theory question

Here is an early demo of one run through the Intro-Verse-Bridge-Chorus-Middle (no vox)...

http://www.box.net/shared/yhkm36is7x

...and a crude, early demo of the chorus with vox (for the melody)...

http://www.box.net/shared/rg98c8lc7x

Okay, so now I've listened to the instrumental (no vox) version.

My initial observations are:

1 This follows the general musical signature you've established for yourself: a very creamy, smooth backing.

2 I notice, though, that the kit is more dominant in this mix, which I like. The rhythm is constant. How easy is it for you to add variations? Maybe some fills, or cymabl changes . . . going to an offbeat ride, for example?

3 There are some opportunities for adding textural variations. For example, that consistent faster strumming going through the whole thing . . . maybe in the verse you could give that rest . . . maybe even just one chord per bar . . . to give a contrasting feel between verse and other bits.
 
Yes, all this talk about chords is clever stuff, I don't deny it! :D

Even us primitives manage the odd minor chord!

Only sparsely. mind... ;)
 
Yes, all this talk about chords is clever stuff, I don't deny it! :D

C'mon Frankie.... try a little chunk of this delicious theory..... you know you'd really like to .... :p

And the girls just love a guy who can resolve to the root with confidence... (obscure Aussie joke...:rolleyes: )


OK, back to the music.


Hi Joseph,

The first point to make is that I'm most definitely not a music theory guru - I'm just a player who believes in the usefulness of the knowledge, and is on the way to learning as much as I can. So take any details with a pinch of salt, and no guarantees. :)

The first thing that struck me was that without any information about the melody or the rhythm I couldn't really tell much about the song. Hundreds of different songs can (and do) use the same progressions. The difference is in what you do with them, including how your harmonies work. When I played it through it sounded nothing like your version when I eventually heard it. :cool:

The second thing was that everything seemed to keep ending on D chords, which is rather unusual (as Gecko pointed out). You said that the song was in G, but what do you understand by that?

When I first looked at theory I thought that it might mean that the melody used just notes from the GMajor scale, and the chords were those built from that scale.- i.e G Am Bm C D etc. But that's not really so, as a quick look through a few songbooks soon proves. It's a starting point, but it's certainly not a fence.


The true definition of a key is along the lines of "The quality of a musical passage or composition that causes it to be sensed as gravitating towards a particular note, called the key note or the tonic". (Grove Dictionary of Music). You also see talk of "tonal centres". All it means is that if you use a particular key then the name note (and by extension the main associated chord) exerts a strong influence. You can accept that influence and use it, or you can deliberately resist it to create more tension. You can even change key in the middle of a piece.

So, if that's in GMajor, then it would be trying to pull towards that G, including trying to end on it. A quick flick through one of my songbooks (100 popular songs type of thing) shows page after page of well known hits following that path - ending on the same note as the key signature (i.e. the tonic). It's not in any way compulsory or necessary, but it's VERY common.


Dozens of songs in G in the book, ending on a G, but also one or two songs that appeared to be 'in G' - ( i.e. the staff showed only one sharp, F# ) - actually ended on an E however. Why E? Well, one possible reason is every Major key has what's called a "relative minor" - which is a minor key that uses exactly the same notes in its scale. Count along any Major scale and it's the 6th note. So for C it's relative minor is Am, and for G it's Em. The same chords can be built from the scale but the difference is in how they perfom when you use them around a different 'centre'. The I, IV, V progression will therefore also use different chords (from the same overall set) when it's in GMajor than it would in Em, which obviously sounds totally different. So a song that looks like it's 'in G' but that ends on an E might well actually be in Eminor. The way to tell is presumably to look and see how it's structured (and of course what it actually sounds like! :D)


Just to further confuse things, plenty of chords show up in several keys. For example, there's only one note difference between the key of G (which has an F#) and the key of D (which has an F# plus a C#). So some of the commonly used basic chords used in G and D will be the same. Depending on the direction you take the music in, just looking at chords can be quite misleading, especially as there's nothing wrong with using chords that don't belong to the set of 'usual suspects' or doing things like using a minor where you might 'expect' a Major - or even both together in the same song. What theory does is give you some great hints on how to handle all that to achieve the effects you want.


But can't you get there by just trying lots and lots of options, until you find one you like, and building up a bank of 'ear theory' instead of 'book theory'????


