Song structuring

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DeathKnell

New member
Hey there..

I'm curious if any of you's know of any good online resources or courses on the subject of song structuring.

My current problem is that I manage to make a whole heap of crap but can never put it into order as I'm basically clueless on the fundamentals of structuring songs. (how to make a smooth change from verse to chorus etc.)

I'd take a course in real life, but they always go far too slow for my likings.

thanks :o
 
online?

Hi,

Not aware of anything online. My first thoughts are that you either have the knack or you don't.

But, that's probably not totally true. I could take your head full of ideas and help you, but not sure how anybody could give you a set of rules that would work, save for the basics that have been working in the industry for decades.

You start by learning how to analyze what you love in other people's music, and all that analysis over the years will become a part of your character.

Next, depending upon what you are personally aiming for, follow "that".

Examples:

1) Pop music? Simple. Verse, verse, chorus, verse, chorus.

2) Progressive AOR? Lots of cool ideas that keep the groove going and have great virtuoso work, too.

3) Country? Most important is lyrics and then pretty basic sound structure.

General rules, all of them. <wink>
 
I got a lot of value out of a book called "How To Write Songs on Guitar" by Rikkie Rooksby. He has a great writing style, and illustrates everything with examples from songs we all know. He spends a lot of time on exactly the area you asked about. Very easy to get hold of. The advantage of a book is that you can take it at your own pace and sit down with it with a guitar / keyboard whatever.

Our own friend Aaron Cheney has also produced a book, which I bet is good, and also Tunesmith by Jimmy Webb gets a lot of good mentions here (although personally I can't bear to read it).
 
I guess the best bet is writing with someone else, I usually do with a friend but they've moved oversea's so it's more than awkward (1 in a billion person capable of deciphering my crap)

I guess ultimately my problem is toning down the stuff i make and simplifying it to a point where it sounds like it has some structure.

I am a firm believer in abandoning rules when it comes to music, the only problem is I tend to end up with a 'soundtrack' type effect that would probably suit a movie.. when i'm in actuality trying to write just a normal pop/rock song.

Could always sell my soul, find a producer and market wholely off angsty teen imagery in the worst case scenario though ;)
 
Your talking about a problem we all have. I mostly have more idea's than I can possibly put into one song. I used to write song with lots of breaks and bridges, modulate a couple of times to end up somewhere in the desert not knowing where this all began. This resulted in very unstructured song with no beginning and no end.
For me it seems to work best to just write a couple of verses and corus and put them in a basic logical order. I try to only use breaks and bridges when I really have to. That is when some part of the lyrics demand a different musical setting. Then I take just one or two chords that relate to the key of the song and repeat them a couple of times. I try not to write "songs within songs". If I get good new idea's I try to just make new songs of them.
I guess thuis a matter of taste too. I personally prefer songs to be simple with a clear begin-middle-end structure in which lyrics are prominent. If you like more instrumental music you can take it anywhere you want.
To me the basics allways seem to work.
 
Well for me I have to try to limit myself to something no longer then 4min songs, other wise it turns into some stuff like pink floyd 15 20 min songs. LOL
And as far as formatting well everyone does it diffrent I don't believe there is a standard format for song writing. If it sounds good and can go along with the beat your using then it works.
 
I really think the Rikkie Rooksby book is laid out very well. I think I've read everything Sheila Davis has out (her books are like an industry standard) but I actually enjoyed the Rooksby book more.

Deathkneel, you mention you believe in breaking the rules, yet your post suggests you don't yet understand the rules.

While I agree there are times when breaking the rules can work well, I do think a "good writer" should indeed learn the rules and then be able to make an informed decision as to when to break them.

You mention a "course in real life" takes longer than you like. However, good things sometimes take time. No one becomes a good musician without putting in time on some type of studies (formal or informal) - it stands to reason it also takes a committment of time to become a good writer.
 
mikeh said:
You mention a "course in real life" takes longer than you like. However, good things sometimes take time. No one becomes a good musician without putting in time on some type of studies (formal or informal) - it stands to reason it also takes a committment of time to become a good writer.
Click to expand...

my only real gripe with those courses is the slow pace they go.. If I want to do somthing, I want to do it right away and I want to do a lot of it :(

I'll try checkout those books you mentioned, thanks
 
I typically let the lyrics dictate the structure of the song, unless I'm specifically writing it for a pop thing. I guess that doesn't really work if you're doing instrumental stuff, or if your lyrics don't have a logical flow to them.

When I do instrumental stuff, the thing that really helps me is to think of a storyline for the song. Think about a book or a movie you know pretty well, and think about how the action flows. Every story essentially builds to a point of tension and then the tension is resolved. Same thing with music.

My philosophy about the "Rules" is not to abandon them so much as to play off of them. For example, if you know people will expect a chorus after the bridge, put another verse there, or a solo or something. To me, that's more interesting than a song that just wanders from section to section without any real definition. You take something people know and understand and alter it a bit to mess with their expectations.
 
Breaking or stretching the rules is fine, but you first have to know the rules. Then practice acually using the rules, then stretching or breaking them where it makes sense, not just out of ignorance of them.

That would be the same as breaking the rules of sentance structure or spelling and claiming that the rules are to be broken because I'm being creative. Meanwhile, the reader(listener) is confused, bored, or moves on to something that can be understood. I can break the rules of sentance structure too, i can, do what i want, i can i can i can i can i can i really can darnit, aint i cool?????? if I keep going like this you will skip what i am typing and move on b/c it's not within the understandable parameters of the language.

