Electronic U.S. Copyright application: How long before I can publicize the song?

Only that you're overly concerned. :D ;)
Point taken :D but as you demonstrate throughout your remarks, not being concerned enough is worse...

AFA people stealing and all that....odds are very, very, very small. There is just so much music out on the Internet, probably much of it not copyrighted...and you don't see hundreds/thousands of copyright cases every year.
Maybe, but I think this observation relates directly (and unfortunately) to your comments below. See the * below.

It seems to only hit you after you become famous...and then it's usually someone claiming that you stole something! :p
HA! So true!

The 5 months wait is pretty standard...but that's just to get the official hardcopy registration. The minute you submit, it's copyrighted.
THAT is the most important issue to me. The WHEN, so I'm glad to read your comment.

If you are writing killer songs (I'm sure every songwriter is convinced they are :laughings:)...then by all means do it.
I try not to delude myself (much). I don't write a lot of songs. I put a lot into each one and they probably are actually "worth stealing" :D so yeah, I want to have all my legal ducks in a row.

The biggest drawback it seems for most people...they don't want to spend the $35-$50 (not even sure what it is today electronically) per song on the fee...
...but ironically these same people are going to want to sue for millions if their music gets ripped off. :)
Human nature. Sometimes I wonder how such a race survives...

I think most of the recording/uploading newbs these days aren't even aware of this stuff...they just want to post their music, so they don't bother with copyright.
* I think the whole system (and perhaps the concept of artists' rights) has fallen apart in recent years. How many of these noobs you mention are infringing on copyrights of others, but are too ignorant and careless to even realize it? And because they're not making any real money from it there's no point in suing them.

I think rampant theft of copyrighted material is taking place, but nobody has the money to sue and nobody's making enough to be sued. There's no incentive to pursue the matter so "copyright" is pretty much pointless...UNLESS the thief scores a big, money-making hit song.

The "industry" has devolved into an anything-goes morass, but a serious songwriter still has to register his/her songs for copyright, or forfeit any hope of remuneration. Man, I'm bummin' myself out here...
 
And because they're not making any real money from it there's no point in suing them.

And that is really the driving force.
Music made by the masses is basically worthless today. So people don't bother to copyright it.

I think the bigger question is WHY are you copyrighting your music?
No...I don't mean the legal reason...I mean the underlying reason?
IOW...are you planning to promote your music across the internet in the hopes of scoring that big publishing/recording contract...?
Again...99% of music made by the masses is basically worthless today, from a monetary perspective...unless you count the few bucks you can make with YouTube ads all over your music videos. :D

I'm not trying to dissuade you...like I said, I will copyright my new songs same as in the past. It's basically what I grew up with, it's part of my process.
That said...I'm not doing it out of fear from theft, and I know that there's a long way to go (and probably never) before any of my music is anything more than worthless (from a monetary perspective).
Even knowing that, still...I think many of us approach it very much like buying lottery tickets.
Like...if I don't post my music, I'll never be "discovered", and I'll never make the big bucks, so I better post it, and I better copyright it just in case, so no one steals those big bucks out from under me...before I even see them. ;)

PS...you don't have to breakdown everyone's posts to individual sentences, and then quote/respond to each of them like where talking back-n-forth. :)
I mean...just post a general response in paragraph form.
 
I think the bigger question is WHY are you copyrighting your music?
No...I don't mean the legal reason...I mean the underlying reason?
Big question. Short answer: I want the music to promote ME as an artist. And if I don't (at least try to) control the rights to artistic expression that identifies and defines and promotes ME...I have nothing. Each creative work should provide opportunities for me to do more, and be more. I think it's wise to register copyrights under these circumstances, but am not sure it'll ever pay off.

I think many of us approach it very much like buying lottery tickets. Like...if I don't post my music, I'll never be "discovered", and I'll never make the big bucks, so I better post it, and I better copyright it just in case, so no one steals those big bucks out from under me...before I even see them.
There's some of this in me, and in any thinking person who's serious about his/her work product...and needs to eat.