Well..... I certainly hope so... because I do both... I just think that theory saves me time, and also opens up possibilities that I probably would never have stumbled on. Works for me. :)

What I am starting to get out of it (at pretty primitive level still) includes suggestions about likely chord substitutions to take the song away from the usual paths, and information about building interesting harmonies under the melody (or the other way around). I tend to experiment first - 'by ear' if you like, and then when I get tired of working through dozens of possible chords I check out the 'theory' - which is basically (as VHS said) just a collection of advice about what many thousands of other previous musicians have found to work. It seems especially useful for those times when I've tried something fairly randomly and it's nearly there but still clunks. Changing a note or two in a chord, can make all the difference. Theory can help identify which ones to change, what to use instead, or simply what to add.


Cheers,

Chris
 
Some possibilities for different chords to use for a song in the key of G would be A (or A7), B (or B7), F, or Eb.

These are all non-diatonic chords, which means they don't normally appear in the key---i.e., they have at least one that's not found in a G major scale.

A and B are called secondary dominants. These normally want to resolve up a 4th (or down a 5th) to the next chord. In theory, A or A7 would normally resolve to D, but in practical pop music, it just as often resolves to the IV chord, which is C.

B or B7 would normally want to resolve up a 4th to Em, but it also often moves to the IV (C), which has a gospel sound to it.

F and Eb are called borrowed chords, because they're temporarily "borrowed" from the parallel mode of G minor. F is the bVII chord, and Eb is the bVI chord.

The bVII chord is used in classic rock ad nauseum, and the bVI chord would be used by the Beatles a lot, along with another similar borrowed chord, the minor iv (in this case, Cm).

Anyway, try these sounds out. You'll probably recognize them in songs you know!

Good luck! :)
 
i don't know if anyone has said this yet... as i did not read all 3423523 posts. but do what sounds good to you.

I say screw theory when writing, but that's just my approach
 
i don't know if anyone has said this yet... as i did not read all 3423523 posts. but do what sounds good to you.

I say screw theory when writing, but that's just my approach

That's certainly another option that works well! :)

Although, I don't think it's employed nearly as often as many people think. What I mean by that is, even players that don't know a lick of theory are still aware of many devices and use them all the time; they might not know what they're called, but they're certainly aware of the sound, which is the most imporant thing.

If you analze the songs of Kobain, for example, you'll find that he made use of the same types of progressions in many songs (in different keys mind you, but the same progressions).
 
The first point to make is that I'm most definitely not a music theory guru - I'm just a player who believes in the usefulness of the knowledge, and is on the way to learning as much as I can. So take any details with a pinch of salt, and no guarantees. :)

The first thing that struck me was that without any information about the melody or the rhythm I couldn't really tell much about the song. Hundreds of different songs can (and do) use the same progressions. The difference is in what you do with them, including how your harmonies work. When I played it through it sounded nothing like your version when I eventually heard it. :cool:

The second thing was that everything seemed to keep ending on D chords, which is rather unusual (as Gecko pointed out). You said that the song was in G, but what do you understand by that?

When I first looked at theory I thought that it might mean that the melody used just notes from the GMajor scale, and the chords were those built from that scale.- i.e G Am Bm C D etc. But that's not really so, as a quick look through a few songbooks soon proves. It's a starting point, but it's certainly not a fence.

The true definition of a key is along the lines of "The quality of a musical passage or composition that causes it to be sensed as gravitating towards a particular note, called the key note or the tonic". (Grove Dictionary of Music). You also see talk of "tonal centres". All it means is that if you use a particular key then the name note (and by extension the main associated chord) exerts a strong influence. You can accept that influence and use it, or you can deliberately resist it to create more tension. You can even change key in the middle of a piece.

So, if that's in GMajor, then it would be trying to pull towards that G, including trying to end on it. A quick flick through one of my songbooks (100 popular songs type of thing) shows page after page of well known hits following that path - ending on the same note as the key signature (i.e. the tonic). It's not in any way compulsory or necessary, but it's VERY common.

