 120mm deep Custom BF-125s at £105.00 each = £210.00
For front wall / behind speakers for SBIR and overall decay time control

2 x Custom BF-175s 600mm wide x 1800mm tall x 170mm (7") deep at £150.00 each = £300.00
For side wall reflection points closest to speakers

2 x BF-180s 600mm wide x 1800mm tall x 120mm (5") deep at £117.50 each = £235.00
For side wall reflection points

2 x BF-180s 600mm wide x 1800mm tall x 120mm (5") deep at £117.50 each = £235.00
For rear side walls

2 x Freestanding Custom BF-175s 800mm wide x 1800mm tall x 170mm deep fitted with real oak timber feet (hard wax oil finish) at £200.00 each = £400.00
For back wall bass control and mid / high reflections. Can be fitted with castors for an extra £15.00 per trap (castors cost us £10.00 per set of 4, so £5 for fitting them)
Due to the fabric roll width of 1.74m we'd have to cover these in 2 sections.. so front, sides, top and bottom from 1 piece of fabric, with an extra panelled section at the back, which can either be a hemmed section, or we can fit an oak bead to cover the staples used to secure the fabric

2 x Custom BF-175 Ceiling Clouds with LED downlights 800mm wide x 1800mm long x 170mm deep at £250.00 each = £500.00
Set up for ceiling use, with marine pad eye (plate hooks) pre-fitted on the back making them ready to suspend, and hidden supports under the front fabric covering to hold the sound absorbent core in place properly over time. Fitted with 2 x dimmable GU10 LED downlights per cloud - for insurance reasons these have to be wired to the mains by a qualified electrician.

Total = £3370.00 - £130.00 discount = £3240.00 no vat to add and free delivery via tracked and insured pallets."

Thoughts? Cheers!
 
I'd be more worried about losing 5" on each side of an already narrow space. The 3 grand isn't particularly out the way - but that's a lot of treatment for a small boxy space. I assume you don't have any issues requiring soundproofing, in or out - so just want deadening? That's quite a lot of absorption. I'm a bit unsure what you mean "for insurance reasons"? Wiring light circuits is NOT in the UK something that is regulated in any meaningful way. hence why DIY stores can happily sell you lights to fit yourself. Insurance wise, I have never seen a policy that actually contains a clause requiring this - it gets added in my assumption by people selling them who tell you to shift blame from them, for dodgy lighting products, to you. If you cannot wire them safely yourself, then of course, get somebody in - and you probably might have to if the cable locations are in the wrong places. What I'd want to know is HOW he came up with the list. I assume he came to the room, stuck up some equipment and analysed the characteristic of the room. He did measurements using Ease or similar and identified the resonances and areas requiring the trapping and treating? Or did he just take your measurements via email?


The first thing I'd do if I wanted to make it a studio space is to test it myself and see how flat the room is - plenty of rough ways to do this before you spend any money with sweep tones and iPhone apps. Almost certainly there will be problems making some frequencies like a sponge, and others having too much. It does sound like much of what you are buying is generic wide band absorption. How much do you need? That pile could make your space very, very dead. The window will be a big bounce back - so maybe you'll need more opposite that and less width wise. I just installed some clouds on a project and they were not as easy to get up and correct as I thought.

Three grand if you can afford it is probably about right for a pretty dead room. The question is how much do you need?
 
I can't comment on the cost, but has this contractor ever done a similar project before? If so, it might be worthwhile to check out some of his previous work, gets some opinions on the success of the installations, etc. I know a couple of companies that I would have not concern having them build a studio from the ground up, since they have done this as a normal line of work in the past.

Construction and installation are not cheap. This past year, I spent over £10,000 for a complete redo of a bathroom. Miroslav could probably tell you what he's spending on materials just for acoustic treatments in his new studio space.
 
What are you recording/mixing in that room?

I guess along with that, I'd ask what information you gave the company, and what particular specification they are providing the trapping to meet? Do they provide placement instructions, mounting hardware, etc?

And, what is the material being used in the traps? They do seem a bit deep for your average home studio. (You do realize that the trapping does not keep sound from leaving the room, right?)

Assuming the sound absorption material is good quality, I imagine that's not a horrible price if it included installation. Seems a little high for doorstep delivery. [edit: I honestly have no idea what a fair price is... I built mine.]
 
Total = £3370.00 - £130.00 discount = £3240.00 no vat to add and free delivery via tracked and insured pallets."

Thoughts? Cheers!

Your best bet is to hit a few of the many online acoustic panel retailers/manufacturers (GIK, Aurlex, etc, etc) and look at their comparable products to what you are getting...and compare the pricing.
The information is readily available - Google :)

That said...I'm building my own...and it's costing me just over $3k USD for all the material.

