Music Theory for Songwriting

themdla

themdla

New member
So i've been trying to write songs for years and it's been a struggle.

I've met many people who were good writers and have never studied theory and many who have.

One of the things i've noticed is that i tend to see the writing from the theory crowd as more diverse and the guys who really have a grasp of it seem comfortable in almost any musical situation.

i'd like that freedom!!!

i've been trying to pickup some theory and work it into my writing but i still ain't gettin' it.

so...

are any of you guys are using theory for your writing?
how did you learn it?
how do you use it when writing/composing?

thanx
 
I learned theory starting with an old lady piano teacher (her daughter was the Romper Room lady in the Canadian version). Then I had music theory in school and university.

But the way I write is that an idea seems to come to me out of nowhere and then I mess with that, often while I'm away from my studio and instruments, and in composing my mind doesn't think in music theory terms.

What I think I hear from your question is that you want to learn the nuts and bolts of music. If you can get together with a teacher or even better a buddy that knows basic theory - in about 2 hours you could get the stuff about clefs, the note names etc... or you can find tons of stuff on line.

I played for several years before I had any theory knowledge... I still think that most of the best players really don't know what they're doing. There's too many blind musicians to think that music reading is a must-have. But that doesn't mean blind musicians don't know the nuts and bolts.

Most competent players who say they don't know theory mean they don't know the agreed upon names. To learn an instrument physics will make people learn things about time and pitch. Few people play solely by divine intervention. :)

By far the best way to learn the nuts and bolts is by transcribing songs. Nothing compares. That's really how I learned. I need to write charts, because I email them to players far away and they're pro's that want to read it and lay it down in 15 minutes, so without the charts it wouldn't happen.
 
I've found that the more theory I've learned the better writer I've become. I don't go out of my way to utilize theory - but if I want to develop a bridge or modulate, etc. - I find I can do it faster and more melodically since I have a better understanding our what chords nmake sense - or how I can weave the melody through chord changes.

At a minimum, I think a writer should understand the circle of 5ths/4ths, relative majors and minors and most scales/modes.
 
All you need to do is learn how to play by ear. Learn intervals. You don't need to memorize scales or any of that shit. If you can imagine it and then hum it, you can "write" it and play it.
 
Greg_L said:
All you need to do is learn how to play by ear. Learn intervals. You don't need to memorize scales or any of that shit. If you can imagine it and then hum it, you can "write" it and play it.
Click to expand...

+1

i agree with you about learning/hearing intervals and i can take notes/melodies/beats i hear in my head and play them.

most of the time i just hear too much melodically and (aka every note in the scale or relative scales) end up playing a bunch of stuff that is "in key" but not "choice". if that makes any sense. it almost all sounds good to me haha.

or to put it another way....

your playing some blues thing and i'm playing some alt-rock washy delay melody, or some dark sounding minor thing.... i'm kinda stuck on certain "sounds" or intervals in whatever song i'm playing despite the style presented.

although the above is a made up example it is similar to experiences i've had when writing. i just want to be more diverse and able to play the choice blues, alt-rock, death metal, etc.. tonalities whenever it's called for.

i figured if i understood better what was going on then i could produce more reliable results.
 
themdla said:
+1

i agree with you about learning/hearing intervals and i can take notes/melodies/beats i hear in my head and play them.

most of the time i just hear too much melodically and (aka every note in the scale or relative scales) end up playing a bunch of stuff that is "in key" but not "choice". if that makes any sense. it almost all sounds good to me haha.

or to put it another way....

your playing some blues thing and i'm playing some alt-rock washy delay melody, or some dark sounding minor thing.... i'm kinda stuck on certain "sounds" or intervals in whatever song i'm playing despite the style presented.

although the above is a made up example it is similar to experiences i've had when writing. i just want to be more diverse and able to play the choice blues, alt-rock, death metal, etc.. tonalities whenever it's called for.

i figured if i understood better what was going on then i could produce more reliable results.
Click to expand...