Dozens of songs in G in the book, ending on a G, but also one or two songs that appeared to be 'in G' - ( i.e. the staff showed only one sharp, F# ) - actually ended on an E however. Why E? Well, one possible reason is every Major key has what's called a "relative minor" - which is a minor key that uses exactly the same notes in its scale. Count along any Major scale and it's the 6th note. So for C it's relative minor is Am, and for G it's Em. The same chords can be built from the scale but the difference is in how they perfom when you use them around a different 'centre'. The I, IV, V progression will therefore also use different chords (from the same overall set) when it's in GMajor than it would in Em, which obviously sounds totally different. So a song that looks like it's 'in G' but that ends on an E might well actually be in Eminor. The way to tell is presumably to look and see how it's structured (and of course what it actually sounds like! :D)

Just to further confuse things, plenty of chords show up in several keys. For example, there's only one note difference between the key of G (which has an F#) and the key of D (which has an F# plus a C#). So some of the commonly used basic chords used in G and D will be the same. Depending on the direction you take the music in, just looking at chords can be quite misleading, especially as there's nothing wrong with using chords that don't belong to the set of 'usual suspects' or doing things like using a minor where you might 'expect' a Major - or even both together in the same song. What theory does is give you some great hints on how to handle all that to achieve the effects you want.

But can't you get there by just trying lots and lots of options, until you find one you like, and building up a bank of 'ear theory' instead of 'book theory'????

Well..... I certainly hope so... because I do both... I just think that theory saves me time, and also opens up possibilities that I probably would never have stumbled on. Works for me. :)

What I am starting to get out of it (at pretty primitive level still) includes suggestions about likely chord substitutions to take the song away from the usual paths, and information about building interesting harmonies under the melody (or the other way around). I tend to experiment first - 'by ear' if you like, and then when I get tired of working through dozens of possible chords I check out the 'theory' - which is basically (as VHS said) just a collection of advice about what many thousands of other previous musicians have found to work. It seems especially useful for those times when I've tried something fairly randomly and it's nearly there but still clunks. Changing a note or two in a chord, can make all the difference. Theory can help identify which ones to change, what to use instead, or simply what to add.


Thanks for a great post, Chris. You bring up many interesting points, especially about playing/writing by ear until you reach a dead end, which supports what Dave, Gecko, and others have stated about having more tools in one's arsenal to make his hobby better and more enjoyable.

Regarding the 'key' argument, I will defer to your knowledge. My knowledge of music theory is very low.

The program I use to hammer out my demos says that I am using chords in the key of G at 100 bpm, but it also allows for chords in other keys as well as variations (sustained, majors, 7ths, etc.) Having said that, I realize, of course, that chords can reside in multiple keys. All of that to say, you're probably right, Chris, and it could be in another key. :)

Here's a quick screenshot of the chorus section...

http://www.box.net/shared/3tklxjsnxy

Cheers,
Joseph
 
good point! What I mean is , i don't believe in trying to stay to conventional structures, I think it's annoying that some believe a song should be structured a certain way... gah it's hard to explain. If i'm not careful i'll start talking about aesthetics and what is art just like my philosophy class.
 
good point! What I mean is , i don't believe in trying to stay to conventional structures, I think it's annoying that some believe a song should be structured a certain way... gah it's hard to explain. If i'm not careful i'll start talking about aesthetics and what is art just like my philosophy class.

I agree; I think you should write what sounds good to you. "Knowing theory" really just boils down to the difference between being able to tell someone "the chords are I - vi - II - IV" or having to grab your guitar or sit at the piano and play them. The ear is by far the most important tool in a songwriter's arsenal, IMHO.

The Beatles are always the best example when someone says that "not knowing theory" will severely limit your compositional ability. They couldn't read or write music, much less tell you what the subdominant chord in the key of Bb is, but they understood the language of music and how it works by listening, absorbing, and assimilating it in their own way. They may have not been able to tell you they were using a ii-V of IV in the bridge of "I Wanna Hold Your Hand," but they knew the sound (which is much more important) and had mastered the use of it; this is evident by the fact that they used the same device in other songs from that time, including "From Me to You."
 
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Ah, some men after my own heart (at last!) :p

I have no problem at all with theory or any kind of musical notation. But I am very wary when "theory" tells me what the next chord ought to be...

Whoa! I'm the driver! I'll have a dischord if I want one! :D
 
good point! What I mean is , i don't believe in trying to stay to conventional structures, I think it's annoying that some believe a song should be structured a certain way...

But if you don't know any theory at all, how would you know if your staying in "conventional structures" or not? It's very common for novices with very little knowledge to repeat the same simple structures over and over, and not even know it.