(30) 2' x 4' panels
(6) 2' x 2' panels

(2) 4' x 4' clouds
(2) 4' x 6' clouds

(6) 4' x 4' gobos
(6) 2' x 4' gobos

52 frames in total...with the clouds being 3.5" wide frames and the rest 2.5" wide frames.

Here is the materials breakdown...plus add to that a lot of screws and some odds-n-ends.

Studio Build Documentation - So you can compare.

I know what I'm building with my material...and what it will look like and how it will perform.
It's kinda hard to judge what that guy is actually building for you just from the measurements and basic descriptions...so you really should compare to what the ready-made options cost and what they give you...to what this guy is making for you.
 
Hey Rob, thanks for the response.

"I assume you don't have any issues requiring soundproofing, in or out - so just want deadening?"

Correct.

"What I'd want to know is HOW he came up with the list. I assume he came to the room, stuck up some equipment and analysed the characteristic of the room. He did measurements using Ease or similar and identified the resonances and areas requiring the trapping and treating? Or did he just take your measurements via email?"

I sent him a 20 second video clip of the room with the measurements and that was it—he hasn't visited the room in person.

"The first thing I'd do if I wanted to make it a studio space is to test it myself and see how flat the room is - plenty of rough ways to do this before you spend any money with sweep tones and iPhone apps."

Thanks I'll look into that. Anything in particular I should try first?

"Three grand if you can afford it is probably about right for a pretty dead room. The question is how much do you need?"

That's the thing—I really don't know. I just want it to be treated to a fairly decent (subjective terms, I know) standard such that I can mix music which will translate reliably enough to other sound systems. As far as recording, I'll mostly just be doing very simple single track fingerstyle/classical guitar recordings. Possibly vocals in the future too.
 
Hey Talisman, thanks for the response.

"I know a couple of companies that I would have not concern having them build a studio from the ground up, since they have done this as a normal line of work in the past."

Any chance you could give me the details of those companies?
 
Hey Keith, thanks for the response.

"What are you recording/mixing in that room?"

Mostly simple single track recordings of acoustic fingerstyle/classical guitar.

"I guess along with that, I'd ask what information you gave the company,"

I sent a 20 second or so video clip of the room for him to see, along with the measurements, then received that quote/plan in return. That was it.

"and what particular specification they are providing the trapping to meet?"

I don't know, I guess that's something I can ask him.

"Do they provide placement instructions, mounting hardware, etc?"

Unfortunately the quote didn't include installation, but I was told I'd receive instructions and guidance for mounting etc, if needed.

"And, what is the material being used in the traps?"

Not sure, I'll find out.

(You do realize that the trapping does not keep sound from leaving the room, right?)

Yes.

"Assuming the sound absorption material is good quality, I imagine that's not a horrible price if it included installation. Seems a little high for doorstep delivery."

Yeah i agree, I was hoping installation would be included..but alas..
 
Hey Miroslav, thanks for the response.

"Your best bet is to hit a few of the many online acoustic panel retailers/manufacturers (GIK, Aurlex, etc, etc) and look at their comparable products to what you are getting...and compare the pricing.
The information is readily available - Google :)"

I wasn't sure whether the materials being custom built would have a linear relationship with similar sized but non-custom materials. For example, a mass manufactured 8ft tall panel may not necessarily be 80% of the cost of a 10ft tall custom built panel, if significant additional costs are incurred for the service of having a panel custom built. Moreover, in addition to seeking people's views on the quote specifically, I was also hoping some more general wisdom/insights pertaining to this endeavour might come out of starting this thread (which it has), being that you guys may spot things that my rookie eyes can't. That said, I haven't done much research yet, admittedly :) ...but the thread on this forum and gearslutz has proved to be a good first port of call re research....I've already heard lots of points I'd not have otherwise considered. Interesting to hear all the conflicting opinions too (although frustrating also, as it makes it harder for me to know what the hell to do and who to listen to!).

"Here is the materials breakdown...plus add to that a lot of screws and some odds-n-ends.

- So you can compare."

Thanks man, appreciate that! Will have a gander.
 
Last edited:
Is the glass in the 8ft wall or the 16 ft wall? YOur sizes are similar to my studio here and I've got nowhere near as much absorption. In fact one end of my space is all hard walls with no treatment and the other end is much deader, and for much of the time I work in the deader end but with the exception of two larger panels both approx 8'x2.5' the treatment is wall foam 25mm. I have some corner traps and lots of thicker foam I bought but don't need. My plans said I'd have lots of nodes with cancellation and some real dead spots, but they are much more gentle than expected and I can compensate easily with eq now I know the danger spots. I do think I'd listen first then buy. I'd want to ask the person what each one is doing, why it's needed and exactly where to put it and what it will do.
 
