Of Tubes and Pres

Right. So it's just their budget solid state mic preamp with a tube shoe-horned into it for marketing purposes.

Except that the tube does alter the sound whatever it's doing to the signal, and some people might like that sound more than just a solid state preamp alone. For those people, I imagine it's more than just marketing. It's a sound choice.
 
Except that the tube does alter the sound whatever it's doing to the signal, and some people might like that sound more than just a solid state preamp alone. For those people, I imagine it's more than just marketing. It's a sound choice.

But like Jay is saying....in those cheap, starved plate designs....the tube actually doesn't do much of anything to the signal. You could remove it from the circuit and it wouldn't matter. It's only there to create the "it's tube gear" hype.
 
But like Jay is saying....in those cheap, starved plate designs....the tube actually doesn't do much of anything to the signal. You could remove it from the circuit and it wouldn't matter. It's only there to create the "it's tube gear" hype.

I really don't know how much a part it's playing in the signal because of course the companies won't release their designs. I have heard examples though where using just the solid state preamp, then mixing in the tube, then replacing the tube, have all made a noticeable difference in sound, so it sounds like it's doing something.
 
How do you first go SS and then "mix in the tube".....is it some preamp that lets you flip a switch and remove the tube completely from the circuit, or do you mean two different pres, one SS and one with a tube...?

Anyway, to bring it back to your OP....I don't think for VO/spoken word the tube or lack of will be that key to the sound.
I still think the mic will make a bigger difference, and there are a few very VO/spoken word specifc mic that have stood the test of time.
 
How do you first go SS and then "mix in the tube".....is it some preamp that lets you flip a switch and remove the tube completely from the circuit, or do you mean two different pres, one SS and one with a tube...?

Anyway, to bring it back to your OP....I don't think for VO/spoken word the tube or lack of will be that key to the sound.
I still think the mic will make a bigger difference, and there are a few very VO/spoken word specifc mic that have stood the test of time.

There are some preamps, like the SP VTB-1, that allow you to mix-in the tube. The PreSonus will be all solid state if you set the drive to its lowest level, then as you turn it up it mixes in and drives the tube more. I think ART also has one particular model that allows you to decide how much tube to mix with the solid state preamp.

I completely agree the mic makes the biggest difference. It's just nice to have a variety of options to customize the signal chain with.
 
Again, none if those are tube preamps. They are solid state preamps with a distortion effect, using a tube starved of enough voltage to work properly, that you can dial in.

Yes, different tube designs (not all 12ax7's are the same design) will react differently to being under powered, so the rrsult can be different when you swap tubes. Also, worn out tubes sound different that fresh ones.

The point that is trying to be made here is that in a real tube preamp, the tube is used to amplify the signal. In all the preamps you have mentioned, solid state amplifies the signal and the tube is used for some effect and marketing hype. There is nothing to say that the tube us even doi g the bulk of the effect. You could be dialing in filter that pushes the mids foward, or dialing out a filter that will make the solid state only setting a little harsh.

(unrelated, but along the same lines, BBE was found to have a filter in bypass mode that made the audio sound extra dull. more dull than if you didnt have the unit in the loop. This of course made everything magically "sound better" when it was taken out of bypass. So there is precidence for companies making certain modes sound bad on purpose in order to give the impression that the feature they are hyping sound like it is doing more than it is.
 
Again, none if those are tube preamps. They are solid state preamps with a distortion effect, using a tube starved of enough voltage to work properly, that you can dial in.

Yes, different tube designs (not all 12ax7's are the same design) will react differently to being under powered, so the rrsult can be different when you swap tubes. Also, worn out tubes sound different that fresh ones.

The point that is trying to be made here is that in a real tube preamp, the tube is used to amplify the signal. In all the preamps you have mentioned, solid state amplifies the signal and the tube is used for some effect and marketing hype. There is nothing to say that the tube us even doi g the bulk of the effect. You could be dialing in filter that pushes the mids foward, or dialing out a filter that will make the solid state only setting a little harsh.

(unrelated, but along the same lines, BBE was found to have a filter in bypass mode that made the audio sound extra dull. more dull than if you didnt have the unit in the loop. This of course made everything magically "sound better" when it was taken out of bypass. So there is precidence for companies making certain modes sound bad on purpose in order to give the impression that the feature they are hyping sound like it is doing more than it is.

Farview I think you're just arguing with yourself here. No one has been disputing anything you're saying or have been saying. I've been saying, "The tubes effect the sound," which they do, and you've been saying, "The preamp isn't being powered by the tube," which no one has disagreed with. They're still called "tube preamps" not because they're being driven by the tube, but because they have a tube in which does effect things to various degrees. I think the degree to which it effects things is even different from one manufacturer to the next.

My point is, it sounds different than a solid state preamp on its own, and some people might prefer that sound. I was curious in what way exactly the tubes were effecting the sound, how they were effecting the signal, but I guess we wouldn't really know that unless one of the manufacturers released their designs which they won't do, considering implementation of exactly how the tube is included and used in the signal path can vary from one manufacturer to the next.
 
I was curious in what way exactly the tubes were effecting the sound, how they were effecting the signal....

I do think that's the part you keep missing in Jay's posts. He's been telling you how the tubes in the cheap, starved-plate designs sound, work and that they don't really do what a tube does in properly designed tube gear....so that "effect" you are hearing has little to do with Solid State VS Tube preamps.