The whole idea of Theory (and Theory enthusiasts) as some kind of bossy teacher that tells you what you MUST do is really a bit of a furphy. No doubt there are some theory gurus who like to use their knowledge to show off or put others down - just as there are probably fast shredders who use their ability that way - but in my experience it's not the norm.

I think that this "I won't let Theory dictate to ME!" attitude is what is called a "straw man" - which in debating means that you manufacture a phony target, knock it down, and then hope to be cheered for your victory. It's basically a con job. Fine if you're trying to con somebody else, but kind of silly if you're only conning yourself...:confused:

So, people who don't know any theory often seem to have this rather oddly aggressive attitude towards it, and find faults that really aren't there, unless you put them there yourself. I can fix many things on my cars simply by grabbing my toolbox and getting stuck in (the equivalent of playing 'by ear' - based on years of experience) but if I'm unsure about the next step I'm only too happy to read the manual. I know enough 'mechanical theory' to understand manuals, and they seem like a very useful thing - not some sort of bossy ogre.

Same with music. I find that theory doesn't dictate to me at all - quite the reverse - it informs and assists me. It's NOT an either/or situation. My main tools are my ears and my years of listening experience. The theory is the icing on the cake, the tuning equipment that helps me make that motor run even better...let's me fine tune the suspension for a particular track.... and so on..:)

Maybe we should start some basic theory threads and work through it cooperatively? For a start, most of the "I don't need theory" brigade would find that they already know plenty of basic theory (what tuning is and how to do it, what a chord progression is, and so on....)

Cheers,

Chris
 
But if you don't know any theory at all, how would you know if your staying in "conventional structures" or not? It's very common for novices with very little knowledge to repeat the same simple structures over and over, and not even know it.

The whole idea of Theory (and Theory enthusiasts) as some kind of bossy teacher that tells you what you MUST do is really a bit of a furphy. No doubt there are some theory gurus who like to use their knowledge to show off or put others down - just as there are probably fast shredders who use their ability that way - but in my experience it's not the norm.

I think that this "I won't let Theory dictate to ME!" attitude is what is called a "straw man" - which in debating means that you manufacture a phony target, knock it down, and then hope to be cheered for your victory. It's basically a con job. Fine if you're trying to con somebody else, but kind of silly if you're only conning yourself...:confused:

So, people who don't know any theory often seem to have this rather oddly aggressive attitude towards it, and find faults that really aren't there, unless you put them there yourself. I can fix many things on my cars simply by grabbing my toolbox and getting stuck in (the equivalent of playing 'by ear' - based on years of experience) but if I'm unsure about the next step I'm only too happy to read the manual. I know enough 'mechanical theory' to understand manuals, and they seem like a very useful thing - not some sort of bossy ogre.

Same with music. I find that theory doesn't dictate to me at all - quite the reverse - it informs and assists me. It's NOT an either/or situation. My main tools are my ears and my years of listening experience. The theory is the icing on the cake, the tuning equipment that helps me make that motor run even better...let's me fine tune the suspension for a particular track.... and so on..:)

Maybe we should start some basic theory threads and work through it cooperatively? For a start, most of the "I don't need theory" brigade would find that they already know plenty of basic theory (what tuning is and how to do it, what a chord progression is, and so on....)

Cheers,

Chris

You made some great points, Chris. The more knowledge one has, the better.

Cheers,
Joseph
 
I am not saying, "ear good, theory bad".

What I am saying (or trying to say) is that when you are songwriting, and if you are trying to produce something out of the ordinary, you might want to be just a little bit wary of grabbing your theory book too often when you get stuck. It can lead you down a "bland" alley; one where everyone else goes and has gone before. I think novices often have a "eureka period" when they first grab a theory book.

Yes, be aware that there are tried and trusted options theoretically of what chords you can typically use when and where, sure of course, that's part of the learning curve. I've certainly poured over guitar books experimenting with new chords and progressions, or rather, that were new to me. Most of that hasn't helped me as a songwriter though, in my opinion.

What (I think) has helped me most is stripping the work right back just to a single note melody and forgetting about chord backings altogether until I have a well established and strong melody line. Sometimes trying to back a melody with chords too early on leads the melody down certain "tried and trusted, well-trodden ways" (as per the text book, even.. ;-)

Also, quite often when you do have a strong melody a simple set of chords ends up working best as a backing. You don't want to go putting a lot of fancy chords in just because you can. That is another mistake novices often make.