PS...you don't have to breakdown everyone's posts to individual sentences. I mean...just post a general response in paragraph form.
Makes it easier for others to read. Not everyone reads a thread from start to finish, so formatting remarks as dialog helps people drop into the thread and glean individual ideas/concepts (or maybe I'm just not smart enough to do as you recommend...:D)
 
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I had kinda the same notion. I never intended to present myself as an artist wanting to make it, rather I was always kind of hoping one of my songs would get picked up by a performing artist already established. I live in a music town and was a member of a local songwriter's group with good networking connections, so the possibility was there. For those reasons, I registered my works with the copyright office. After many years, I saw that even with 2 or 3 degrees of connection to people who could mill a buck out of my tunes, my tunes weren't good enough to get picked up. So I started focusing on writing music for the basic enjoyment of it. If anyone likes it, cool.... if not, cool. Nowadays, I register only when I have enough material for an album. and I'll register the songs and CD recording together under an SR form. Makes it cheap and simple.

For you, I suggest waiting until you have enough songs ready to go then register them as a collection using the PA form. As Miro pointed out, the second you completed the online registration, your works are covered. How many songs per collection is up to you based on time and money. Registering a collection is a one time fee of $35 (is it still $35??)
 
Thanks for elaborating, Chili. As an aside:

I understand the benefits of Know Who, but it's a tricky business. There's a songwriters' organization where I live. They're a satellite of some Nashville-based organization, and I think they're all INSANE. :eek:

They routinely send their best work to well-connected "patrons" at the Nayshvul home office, and I'm pretty sure those home-office guys hand off the best submissions to their Nashville songwriter pals. The local guys never get any traction as songwriters, but the Nashville contacts always welcome their submissions and "treat 'em real nice" when the locals attend annual events down there. I think the home office sees the locals as a useful "farm team." As suckers. I think the locals are being used...but hey, they're happy. Willing victims.

I played a couple of my tunes for them at monthly meetings. They were surprised/impressed, but I don't play anything there anymore. In fact, I stopped attending when they weren't willing to assure me that NO RECORDING was taking place during performance of original material. Yikes. :mad:


You say you use Form SR for Songs and CD together.

You suggest I use Form PA to register a collection.

Do you recommend PA for me rather than SR because I'm not releasing a CD?
 
If I understand you correctly, you want to get your tunes out there, but want reassurance that your tunes are protected before you do. The fastest way is to do a PA form. The SR is for sound recordings (CDs, Vinyls, cassettes), not for tunes. However, when you register a sound recording, you get the option to register the underlying work also, so long as the authors for every tune are the same. So, to do an SR, you have to a CD or album ready for market.

Here's the clincher with SRs; they are good for only that one sound recording. If you create a CD and register it, it's good to go. If you then create a second CD with the same songs, but change the song order, change instrumentation, change the gap between songs, or anything, that new CD is not covered under the previous SR.

It's $35 for each registration. You can have as many songs as you want in each registration. That's why I recommend registering a collection and registering with the PA form; spread that $35 over several songs. That means waiting until you have several songs written and ready for registration. The trade-off is the time to wait vs. cost of registration for each. If yo have a bunch of songs now, log onto copyright.gov tonight and register them as a collection using the PA form. All of them. Pay $35. Get the confirmation email. Post up on YouTube, Soundcloud, CD Baby, Homerecording.com, etc...

Have fun.
 
... you want to get your tunes out there, but want reassurance that your tunes are protected before you do. The fastest way is to do a PA form.

...I recommend registering a collection and registering with the PA form; spread that $35 over several songs. That means waiting until you have several songs written and ready for registration.

If you have a bunch of songs now, log onto copyright.gov tonight and register them as a collection using the PA form. All of them. Pay $35. Get the confirmation email. Post up on YouTube, Soundcloud, CD Baby, Homerecording.com, etc...

Have fun.
Your quoted remarks above are now THE PLAN, though the omitted SR limitations are every bit as important and instructive. I pasted your entire post into a .doc file that is The Holy Grail for me in terms of understanding SR vs PA. Despite all my online thrashing about and obtuse questions I never understood what you just explained so concisely. It's Form PA for me! THANK YOU, CHILI.:thumbs up:

On a personal note (I deleted this portion because...it's personal)
 
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Glad to help. And everyone else gave great insight too.

Now abut that personal note... what is it with long distance relationships?? My son invited a girl to the prom. She lives 6 hrs away!!! Hasn't even met her yet. Social media takes the face to face out of the social but it also takes the distance out, too. I don't get it.... :(
 
Glad to help. And everyone else gave great insight too.(
ABSOLUTELY. I hope no one misconstrues my appreciation for your synopsis to mean I don't appreciate all other contributions to this thread (and to our shared understanding). I am indebted to EVERYONE who contributes one syllable to this conversation. It really is a thread; taking all comments and points of view into consideration creates the clarity.

