Song registration (copyright)?

[YanKleber]

Good day everyone!

Here in Brasil we have a public organ where you can make the registration of your songs (the National Music School) and that charges $15 per title that is kind of a ripoff). Examining the Law some people have raised the affirmation that differently of what was supposed before you don't need to register your songs specifically THERE to have a proof of authorship.

Based on this assumption recently several sites popped offering online registration and supporting their service in a kind of digital certificate. Those sites charge like $2.50 per title and there are a LOT of people getting their service. There is one site that alone has over 100,000 registered songs.

Among a plethora of sites that don't transmit me enough trusting (including the one mentioned above) I found one that has a more serious aspect called 'avctoris' (avctoris.com) and that explains that they emit their certificate based on a Berna Convention called WIPO. They say a lot of more 'blah-blah-blah' but I am not the kind of dude used to get sold with BS.

Anyway, second them, they will emit what they claim to be an 'auto-sufficient' digital certificate containing things like a time stamp, a hash code SHA2, a digital signature and a QR code. By 'auto-sufficient' they ensure that keeping this digital certificate with me, if some day another person steal my song I can claim for my rights and use this certificate as a proof of authorship.

OK, everything seems to make sense but what puzzles me is that being a IT professional I know that ANYONE can generate a digital file containing a lot of stuff like codes and numbers and whatever and yet it doesn't mean anything legal. Fact is how could I ensure myself that this digital piece that they claim to be a valid document is really valid? I am an old timer and I grew up being said that legal stuff should be have a record in some kind of government official house. For instances, if you buy a piece of land you cannot generate a 'digital certificate' as a proof of ownership for that. I don't know how it works in other countries but here in Brasil you have to be in a place called 'cartory' where you will register all the documentation and will receive a public faith document for that. I am sure that in the rest of the world, with slight differences probably exist something similar to that.

From my point of view this digital document that confirms song authorship should be registered somewhere like a recognized institution.

I am not doubting about the honesty of these sites. My concern is that having my songs registered only in their servers, what will happen if in a year or two they decide to close the doors and turn off the lights and move to a completely different business? Then can just wipe their hard disks and then there will not a registration anywhere else but the stuff they sent to me. Then I can be involved on a legal fight and the judge in charge to ask for a proof that my document is legit and I won't have a way of do that. I hope you have understood my point?

My questions are:

1) Do you guys have heard about such kind of authorship registration through a digital certificate?
2) If yes, would you refer me an international organ/company respected and reliable where I could register my songs with a total peace of mind?

Thanks!

 

[mjbphotos]

Brazil is a lot different than the US, where we have a government-run copyright organization.

As has been discussed here before - do you really think your songs are so good that someone is going to steal them?

One thing you could check is any legal cases in your country where people claimed songs were stolen form them - what method of copyright had they used, did they win their suit, etc.

 

[YanKleber]

MJB, I do think that my songs are good enough to be stolen and that's why I want to register them. The traditional way is to register in the National School Music (government org) but as I said it is expensive specially when you have to register a lot of them at a time (in my case they are 16). Also, the National School Music requires that you send the music score.

Anyway, I was after some kind of online wel-known worldwide organization...

 

[rob aylestone]

Don't forget that all the systems in the world mean nothing unless a court forces them to pay. All the registration schemes in the world don't cut out the need for the legal people to make it happen. All these fancy schemes do is provide evidence that you did it first, that's pretty well it. You can embed all sorts of meta code in digital files, but clever people can strip it out, and insert their own, perhaps dated before yours!

In court the judge will expect you to prove you have the rights. This is where the old cassette in an envelope thing appeared. No real legal cleverness, just a way to prove the date - that's the critical bit. If you convince the judge, you win. Paying people, or not, isn't the point - creating good, robust and reliable evidence is! This is a requirement in every country with a court system.

 

[YanKleber]

Don't forget that all the systems in the world mean nothing unless a court forces them to pay. All the registration schemes in the world don't cut out the need for the legal people to make it happen. All these fancy schemes do is provide evidence that you did it first, that's pretty well it. You can embed all sorts of meta code in digital files, but clever people can strip it out, and insert their own, perhaps dated before yours!

In court the judge will expect you to prove you have the rights. This is where the old cassette in an envelope thing appeared. No real legal cleverness, just a way to prove the date - that's the critical bit. If you convince the judge, you win. Paying people, or not, isn't the point - creating good, robust and reliable evidence is! This is a requirement in every country with a court system.

I was exactly arguing it today with a guy that owns one of those registration schemes. I started asking him how could he ensure that his certificate would protect me and he started to blah-blah-blah about timestamps, qr codes, cryptography keys and all sort of BS. Then I told him that I could just pick the same things he mentioned in several sites that generates such stuff for free, pack it together and call it a certificate. Heck, why shouldn't I just start a new company and compete with him? Then he replied that it wasn't that simple and started to mention Berna this, Genebra that, the timestamp of observatory XYZ, and a lot more BS.

So, I told him OK and asked what was the organization (governmental or not) that supported the authenticity of his certificates. Then he answered me that he wasn't affiliated to any organization because he didn't need that since his certificates were 'auto-sufficient'. I stopped and "What?"

When he thought that he was in the top of the world I demolished his castle with it: my friend, there is not any more auto-sufficient certificate that the stuff you have in the tip of your fingers... your fingerprints. They are unique and cannot be easily faked. Even so they only have value if they are on police, FBI, Interpol, etc, files; otherwise you could fill a crime scene with your fingerprints that no one would be able to identify you. So how can you tell me that your certificate can validate something without having a copy stored in a regulatory organization?

After that the guy just said: "Well, I can't say anything to refute this argument. The only thing I will tell you is that if you are not confident on register your songs with my company, please don't do it."



For me it was the same thing as he admits that he runs nothing else than a scam.

The worse part is that there is thousands of people giving money for those guys here in Brasil. I could find at least 5 or 6 different sites offering this 'service' and with already thousands of songs 'registered' on them.



Anyway, after to take this conclusion, I decided to spend a bit more money and register my songs in the proper place that is the "National School of Music" a Brazilian government organ that keep records and has a public faith. Brazilian government has copyright agreement with mostly of countries so I should be OK. And although I know that it is not a perfect protection, it is still something. After all it is not because that exist car thieves that can open any lock that I will leave the key in the ignition, right?