I am not saying don't read a theory book. I'm saying use any "tool" with care lest you end up with a cliche.

And don't forget that... "Talking about music is like like dancing about architecture..." Frank Zappa

Fx
 
The Beatles are always the best example when someone says that "not knowing theory" will severely limit your compositional ability.

:D

See, there's the "straw man". Some nasty pedant who tells you that you have to do it their way or you'll never be any good... :rolleyes: I expect they do exist somewhere, but the theory enthusiasts that I know don't say that at all. They're all well aware of the benefits of judging things by ear - they even do 'ear training' to improve their skills in that department. What they do say is that more knowledge is useful.


I think it's annoying that some believe a song should be structured a certain way...

You'd prefer completely random noise?? Decent theory shows you multiple structural choices not just one path. And I don't see it demanding that I take any of them either. To me it seems more like a feast of possibilities than a single dry biscuit forced on you by some imaginary jailer.

But I am very wary when "theory" tells me what the next chord ought to be...


It doesn't tell me what it must be. Unless you have a very half-baked notion of what theory is and does. What the theory that I know (which is pretty basic at this stage, let me add) tells me is that other people have discovered I can use this chord next OR this, this this, this this and this one (and on into the distance) depending on what effect you're trying to achieve. Furthermore, it puts no limits on what ELSE I might like to try...:)

One last try: ;)

Some people can't read this sentence. They can't read words. Mostly they can still talk though.

However, the vast majority of them understand the usefulness of reading. Few people will seriously tell you that if they learn to read they'll have to spent the rest of their life reading Shakespeare and Goethe. They know that they can use it just to read comics or the instructions for video games if they choose.

So I can read music. It didn't take long (what takes the time is learning to read fast). I could read Beethoven symphonies all day, but I actually use it to pick up songbooks and more or less instantly play the melody line or the chords. Very useful. I'm also training my ear to do that by listening to songs, but it's a much slower task. I want both.

"Knowledge is Power" they say.... and it is. Musical Knowledge is Musical Power. It's not a strait jacket. Really.... :)



Cheers,

Chris
 
2 I notice, though, that the kit is more dominant in this mix, which I like. The rhythm is constant. How easy is it for you to add variations? Maybe some fills, or cymabl changes . . . going to an offbeat ride, for example?

Good point, GZ. I do plan to alter the drum sequencing and some of the other instrumentation in a "final version" someday. I have been playing around with an open source program called Drum Track for about a year. I'm a little better at drafting drumbeats, but the my efforts are not good enough to include in my own songs yet, plus it seems to take me a very long time just to get one measure worked out. I'm getting faster though.

For the demo, I'm just using JamStudio's product. I may outsource the drums someday to a real drummer, if I can get down a good representation of what I want first.

3 There are some opportunities for adding textural variations. For example, that consistent faster strumming going through the whole thing . . . maybe in the verse you could give that rest . . . maybe even just one chord per bar . . . to give a contrasting feel between verse and other bits.

Another good point. The instrumentation on the verses and the middle will change in the next demo when the vox are added.

Thanks for the good advice, as always.

Cheers,
Joseph
 
Chris, my comment was fairly tongue in cheek... ... hence the: :D thereafter...

I think you are missing the point I am trying to make or maybe you just disagree with it. Anyway, I have extrapolated the point further in my last post above. I hope it helps!

If you are finding your theory books to be "(the) feast of options" you describe then that is clearly a benefit to you and you are using the "tools" to your advantage and hopefully avoiding those cliches. That's my only and ultimate point really, avoidance of cliche.

Best of luck!

Fx
 
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Here's a quick screenshot of the chorus section...

http://www.box.net/shared/3tklxjsnxy

Cheers,
Joseph

Thanks for posting that Joseph. :) Now I can see what you're doing.

The program that you're using (Jamstudio was it?) lets you put some chords in and then plays back its own arrangement for you (much like Band in a Box, etc). It shows you the common chords found in a key, and then gives you a list of possible alternative chords to try. So far so good.

What it can't do is tell you much about what's actually going on there.

So if you switch across from G to D in that program, you'll see some of the same chords in the basic list that were also in the list for G. If you look in the alternative column, you'll then see the rest of the chords you used.