I wasn't sure whether the materials being custom built would have a linear relationship with similar sized but non-custom materials.

Well...a custom built 2' x 8' acoustic panel will be no better than (2) 2' x 4' panels...all materials being equal.
Also...having a 10' custom panel vs. (2) ready-made 4' panels...you will not see all that much value in the extra 2' of the custom panel.

Of course...the real point I was making is that your list only talks of measurements and sizes, and some info about added bracing...but no real mention of the material that will be used in the construction process...and that could make a difference.
Based on the info, it's hard to say if they will be good or what if any adjustments you should make.

It also appears that installation is not included...so then, all you are getting is someone custom building panels, when you can buy read-made in typical sizes, have pretty much the same amount of treatment, and install them yourself (which you have to do anyway.
Most ready-made also come with some type of basic installation hardware.

You really should compare the custom traps and price quote to comparable ready-made treatment...and ask your custom guy to explain exactly what materials he uses and how he constructs them.

$4,200 USD is not a lot for 20 panels of various sizes and some pretty thick ones that you mentioned. It's more a question of the materials to be used, and is this someone does this as a side thing, in his garage...or is that the primary business for this "guy".
You really need to do some window shopping with a few online manufactures of acoustic panels/treatment...and compare similar size panels and their construction and materials used to get a better sense if you're being ripped off...and you might also get a better understanding of what is needed and why.
Go to the GIK website...they provide a lot of info on room setup and explain how treatment works...etc. That way you can make an educated decision.
Maybe you find out your custom guy actually does great work, and it turns out his panels are on par with mass produced stuff...and even less costly. :)
 
Hey Talisman, thanks for the response.

"I know a couple of companies that I would have not concern having them build a studio from the ground up, since they have done this as a normal line of work in the past."

Any chance you could give me the details of those companies?

Unfortunately, not in the UK. I'm in the US. Sadly, I checked on one of the places and it seems that Kenny, the owner, died a couple of years ago. Don't remember hearing about that. He had a nice music business, doing pro sound for concerts, with a nice recording/ performance area and music store. They are now closed.
 
Before you go further, if you haven't already done it, take out a subscription to sound on sound magazine and spend some serious time reading the back issues on acoustic treatment. It's got some seriously useful, practical stuff on these types of things and goes back to over twenty years of content. I met the two guys who do most of their acoustics treatment articles back in the 90's, decided they really did know their stuff and have taken their opinions and teeing seriously since then. Hugh Robjohns and Paul White. They're pretty much the only journalists in our industry here that I take their advice at first value. If they recommend a product that I might want but are unable to test myself, I have followed it with no concerns. They have been doing a series of home studio visits for years, sorting out people's recording issues, and treatment to cure problems is a common one. Some of the products they use to sort them might be useful for you. I just worry that you are treating problems you don't actually know you have. It does seem that it's like servicing your car just based on age, mileage and photographs. That new engine might be a really good deal, but was the old one actually faulty?
 
There is tons of information available on acoustic treatment, just search online. Building your own panels is very easy - lots of youtube videos on doing it. I built my first 6 2'x4'x4" panels for under $250 (shipping of the insulation was hefty, no local sources) and built several more for less than that. You seldom need very thick panels as ceiling clouds or as point-of-first-reflection panels.
As others have questioned - what insulation materials are being used?
For recording just a single finger-played acoustic guitar, you may need nothing more than a couple of gobo panels that you can place in a Vee in front of you when recording. Mixing in that narrow space will be a challenge regardless of treatment used.
 
Last edited:
[MENTION=1593]rob[/MENTION]

"Is the glass in the 8ft wall or the 16 ft wall?"

There isn't a 16 ft wall and the 8.8 ft measurement is for the width of the room. The height of the room is 10.8 feet and the length is 14.08 ft. The glass is at one end of the length of the room.

"I just worry that you are treating problems you don't actually know you have. It does seem that it's like servicing your car just based on age, mileage and photographs. That new engine might be a really good deal, but was the old one actually faulty?"

Interesting.

I'll check out Hugh and Paul. Thanks for the tips :)
 
Henry Studio top clouds hidden.pngHenry Studio front right render.jpgHenry Studio front wall render.jpgHenry Studio left wall.pngHenry Studio back wall clear.png

Hey everyone.

I'm waiting to hear back re the specific materials used, but I've received a more detailed breakdown of the plan and the rationale behind it. I've also attached some images which you'll hopefully all be able to see.

I really appreciate all of your advice and tips thus far, and will take them all on board to educate myself further on all this stuff. In the mean time however, feel free to share your insights on the following plan breakdown I was sent, along with the pics too:


"Please see attached the draft 3d scale plans for the bedroom space.