I get all that, but still, unless you're totally tone-deaf, you're gonna hear in your head how you want it to sound. Play that.
 
also... (and i'm sure this will be the answer)

greg do you recommend transcribing and learning songs you like to get better at playing by ear?

or is there another method?
 
themdla said:
also... (and i'm sure this will be the answer)

greg do you recommend transcribing and learning songs you like to get better at playing by ear?
Click to expand...
Not technically transcribing, no, but popping a CD into the player and playing along with it is fantastic for learning to play by ear. It also helps you to learn intervals. I didn't know it at the time, but when I was a teenager I learned intervals and playing by ear by playing along to my records with an old acoustic guitar and picking out the vocal melodies note by note, like playing a bass. I had no idea what notes I was playing, but I knew the sounds and how they relate to eachother. Now, I can hum a melody or riff in my head and pick up a guitar and play it on the spot.

or is there another method?
Click to expand...

I dunno. Just rock along with the stuff you like.
 
an example

recently i started writing with this chick and she has a melody line and lyrics for a song.

i've started writing ideas but all my ideas sound like a different song than the genre she is trying to write for. i can't hear anything in my head of what it should sound like.

so i went the theory approach and tried to figure out what notes she is singing to see if i could at least figure out the specific key but all the chords i've come up with so far is not really capturing the sound she's looking for.

and unfortunately i don't really know enough theory to figure out what would sound really "choice" under her melody line. so i'm a bit stuck :(
 
Hmmmm.
This one always ignites and inflames.
I often observe in the theory debate that actually, the two 'opposing' sides that develop really aren't on opposite sides of the bank. There really is no great distance between "hear it in your head, hum it, write it" and moving from point A to B to C in a more initially deliberate way. Knowing the theory does not guarantee good songs. Neither does it block creativity. Not consciously knowing the theory does not make you a creative genius whose imagination is unchainable. Nor does it make you a boring uneducated idiot.

When people talk of 'theory', what is actually meant ?

Let me just say for now, that theory develops out of practice. People found something worked and said 'if this follows that, these happen'.
Non theorists {in their own mind} and theorists alike can hit great writing peaks. And they can dry up and write boring crap, depending on genre, interest, stamina, belief, mental state, boredom, drug use, openness etc, etc.
Theory need not be a constraining cage and furthermore, the degrees of theory that different people know, well, differs. Some know loads, some know little. Often it's picked up as you go along, not necesarilly consciously.
 
themdla said:
an example

recently i started writing with this chick and she has a melody line and lyrics for a song.

i've started writing ideas but all my ideas sound like a different song than the genre she is trying to write for. i can't hear anything in my head of what it should sound like.

so i went the theory approach and tried to figure out what notes she is singing to see if i could at least figure out the specific key but all the chords i've come up with so far is not really capturing the sound she's looking for.

and unfortunately i don't really know enough theory to figure out what would sound really "choice" under her melody line. so i'm a bit stuck :(
Click to expand...

I've had that happen to me lots of times. I'll come up with a melody I like, but I gotta find the riff that fits it. I suppose theory would probably be helpful there. But there's always a workaround. I just look for the downbeat in the cadence of the melody and play the chord that fits, then build from there.

I'm not saying don't learn theory, but all the best stuff you hear was probably written more from the head than the theory charts. In that regard, I think theory is overrated.
 
grimtraveller said:
Hmmmm.
This one always ignites and inflames.
I often observe in the theory debate that actually, the two 'opposing' sides that develop really aren't on opposite sides of the bank. There really is no great distance between "hear it in your head, hum it, write it" and moving from point A to B to C in a more initially deliberate way. Knowing the theory does not guarantee good songs. Neither does it block creativity. Not consciously knowing the theory does not make you a creative genius whose imagination is unchainable. Nor does it make you a boring uneducated idiot.

When people talk of 'theory', what is actually meant ?

Let me just say for now, that theory develops out of practice. People found something worked and said 'if this follows that, these happen'.
Non theorists {in their own mind} and theorists alike can hit great writing peaks. And they can dry up and write boring crap, depending on genre, interest, stamina, belief, mental state, boredom, drug use, openness etc, etc.
Theory need not be a constraining cage and furthermore, the degrees of theory that different people know, well, differs. Some know loads, some know little. Often it's picked up as you go along, not necesarilly consciously.
Click to expand...