So you can build exactly the same song (i.e. chord progression) in the 'Key of D' screen as you did at the 'key of G' screen.

So which key is it in? G or D or both?? :confused: Well, as I said before, it depends on what else the music is doing.....

Sorry if that's not very enlightening.

Cheers,

Chris
 
...

When i first started trying to make melodies on my computer, after about 6 months or so (failing miserably, fo the most part...), I was just MISERABLE. I finally heard a couple of notes in my guitar melody I was fooling with, that, I don't know... really, really "RANG OUT", you know?

I liked to END a short phrase on one of those, you know? "Whaaaaaa........." (you know how cool an electric guitar sound can be, eh? LMAO)

Not all my notes did, though... MAN, after 6 months of trial and error, I knew I liked SOMEthing there, and just started "fidgeting" with ALL the notes in that thing. One up her, one down there, nothing was off the table.

couple hours later, my ears wer seriously fatigued... lol... and I was happy that I had all the "really cool notes", and everything really "rang out" like I wanted it to out of my computer speakers.

After 20 years of listening to progressive metal off and on, what had I done? A couple weeks later on I figured out what a scale was for, and I went back and listened to that little piece... I counted tham all up, all I had done was constructed the Pentatonic minor scale by ear... LMAO

I vaguely knew what scales were, but somehow it had escaped me to pick notes only FROM a scale. (laugh all you want, I think its funny too... how was I to know?) Boy, did having some plan of attack leaave me more time to be creative in other ways... whats a chord prog?.. wikipedia was my cold but fast friend, I tell you....

Was I falling into a trap? getting cliche? sure... I beat the %$#@ out of I IV V chord progressions, and still do, lmao... how do I make a composition just abruptly STOP, slow down, change gears, and be "nakedly beautiful somehow", then plow right BACK into the chargng melody? Relative keys I am starting to use now...

Its a combination of BOTH ears and creativity... mixed with a healthy dose of theory that's been my ticket to keep moving forward... *shrugs* I am slowly building a bag of tricks. Just when I think I am stuck in a new cliche... at least its a BETTER cliche than I was on a year ago, LMAO... and some bit of theory I figure out takes me up a tiny notch again.

I dont think of theory as "telling me which chord to use next", mainly bcause I dont strum chords until I find a pattern I like, then set about building a song over that... I make a piano note melody first... make it a counterpoint melody... then I start to "voice it" thru 145 chords, to hear how it moves around... and i go from there, then start thinking about weaving harmony lines thru it in a "harmonic canon" fashion...

as a matter of fact, over 95% of my music dosn't really have any chords, not the way a guitarist thinks of them... two (or 3 or 4...) DIFFERENT note melodic lines, just HAPPEN to form partial chords, as they pass each other at different times...

I swear by th sacred balls of the christ, that "counterpoint" is the best kept secret in all of music. The hysterical thing is, its right out in the open, no one is "guarding it" or anything... just no one cares...

you can HEAR it though... in everything from Bach to bluegrass...

I guess its 6 of one, and a half dozen of the other... you can start by ear then add some theory... or you can start by "theory" and be amazed as your ear builds right along with your theory...

the only reason I tout theory so much though... is that the theory crowd still uses their ear... the EAR crowd though, thinks theory will somehow "poison" them...

eh? what manner of...?

I dunno... the guy who mentiond engine repair? I read manuals, that gave me a good grounding, now I dont depend on a manual... I understand the systems... but i see guys sit around all night drinking beer, arguing whats wrong with "bobs mystery truck problem for 3 months now..." and 99 times out of a hundred?

you can get the manual out, go to the binary tree... and start crossing stuff out as you eliminate it. Now, the "I hate manuals" crowd says "AH! that stupid manual says its one of 16 different things! That manual dont teach you nothin!"

*rolls eyes"

You can start crossing many of them out, by looking at what ISNT wrong with it, too... then, I am left with like 2 or 3 choices, and simple tests confirm which one it is.

you dont even have to buy books anymore! you can read it all on the internet! for free! you'll still have your precious ear! you'll be unstoppable then! (waving semaphore flags to make a point)
 
One thing I have noticed about you theory guys, you don't half write long posts about it!

WHO are you trying to convince? ;)

Us morons, we just say, "theory sucks!" :D
 
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