Now abut that personal note... what is it with long distance relationships?? My son invited a girl to the prom. She lives 6 hrs away!!! Hasn't even met her yet. Social media takes the face to face out of the social but it also takes the distance out, too. I don't get it.... :(
Yeah, I try to keep my expectations in check. And yes, digital communication overcomes the initial barrier of Distance, but long-distance logistics do make meaningful, natural progress difficult.

It's easy to be INFATUATED in the case of online romance. "Absence makes the heart grow fonder" and "Familiarity breeds contempt" and the lack of face-to-face contact (literally or otherwise, ha) breeds some degree of fantasy.

I applaud your son's willingness to take a chance. In some ways I think online interaction provides a clearer view of one another - perhaps because expressing one's self by typing slows things down, giving both parties a chance to really THINK about what they're conveying.
 
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Hey with regards to meeting someone online or "over the phone" as I did @ 45 years ago....

I got set up with this one gal via a friend...Now I had the benefit of being told by him I was going to "owe him" she was in California terms GU (Geographically undesirable) being a whole whopping 30 minutes away but for over a month we talked on the phone not really knowing what either one looked like...My first date was taking her to McCartney at the Forum....

Holy shit ..I knew she was from Brazil, spoke 7 languages, her parents were both math professors at Pasadena City college and that she was pretty cool....Not a clue as to what she looked like other than my friends "I'm going to owe him" statement...

So I knock on the door ...gulp...a kind of average, slightly chubby girl answers the door and I introduce myself and ask if she is "Betty" she giggles and says no, I'm her cousin, she'll be here in a minute...Uh Oh if this is her cousin....Oh well...

Then she come around the corner...A GODDESS! and she smelled good too! Like exotic smell whoa! We had a great night and an awesome summer of love...alas we were not meant to be forever but what an awesomely good relationship we had...left as good friends but the girl who later on became my wife opted that it would be best for Betty NOT to be on friends list so asta la bye bye to Betty...very cool blind date story though....
 
Hey with regards to meeting someone online or "over the phone" as I did @ 45 years ago....very cool blind date story.
After 45 years of mulling it over, your views on what happened (and what might have) must be crystal clear. If you haven't written THAT song, you're just not tryin'...:D
 
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Dang this thread is deep. I appreciate reading it.
But my opinion is unchanged- the US copyright office is irrelevant.
They offer you no additional protection over independent publication on 3rd party server

I kinda doubt it. I wouldn't want to go to court relying only on the records and reputation of on an entity known as "CD Baby." :D Think about it...

Oh, I have. And I would take the records of CD baby- who ships tunes to Google, Amazon and Apple.. etching creation dates on all of those services... over some old organization who maybe sends you a receipt 5 months later? Like.. I have receipts from people streaming my stuff on Spotify. Any sane judge would give that equal weight as screenshots of a copyright application.

That said- if you are NOT publishing.. like if these are rough tracks and you want to copyright the underlying work only.. it might still be relevant. MAYBE. :)

And look- the heart wants what the heart wants. But a lady far away maybe looks shinier. You don't have a chance to see her bad habits.
 
I'm glad to read your comments too, camn. I like "thinking outside the box" and you're definitely there :D ...and making good sense, too.

...the US copyright office is irrelevant. They offer you no additional protection over independent publication on 3rd party server. CD baby [ships] tunes to Google, Amazon and Apple.. etching creation dates on all of those services...[versus] some old organization who maybe sends you a receipt 5 months later? I have receipts from people streaming my stuff on Spotify. Any sane judge would give that equal weight as screenshots of a copyright application.
Good points, and if you ever actually talk with most government employees they're incompetence and carelessness will destroy your confidence in the whole system after a minute or two. So I get it.

QUESTION: When CD Baby is "etchin' them dates" on the transmissions they effect, what do they do to define THE SONG in concrete terms? In other words, CD Baby shows a record of a transmission of DATA, but how is the song itself defined? IS the song defined at all? There needs to be a recording or musical notation on paper or some other very complete and specific DATED document that you can submit as evidence of the song in a law suit. If no Library of Congress Copyright submission was made, where is the "evidence" of the song itself?

...if you are NOT publishing.. like if these are rough tracks and you want to copyright the underlying work only.. it might still be relevant. MAYBE. :)
That's me, and for now I think I'll do both. Belt and suspenders, right?
Another excellent point. Thanks.

