How many bad songs do you have to write before you write a good one?

late to the thread ...... like everything to do with music, there is no right answer because people do it all sorts of different ways and some get good results with all of them.
I have no doubt that there have been songwriting prodigies that wrote something great the first time out. For others it takes a lot more practice. I do think everyone gets better the more they do it like with any other skill.


But I agree with greg ...... you can't even define what makes a song good. Even if you trot out some requirements that you believe must be met for it to be a good song, you've still only definied what you require to consider it a good song.

Music is inherently a subjective thing since it's an arbitrary thing people made up as they went along.
So there simply is no right or wrong as far as songwriting goes ...... there's only 'like' or 'don't like'
And even the so-called 'great' music is only great to a certain group of people ...... sometimes a very large group but you can always find an even larger group of people that disagree with you.
Take the jazz greats ..... I know plenty of people and even players that hate that stuff. They would flat out declare it bad ..... boring .... self indulgent noodling. I love it ..... we both have equally firm opinions about it
I love Hendrix's songs ..... I think he was a great writer ...... I have a friend that considers him crap.

That's what's fun about music ..... it's in the ear of the beholder .........

And I'm not talking about being out of tune or playing badly ...... I think you can have standards about technical issues like that.

But when talking about songwriting and what makes a good song ....... I don't see how it can ever be anything other than an opinion even if a lot of people share that opinion.
Not as long as there are others who have a different view.
We're both right to our own ears.
 
Lt. Bob said:
late to the thread ...... like everything to do with music, there is no right answer because people do it all sorts of different ways and some get good results with all of them.
I have no doubt that there have been songwriting prodigies that wrote something great the first time out. For others it takes a lot more practice. I do think everyone gets better the more they do it like with any other skill.


But I agree with greg ...... you can't even define what makes a song good. Even if you trot out some requirements that you believe must be met for it to be a good song, you've still only definied what you require to consider it a good song.

Music is inherently a subjective thing since it's an arbitrary thing people made up as they went along.
So there simply is no right or wrong as far as songwriting goes ...... there's only 'like' or 'don't like'
And even the so-called 'great' music is only great to a certain group of people ...... sometimes a very large group but you can always find an even larger group of people that disagree with you.
Take the jazz greats ..... I know plenty of people and even players that hate that stuff. They would flat out declare it bad ..... boring .... self indulgent noodling. I love it ..... we both have equally firm opinions about it
I love Hendrix's songs ..... I think he was a great writer ...... I have a friend that considers him crap.

That's what's fun about music ..... it's in the ear of the beholder .........

And I'm not talking about being out of tune or playing badly ...... I think you can have standards about technical issues like that.

But when talking about songwriting and what makes a good song ....... I don't see how it can ever be anything other than an opinion even if a lot of people share that opinion.
Not as long as there are others who have a different view.
We're both right to our own ears.
Click to expand...

That's what's fun about music ..... it's in the ear of the beholder .........

it might be the fun of it, but it doesnt define if it is well written or not.

The thread is called "how many bad songs do you have to write before you write a good one". In order for somebody to LIKE the song you wrote, it might take one. In order to write a well crafted song, it will first take lots of learning about the craft.

You can leanr how to craft a great song, and nobody like it, thats just how it is. Or you can write a song entirely beat driven, and everybody love it.

There is a difference between a great song, and a great track, most people say whatever they like is GREAT, they are technically wrong.
 
Here's a song that would never be played on radio, would make many fall asleep. But it's a well crafted song, fantastic lyrical story, the tuning of the guitar low and unremarkable, the tone of voice, the language the person in the song uses, Ma, not mom, every part in the track is artistic, paints the person in the song to a tee.