This is the 'ideal / budget no object' treatment plan.. but I always think it's good to start with this, then work back as needed to make it practical and within budget.

For bass trapping I've used 500mm wide x 580mm deep bass traps in front corners, and 580mm x 580mm square traps in the rear right corner. These are possibly overkill for the modes, but they'd provide excellent bass control. Better to take a sledge hammer to room modes than faff around with them, which ensures that the low end is locked into place properly. Saying that if these are too big you could go down to 400mm x 400mm squares (BF-4040s), but those are really on the limit in terms of absorption for a 40hz lowest mode.

I realise you have a curtain pole above the window, which may mean the rear traps can't be so tall.. but really this is just to give you the idea of what's needed for now.

One big benefit of this corner trap setup is the speakers are between the traps - this means the traps will absorb excess modal energy, but also deal with bass reflections off the side walls (which can also cause peaks / dips in bass response). These bass reflections are called Speaker Boundary Interface Response, and you get them off side walls, front wall (behind speakers), and the floor and ceiling. You'll notice I've kept speakers close to the front wall, and have specified 5" panels behind - this is to a) raise the frequency of the bass reflection, and then b) absorb it via the front wall panels. The ceiling clouds a long enough that they run to being directly above the speakers, so again this would help deal with SBIR off the ceiling. The idea being to get absorption around the speakers as much as possible to deal with these bass reflections.

Due to the height of the room for side wall reflection points I've used 1 x 600mm wide x 1800mm tall x 170mm (7") deep bass trap, and a 600 x 1800 x 120mm (5") next to it. This would provide a nice big / tall and deep front to back 'sweet spot' / reflection free zone at the listening position. Meaning you could stand up / move around at the listening spot without hearing any nasty / destructive reflections.

Also on side walls is another 600mm x 1800mm x 120mm deep, which is to help the back of the room sound better generally (very useful if you ever do any recording), and ensure that RT60s / decay times are in the correct time window (for a control room RT60s should be 0.2 to 0.3 seconds).

On the back wall are 2 x 800mm wide x 1800mm tall x 170mm deep (7") freestanding bass traps. These could be fitted with castors if needed, and would be fully fabric covered front and back. The traps here are to deal with loud mid/high reflections off the glass, as well as bass control down to 65hz. They won't do a lot at this thickness for the lowest 40hz length mode (you'd need to go to 350mm+ depth for that), but they'd be great for all the length harmonics (80hz, 120hz, 160hz etc..), as well as the mids and highs.

For the ceiling clouds I've used 2 x 800mm wide x 1800mm long x 170mm deep - the lowest height mode is 53hz, which 7" deep clouds would help with if spaced off the ceiling by at least 7". Again you'd ideally go with deepr clouds to get more 53hz absorption, but they just get too big and heavy to be practical past 7" deep. These would help a bit at 53hz though, and would be great for higher harmonic height modes, plus the loud / mid and high frequency reflections off the ceiling.

Hope the above and attached are of help as a starting point anyway - I've no idea how far you want to go with this / how good the room needs to sound / what your budget is. The plans as they are would deliver a fantastic sounding room, but you could get very worthwhile improvements with less. So it's not all of nothing by any means. The corner traps are one area that you ideally don't want to compromise on, as you don't want to have to upgrade these. But for reflection point panels you can get away with standard 2ft x 4ft x 5" panels. Wouldn't be as good as the taller / thicker panels specified in the plans, but certainly 100 times better than bare wall!"
 
Oh, pictures are worth a thousand words!

You are going to have a very unbalanced rear wall due to having a big square trap in one corner and nothing in the other (because of the door, I assume) and the exposed glass windows where the two rear wall traps are.
 
Oh, pictures are worth a thousand words!

You are going to have a very unbalanced rear wall due to having a big square trap in one corner and nothing in the other (because of the door, I assume) and the exposed glass windows where the two rear wall traps are.
I have the same problem, but felt that trapping 3 corners was better than 2, since it will at least mitigate some of that bass build-up. I don't sit in that corner to mix or record - doing most of the work where the clouds and side panels are going to be effective. And, in my small space, recording is generally done with relatively close micing, so the room's problems are largely not present. (Lately I've been trying some single mic stuff at different distances - the room rears its ugly head pretty quickly...)

It's rare in a room in a house, i.e., that's been repurposed and not build for audio, to not have a door in a corner, and small(er) bedrooms have windows placed "wherever" and a closet door (in the states, anyway), too.

I've got a fair amount of "stuff" on my back wall, and can open the door much of the time for mixing to see if it makes a difference. And, there's a couple gobos I could move around if I felt it was necessary, but I never have.
 
Back
Top