It's not about liking or not liking that starved-plate sound.
You're OP was asking about using tube preamps VS solid state designs...and we're telling that properly designed, real tube preamps are a whole other animal. IOW, what the "tube" does in those cheap, starved-plate designs could be easily mimicked with a typical distortion filter/FX added to any SS preamp, BUT The "tube" is used just for sales hype.

You seem to be looking for someone to tell you that even in cheap, starved-plate tube gear, the "tube" makes a difference and therefore it must be worth using. Well....that's something you can decide for yourself (though I think you already have).
If your looking for some other kind of answer....I'm not sure what it is.
 
I do think that's the part you keep missing in Jay's posts. He's been telling you how the tubes in the cheap, starved-plate designs sound, work and that they don't really do what a tube does in properly designed tube gear.

What he's been saying is that the tube adds some distortion to the signal. Great. I don't see anyone disputing that either.

You're OP was asking about using tube preamps VS solid state designs...and we're telling that properly designed, real tube preamps are a whole other animal.

There's also been no argument about this. If you re-read my above post, you'll see I've already acknowledged and agreed to this.

You seem to be looking for someone to tell you that even in cheap, starved-plate tube gear, the "tube" makes a difference and therefore it must be worth using.

I've never asked whether or not it's worth using. You're reading into what I've been saying. When a signal sounds different with just the the solid state preamp than it does with the tube in the mix, when taking the tube out of the mix makes one sound and putting it back in the mix makes another sound, and when changing the tube makes a different sound, it's obviously making a difference in the sound. Whether or not someone likes that difference is entirely up to them. I've pointed out some might like that sound, I've never said I was or was not one of them nor, as I already mentioned, have I made any attempts to say such a thing is worth using. At its most basic level I was asking about signal paths, such as this much of the signal goes through the tube, this much of the signal does not, and so on.

I also never suggested the tubes themselves were driving the preamps because I already knew they were not, although this particular point keeps coming up.

It's all really mystifying and mildly entertaining. It's like someone is saying, "It's green!" and the other person is saying, "I know it's green!" and the other person responds by saying, "But it's green!"

To put it another way, it's like I'm talking about numbers and everyone else wants to politely argue about letters. Heck that's fine if that's what you want to do, but again you're not arguing with me, you're just arguing with yourselves.
 
So, what's the current prevailing wisdom? Are tube pre-amps nothing more than snake oil? Do they make a difference?

This is what you asked in your OP.

I think those are the questions that have been answered, and yet, you seem not to like the answers, rather you come back and state that they DO make a difference and that some people may like that sound, which imples that you think they are not snake oil.

What do you really want to know that you haven't alreayd made up your mind about?
 
This is what you asked in your OP.

I think those are the questions that have been answered, and yet, you seem not to like the answers, rather you come back and state that they DO make a difference and that some people may like that sound, which imples that you think they are not snake oil.

What do you really want to know that you haven't alreayd made up your mind about?

Again, you're reading into things and assuming things :). Seems to be a common pass-time, at least in this thread.

Perhaps your definition is different, but for me, if no tube in the signal path creates one sound, and having a tube in the signal path, however it's being utilized, creates a different sound, then yes, it does make a difference. Whether someone likes that difference or not is up to them. For me, I haven't completely decided yet.

But, I hereby relinquish this thread to you. My questions have been answered through a combination of things said here and further research I've done. If arguing on the Internet is how you get your jollies I certainly won't stand in your way. Have fun.
 
Again, you're reading into things and assuming things :). .

Actually...I was just reading your original post and responding to it.

I'm glad your research panned out for you.
Let us know when you've decided if you like that "tube" difference or not. :)
 
Just a couple of thoughts?

Mention was made of "EQ" differences or changes and this was largely dismissed?

That is fair enough in general but valves can and do have an influence on frequency response. Valves have an internal resistance or "Anode slope resistance" Ra and unlike transistors (or pentodes) which have an R of meg Ohms, valve Ra's are comparable to circuit resistances and rarely higher than around 60kOhms. This means that in conjunction with other circuit reactances, caps and inductors, they will affect "The Tone"!

Worse still, different types of valves will have different Ras in the 10:1 ratio and worse STILL! This resistance changes as the valve ages!

These changes in response can be mitigated by using extra stages and enclosing the amplifier in Negative Feedback (see the Gyraff mic amp) which of course is done for hi fi valve amplifiers but mainly to reduce distortion in that case.

Triode valves also have significant input capacitance and will form a low pass filter if significant Z is present in the grid circuit.

All this means that you will rarely get an identical performance from two, nominally identical, valve designs, unless they have been carefully (read expensively!) designed to be so.

ICs on the other hand use massive amounts of NFB and give exemplary results that can be counted on for decades and probably centuries. They are cheap, low power and deliver cracking quality up to close to the supply rail voltage.

Silicon rocks! (except those made from Aluminium, Calcium....di da!)

Dave.
 
You could use an SM58 with an ART MP for your voice over and tell everyone you used an U47 and 1176 and no one would know the difference with a little processing .
 
I guess all I was trying to do was point out the difference between a tube preamp and a solid state preamp with a tube effect. They are two different animals and should not be confused.

If you want to actually compare a solid state preamp and a tube preamp, you would need to find an actual tube preamp and a solid state preamp in the same general price range.

Does the tube stage in one of the preamps you mentioned sound different with vs without it in the loop? Yes, of course it does, otherwise customers would be upset for paying extra for a knob/switch that does absolutely nothing.

Ecc83 explained the electrical reasons why different tubes will sound different in a circuit designed to exploit the disadvantages of the way tubes work.
 
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