Songwriting is the same way, it has parameters, but for many arteests who believe themselves to be so creative as to be beyond the limits of any rules, decide to not even bother to learn the rules, and wonder why their wonderful work of art isn't being understood or accepted, "Gee, isn't the public sooo stupid?" So that is the only danger of the 'rule' thing. I've pontificated sufficiently for my point, now I shall retire to lurk mode. Rebel rebel fu<k the rules.

I've worked on the following 3 books that are really helpful in learning the BASICS and then you go break them for empasis and whatever else....

"Successful Lyric Writing" Sheila Davis
"The Craft of Lyric Writing" Sheila Davis
"The Songwriters Idea Book" Sheila Davis

Is anyone familiar with these?
 
It sounds to me that your writing style has alot of energy. I think one of the first things you need to do is focus that energy no matter what direction you take. The one thing you can not avoid , based on my experience, is that everything has a learning curve.

I think a good starting place is with lyrics. First establish your voice. Second have a story to tell that progresses in emotion and information. Third punctuate the story or emotion with a hook, chorus, or bridge. Fourth resolve or end. What form you use may not be as important (imho) as the voice and story convey a completed thought or emotion that builds.

I hope this will help you start to sort out some of your work into individual projects. If you can still search the archives on this site there are some other threads that could have online articles you can check out.

Ozlee :cool:
 
It's been my experience to let the song dictate the structure.
Then if it needs some tweaking, I go to work on it.

Some songs need a chours between the first and second verse.
Some songs can get by with no bridge.

Very simple when you think of it.
 
junplugged said:
"Successful Lyric Writing" Sheila Davis
"The Craft of Lyric Writing" Sheila Davis
"The Songwriters Idea Book" Sheila Davis

Is anyone familiar with these?
Click to expand...

Interested....but not willing to pay some $20 for it. Can I get it somewhere for free???
 
You don't need to follow any rules when structuring music.

Artists paint what they feel and the same should go for songwriting.

The problem lies when you decide to make the step into commercializing your songs. You now need to structure your song to loosely resemble one of only a few templates if you are recording the song with radio play or catchyness in mind, (regardless of genre).

The most common radio template is intro, verse, pre-chorus, chorus, verse, pre-chorus, chorus, bridge, chorus x 2, outro.

That said, the song should naturally fall into place and take its own shape which may contradict this arrangement completely and still be a commercial success.

Like someone mentioned earlier, a great way to learn how to arrange for commercialization is to listen to the artists that influence you and carefully analyze their songs with respect to arrangement/structure.

HTH

Ryan
 
Hi DeathKnell,

You've asked a good question! In my limited experience, if you attempt to find a set of rules to follow completely in any song-writing venture, you run the risk of ending up with a lacklustre "song-by-numbers"...a carbon-copy of a song that has gone before. And that's not necessarily a bad thing - it may even be exactly what you want.

I agree with the people that have suggested that knowing the rules before you break them is a good idea. I would express that idea by saying that arming yourself with the rules opens up the possibility of 'new rules' for you.

A simple google search on song writing will land you with some decent hits. For example, here are two sites with some elementary principles of song-writing and useful tips and ideas to try out: http://www.easy-song-writing.com and http://www.writingsongs.com/

If you can get a hold of this book http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/DummiesTitle/productCd-0764554042.html you will also find a succinct summary of most genres of song-writing today.

Charlie Parker said, "Music is your own experience, your own thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn. They teach you there's a boundary line to music. But, man, there's no boundary line to art."

Igor Stravinsky thought that "A good composer does not imitate; he steals."

Samuel Butler (1612-80) supposed that "Life is like music, it must be composed by ear, feeling and instinct, not by rule. Nevertheless one had better know the rules, for they sometimes guide in doubtful cases, though not often."

But James Taylor advises "Keep your overhead down; avoid a major drug habit; play everyday, and take it in front of other people. They need to hear it, and you need them to hear it."

Happy writing!

AG :)
 
also a problem for me

Im guessing you have all the sounds from different instruments you want to use, if so you will need to take the time to structure it with everything in pieces(individual sounds/instruments/loops). The most comonly used song structuring software is cubase, A good thing to know is you need to have the sounds at different volumes, you may need to set correct pitches and check sounds templ(BPM/Speed). The eaiest way for me is to layer instruments one at a time and restructuring them until they sound good, it takes a while but needs to be done.
 
Don't like courses, books and rules?

Me neither! Though I've read plenty of books and know some rules..

Anyway, you can actually get to it very quickly indeed simply by LISTENING to songs. Listen to any twenty songs on a radio station you like...

If you still find structuring a song that hard, maybe it's not for you?

But if you do still want it.. then maybe you should change your opinion and go on a course, read a book, etc. and sweat it a bit?

Depends how much you want it!

As a very famous songwriter once said: "if you're big enough, come and get it!"

Good luck!!!

Fx :)
 
IMHO...the best tool is your radio or CD collection.

Sit down and listen to the songs you like, or songs that are similar to your style. Get a pad...when they sing a Verse write down A, when they sing a Chorus write down B, when they sing/play a bridge write down C.

Then start looking at the patterns. Find what works for the artists you enjoy and then begin working your songs into those patterns. I bet in no time, you'll find this occurs naturally and you'll not need help anymore.

My biggest hurdle is finishing songs...I have 800 ideas. *sigh*
 
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