And look- the heart wants what the heart wants. But a lady far away maybe looks shinier. You don't have a chance to see her bad habits.
Amen, brother. :D
 
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So I started focusing on writing music for the basic enjoyment of it. If anyone likes it, cool.... if not, cool.
That's something you wrote a few posts back, Chili, regarding your experiences with a local songwriters' group. I agree with you, and that point is one of the reasons I parted company with my own local songwriter's group.

The primary reason for my leaving the group was that they would not guarantee that NO RECORDING was taking place when members were performing original as-yet-unprotected material at the monthly meetings. THAT is a big problem and is why I left, but I also did not agree with their methods and approach to songwriting.

That group is a satellite of a Nashville songwriters organization. The group leaders encouraged everyone to take a formulaic approach to song structure, style, subject matter and everything else - based entirely on what is popular and accepted by "the Nashville elite" right now. That's the wrong approach for SO MANY REASONS...:eek:

I pushed back. I told them the only way to write GOOD SONGS is to write for yourself and trust that others will "get it." My songs are much better than anything I heard in those meetings (seriously and without bragging) so I know you and I are on the right track.

I just wanted to mention it, and thank you for sharing that insight.
 
I hear ya... I don't have a problem playing my tunes at a songwriter's meeting. I doubt anyone is going to rip me off. I quit for other reasons; schedule and location, basically. One thing I didn't like was the carrot they kept holding out in front of you. Always providing opportunities to get your songs heard by people who can get them signed. Yet, it seems no one ever does and you come away with the impression that while they take the time to listen to your songs, they reserve the real opportunities for their own stable of songwriters back in Nashville.

Thought about joining up again, but more so to help others out. Like for recording or backing instrumentation, networking, etc. I've been playing bass in a few cover bands and would like to meet up with someone looking to start an originals band.
 
Thought about joining up again, but more so to help others out. Like for recording or backing instrumentation, networking, etc. I've been playing bass in a few cover bands and would like to meet up with someone looking to start an originals band.
Yes. I saw lots of opportunity for "providing services" such as you describe, and for GETTING PAID in the process (yeah, eating every day is important, ha). And I agree that finding potential band mates and/or writing partners with whom you're comfortable working is not easy, but would be worth the effort in more ways than one. Follow your instincts.
 
Guys....sorry to drag out this old topic but I'm confused after reading through this thread. I have a collection of songs that I need to copyright only the lyrics, composition, arrangement and music. I did perform most of the tracks on each song but not all and that's why I only want to claim music and lyrics and arrangement. If I select "Sound Recording" on the copyright website.......their description seems to say that I'm claiming all performance rights.

I went to the US copyright site and registered but got lost after that. If I list every song then I have to pay for each one separately. How do I submit the collection without claiming all performance rights etc?

Also.......another question......if I use sources such as drums programs and samples from the web....etc....etc.......how does that affect my claim?
 
Ive done it both ways.
The SR is the one I generally use due to its cheaper and I dont care so much if its recorded well or with what.

If you are both the music/words author and the sound recording is you then you can use SR. Your issue is some others are on the SR, so
are you wanting to lock in that performance and arrangement or just make your ownership legal?

Heres what I got from the CO:
We are writing for clarification regarding your claim. Your note to us references the songs and the recording. The songs (the composed words and music) and the sound recording (the recorded performances and sound/audio engineering) are separate works for registration purposes and may be registered together in certain circumstances when the ownership is the same.

From your note, it appears that you are the author and claimant/owner of the songs, but possibly the authorship and ownership of the sound recordings is different? Ownership initially resides with the authors, and the authors of a sound recording are the principal performers, the producers, or both.

Please clarify who is the author and owner of the sound recordings, and we will advise you further regarding your registration options.


in my case I was both so SR it was.
 
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Hey thanks CoolCat........but I'm still confused a little. It seems you were the author of the song lyric and arrangement...........as well as the author and original performer of the sound recording....correct? So for you to chose SR would make sense. I just want to get legal ownership as the writer of the song..........words and music. Years ago I was able to send in a CD with a collection of all my songs on it and was able to state that I was only claiming rights as the writer and not the performer. The collection got a copyright under the title of the CD. Basically I need to do the same thing now for my newer songs.
 
So it sounds like you answered your own question ...just do the Words/Music.
I think if you record all the tunes quickly with a acoustic or piano and sing it and add the words etc....you can do SR all on your own and get both for the same cost.

Its easy to forget when you dont do this alot and they do change things time to time.
 
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