Man up and pick a side. :laughings:
 
Critics Opine {ii}

themdla said:
i've started writing ideas but all my ideas sound like a different song than the genre she is trying to write for. i can't hear anything in my head of what it should sound like.

so i went the theory approach and tried to figure out what notes she is singing to see if i could at least figure out the specific key but all the chords i've come up with so far is not really capturing the sound she's looking for.

and unfortunately i don't really know enough theory to figure out what would sound really "choice" under her melody line. so i'm a bit stuck :(
Click to expand...
If you don't mind me saying, this is an example of where theory is being a cage. There is a balance to be struck between knowing things that can work "theoretically" and feeling out what does work for particular song. Quite often people will tell me that something doesn't 'go'. And it's their training that says that because to me, it fits. I guess what I'm saying is that there's a difference between theory and rules. But when writing songs there's many approaches you can take. And if there is a 'rule', it's that the song comes from you. Not from theory. Theories, whether helpful or not do not write songs. It's a tool that can assist but that's about it. I know people that know everything theoretical ~ but they can't write songs. They interpret wonderfully though.

The other thing ~ it's good advice to listen to music and take it apart and maybe even play along. Ultimately however, you need to put all that aside and be you and find your 'voice'. Takes time. The hardest songs to write are possibly the first few. But you'll get into your stride and you get to a point where it's no longer difficult. Whether they're good original songs or not is anyone's guess and everyone's opinion but hey.
I know very little theory in that conscious way but the little I know is sometimes useful and it need not do you harm.
 
grimtraveller said:
If you don't mind me saying, this is an example of where theory is being a cage. There is a balance to be struck between knowing things that can work "theoretically" and feeling out what does work for particular song. Quite often people will tell me that something doesn't 'go'. And it's their training that says that because to me, it fits. I guess what I'm saying is that there's a difference between theory and rules. But when writing songs there's many approaches you can take. And if there is a 'rule', it's that the song comes from you. Not from theory. Theories, whether helpful or not do not write songs. It's a tool that can assist but that's about it. I know people that know everything theoretical ~ but they can't write songs. They interpret wonderfully though.

The other thing ~ it's good advice to listen to music and take it apart and maybe even play along. Ultimately however, you need to put all that aside and be you and find your 'voice'. Takes time. The hardest songs to write are possibly the first few. But you'll get into your stride and you get to a point where it's no longer difficult. Whether they're good original songs or not is anyone's guess and everyone's opinion but hey.
I know very little theory in that conscious way but the little I know is sometimes useful and it need not do you harm.
Click to expand...

I concur 1000000% with this long post.
 
The reason to learn theory is so you know what rules you are breaking, and it makes it easier to dissect others' music.

Before I learned any theory I played in a band where one of my bandmates was a music major in college. I would write songs and incorporate progressions and key changes that sounded like the song I was hearing in my head. My theory guy, our bass player, would look at me and say "that's not supposed to work that way" or "that chord isn't supposed to fit there" and it would take him a little bit to wrap his head around my theoretical abomination; but it always worked out and sounded great. Bare in mind, with was a punk band, we weren't some crazy prog group that gave you a headache to follow along.
 
Theory limits and theory extends – it isn’t theories fault it’s your attitude to it.
Theory is about try to capture the ‘natural’ phenomena of music so that it can be transfer through generations and between individuals. It is an arbitrary sign system so that we can collectively co-ordinate or efforts as makers of music.
If you see it as an extension of our music rather then a ‘ body of knowledge’ that wields a power over us then you will get the balance right. Use it when you need it and ignore it if/when it gets in the way of what you want to do.
From what you describe of your new collaboration I think your issue is more with song craft than theory. Sure you can use theory to diagnose what the problems may be but not necessarily.
If you feel your songs sound the same or return to the same intervals (and this is not necessarily a bad thing) then listen to Rogers & Hammerstein for a week, or jazz or country – or the genre you feel your collaborator is writing in. Change the instrument you compose on. Pick out melodies first instead of chords.
The diversity you hear in ‘theory guys’ comes less from their theory and much more from diversity of listening. I have worked with classically train muso and singers who were rich in theory who were crippled when it came to performing contemporary music, because they never listened to it.
Listening to lots music especially in your favoured genres. Concentrate on composing in a few genre that you really understand and enjoy. Play along, but don’t get hung up on not being able to transcribe – that’s like someone not pursuing a great business idea because they can’t use Excel!
Sometimes I worry that people’s issues around not knowing ‘theory’ is they feel that they must do ‘everything’. I appreciate that you feel limits and I would encourage you to always develop your craft, but not at the cost of what you might already be doing really well without theory.
 
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