Bruce Springsteen - The Hitter - YouTube

"The Hitter"


Come to the door, Ma, and unlock the chain
I was just passin' through and got caught in the rain
There's nothin' I want, nothin' that you need say
Just let me lie down for a while and then I'll be on my way

I was no more than a kid when you put me on the Southern Queen
With the police on my back I fled to New Orleans
I fought in the dockyards and with the money that I made
And the fight was my home and any blood was my trade

Baton Rouge, Ponchatoula, and La Fayette town
Well they paid me the moon, Ma, to knock the men down
I did what I did, when it come easily
Restraint and mercy were always strangers to me

I fought champion Jack Thompson in a field full of mud
Rain poured through the tent to the canvas and mixed with our blood
In the twelfth, I slipped my tongue over my broken jaw
And I stood over him, pounded his blooded body into the floor

Well the bell rang and rang, still I kept on
'Til I felt my glove leather slip 'tween his skin and bone
And the women and the money came fast, in the days I lost track
The women red, the money green, but the numbers were black
I fought for the men in their silk suits to lay down their bets
Well I took my good share, Ma, and I had no regret

I took the fixed staid hombre with Big Diamond Don*
From high in the rafters I watched myself fall
So he raised his arms, my stomach twisted, and the sky it went black**
I stuffed my bag with their good money, and I never looked back
Understand me, and Ma, every man plays a game
If you know anyone different, then speak out his name

Well Ma, if my voice, now you don't recognize
And just open the door and look into your dark eyes
I ask of you nothin', not a kiss, not a smile
Just open the door and let me lie down for a while

Now the grey rain is fallin' and my ring fighting's done
So in the work fields and alleys, I take them who'll come
If you're a better man than me then just step to the line
And show me your money and speak out your crime
There's nothin' I want, Ma, nothin' that you need say
Just let me lie down for a while and then I'll be on my way

Well tonight in the shipyard, a man draws a circle in the dirt
Like I always do, I move to the centre and I take off my shirt
I study him for the cuts, the scars, the pain man no time can erase
I move hard to the left and I strike to the face
 
barry c said:
That's what's fun about music ..... it's in the ear of the beholder .........

it might be the fun of it, but it doesnt define if it is well written or not.

The thread is called "how many bad songs do you have to write before you write a good one". In order for somebody to LIKE the song you wrote, it might take one. In order to write a well crafted song, it will first take lots of learning about the craft.

You can leanr how to craft a great song, and nobody like it, thats just how it is. Or you can write a song entirely beat driven, and everybody love it.

There is a difference between a great song, and a great track, most people say whatever they like is GREAT, they are technically wrong.
Click to expand...

For me, that's it. I now know you are the board sage for song writtingCineplex.com.jpg.

I yield sir to your authority.
 
DM60 said:
For me, that's it. I now know you are the board sage for song writtingView attachment 84567.

I yield sir to your authority.
Click to expand...

Sage? nah, you give too much praise, although i kind of like when you bow down to me, just for the giggles LOLLLLLL

Look dude, theres more to a great song than your interface, thats the jist of it. Before the home recording boom, these things were essential, now suddenly people think it's all production and recording. For liking it, it is, for being great, it isnt
 
well, nobody would accuse the sex pistols of being great musicians. Most people will state this, and have no qualms about saying it.

So if you liken a musician to a songwriter, just as a musician knows the sex pistols are not great musicians, a songwriter knows that a song is not a great song. Doesnt mean that people dont like it.

I think there is alot more to punk music than people give credit for. I think the Ramones are extremely talented at what they did, it's just not high art

I think the stones said it best "I know it's only rock n roll, but I like it"
 
barry c said:
. I think the Ramones are extremely talented at what they did, it's just not high art

"
Click to expand...
it is to those that think it is.

A mistake you're making is thinking that "well crafted song' has a single immutable definition.
It doesn't and what's well crafted to you might not be that way to me.
 
Most of the artsy fartsy Warhol crowd in NYC though the Ramones were a brilliant, highly intellectual artistic statement. In that era's musical landscape, maybe they were. I don't know if they were or not, but if Warhol says it's art, it's probably art.
 
barry c said:
"The Hitter"
Click to expand...

The working class anti-hero. That's his schtick, and he's had plenty practice getting inside that one character, but this song is not for the fighter he sings about. The fighter would change the station to something with "more of a beat" and the lyrical subtleties would be lost on him, so as an act of musical empathy it does fall a little short for me cuz we're not supposed to feel his pain as much as pity him and feel superior.

Now check this out:


Too Spooky For Me by A.J. Jenkins. THAT is a good fuckin' song. Nothing superior or condescending about it. And Jenkins really knows his way around a hook. Note the repetition- "Too spooky" twice before elaborating- "It's much too spooky for me."... the repetition and foreshadowing just makes it work. Later, the singer says they "have to turn away"...implying something so spooky they can't even look at it. At this point, I think the song actually transgresses the realm of conventional spookiness into a new kind of "extra spooky" spookiness. At 2:08 is a brilliant couplet: "What's that? What's that in the window?/In fact I'd rather not know."... the way Jenkins makes those two lines work together, despite their apparent metric disparities, implies that he is a bold songwriter, unafraid of shaking convention.
 
Lt. Bob said:
it is to those that think it is.

A mistake you're making is thinking that "well crafted song' has a single immutable definition.
It doesn't and what's well crafted to you might not be that way to me.
Click to expand...

There is room for debate on anything, but there are standard undeniable tools of songwriting that a great crafted song will have. Not
that it can all be different, but there are standards
 
Greg_L said:
Most of the artsy fartsy Warhol crowd in NYC though the Ramones were a brilliant, highly intellectual artistic statement. In that era's musical landscape, maybe they were. I don't know if they were or not, but if Warhol says it's art, it's probably art.
Click to expand...

There is no doubt that it is art, and it looks/seems easier than it is. It's just a reasonable goal for a young kid to have. They can look at the Ramones and say "Mom, can you buy me a guitar" and possibly within a few weeks form a band.

You cant do that when trying to play for a symphony or in a jazz trio. It takes years of training.

The only thing that makes the ramones special is that they thought of what they came up with. The genius is in the invention, not the execution.

Everything is art, and can be appreciated by anybody, but it's not high art.
 
fat_fleet said:
the way Jenkins makes those two lines work together, despite their apparent metric disparities, implies that he is a bold songwriter, unafraid of shaking convention.
Click to expand...

And that is why I wouldn't define good from bad. To say something like that is wrong or right



This makes my point.
 
fat_fleet said:
The working class anti-hero. That's his schtick, and he's had plenty practice getting inside that one character, but this song is not for the fighter he sings about. The fighter would change the station to something with "more of a beat" and the lyrical subtleties would be lost on him, so as an act of musical empathy it does fall a little short for me cuz we're not supposed to feel his pain as much as pity him and feel superior.

Now check this out:


Too Spooky For Me by A.J. Jenkins. THAT is a good fuckin' song. Nothing superior or condescending about it. And Jenkins really knows his way around a hook. Note the repetition- "Too spooky" twice before elaborating- "It's much too spooky for me."... the repetition and foreshadowing just makes it work. Later, the singer says they "have to turn away"...implying something so spooky they can't even look at it. At this point, I think the song actually transgresses the realm of conventional spookiness into a new kind of "extra spooky" spookiness. At 2:08 is a brilliant couplet: "What's that? What's that in the window?/In fact I'd rather not know."... the way Jenkins makes those two lines work together, despite their apparent metric disparities, implies that he is a bold songwriter, unafraid of shaking convention.
Click to expand...


But to hook "the hitter" to a catchy beat, would make the song less true. less belieable. He absoutely is capable of doing that, but his artistic choice was to portrait the character correctly
 
listening to it again, to me the craft is in making the sound of the words, not what the words actually say.

It is craft, and skill, but not school book craft...fun tune...
 
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