Tracking Levels- hmmm?

[CoolCat]

There's the common debate of compressors, limiters going in....some say comps are not needed anymore Tracking in the digital world DAW. My understanding is its because digital doesnt have all the tape hiss noise when the track isnt max'd out, empty tape area = tape hiss. (for lack of correct terminology.)

So today I was checking my Input levels.
I have a Pbass into a JDI, into a PreAmp. The preamp out has a meter with a calibration pot and the interface allows monitoring Input or Output, I selected Input today...to see if my gain stage was right going in. It was all "calibrated" and -12 was -12 was -12 etc,,,

Then I thought I would lay a couple tracks using what some HRists use, the -24db tracking level.
Then I did a track with -12db as some HRists say thats their tracking levels.

as I reviewed my novice hobby Bass playing on the waveforms they both appear to have all kinds of room before clipping.
but due to some pick hits....some spikes -6 were seen in nanosecond movement of the needles, and I thought about a compressor or limiter would smooth it out. But the waveform was so far away from clipping I thought why spend the cash?

so the question is to anyone, are you using a compressor/limiter going in? yes, no...and why?

Seems a comp/limiter isnt really needed.

1) is it just to offer peace of mind insurance? to catch a peak from clipping..which would have to be super loud,,,

2) or is it a FX unit for warmdirt? its not really a tool its used as some effects box.

3) just record levels of -12 , -24 and save money and do the dynamics ITB during mixing?

 

[ashcat_lt]

In this day and age, the only good reason to use a hardware compressor on the way in is if you already own it and know that it’s giving you the sound you want. We shouldn’t have to use them for protection anymore, and there’s no good reason to go buy one if you can find a plugin to get the sound you want. It can be good to commit to your sounds early, but you don’t need hardware for that. You need a strong vision, confidence, and discipline.


Edit - I should say this is from a recording only perspective. If you play live (and aren’t like me where you play through a computer anyway), and you know a compressor is important to your sound, that’s a good reason to buy a hardware unit. Then, whether you use it in the studio is up to you.

 

[TalismanRich]

I put a compressor on the bass to level out the variations in the sound levels, not to give headroom. A really good bassist might be able to control the volume, but I certainly can't. I end up with passages that are too low, or a few notes that are too hot for the song. I use the compressor in my Tascam going into Reaper, just to smooth things out a bit. If I get it right, that's one less plugin that I have to add to the mix. If not, I can always add a bit more compression.

I've also pulled my old PODxt out and used the Bassman setting lately, just to give it some color. It works better than using my guitar amps and a mic.

 

[miroslav]

It's not just about preventing clipping on the way in...or as an "FX" box.

(For the record...I'm talking about using hardware comps in what follows)

Like you mentioned Bass playing...if you use some compression on the way in, it can smooth things out. Now some will say you can apply it after the fact in the DAW...but that's not the same as hearing the compression do its thing while you play. IOW...if you're performance is smooth going in...you play more smoothly.
Applying it after the fact is about fixing issues...and it won't impact the performance.

Also...some comps change the shape of the tone, so it's not just for dynamics or FX...but even if you're just using one as a safety net for the signal level, I find that "helping" the signal level a little bit in stages, is better than trying to sort it all out later.

Of course...there is no need to use a comp/limiter all the time on every track going in...but there is also no reason NOT to use it if you like working that way.

Much of it may be about mindset...back in the day, engineers strived to capture the right sounds at the front end...and then mixing them was pretty straightforward. These days...a lot of folks want to fix the sounds after they capture them so that they can mix them.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I happen to have access to a rack full of compressors. I work in a friend's private studio that started out analog (Akai MG1212), transitioned to digital tape (Tascam M-2600 MkII + 2 DA38) and finally replaced tape with a DAW. But it kept the console and rack of gear. So I keep compressors patched on kick, bass, pedal steel and vocals. It's not to prevent overs, it's because I know the band so well that I know how to set the compressors to make things just a little easier down the road. When I record outside bands I might keep them active or I might simply hit the bypass buttons if I don't want to commit to it. If I had to go completely without compressors, it would be no problem.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I use the compressor in my Tascam going into Reaper, just to smooth things out a bit.

What Tascam? If it's an interface with effects, wouldn't mean you're using a compressor after the ADC?

 

[ashcat_lt]

There’s nothing stopping you from doing any of the above with plugin compressors. Reaper has Input FX that get recorded as you play. If you can’t monitor through that without latency that you actually notice, then you have other issues. Like I said, if you have the hardware, that’s great, but if it’s a matter of going out and buying a new one, I honestly don’t see the benefit other than like satisfying gas and having shiny toys to play with. Both valid reasons, mind you. If you’ve got the dollars and the itch, then go for it. If it’s stopping you from recording right now, though, just slap on a plugin and get on with things!

 

[TalismanRich]

What Tascam? If it's an interface with effects, wouldn't mean you're using a compressor after the ADC?

The Tascam 16x08 has DSP EQ and Compression inside the interface. You set it with the interface control. I'm sure its after the ADC, in the digital domain, but it doesn't take CPU power and doesn't seem to add latency.
Technically, its not a "hardware" compressor, but it functions the same way. What gets sent to the DAW for recording is a compressed signal, as opposed to using a plugin after the fact.

 

[miroslav]

I honestly don’t see the benefit other than like satisfying gas and having shiny toys to play with. Both valid reasons, mind you.

Even if you think they are valid reasons...I find it amusing that you think that's all hardware is, just shiny toys and gas satisfaction...and recording/mixing is all about plugins and ITB.

Not saying working ITB is bad, mind you.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

The Tascam 16x08 has DSP EQ and Compression inside the interface. You set it with the interface control. I'm sure its after the ADC, in the digital domain, but it doesn't take CPU power and doesn't seem to add latency.
Technically, its not a "hardware" compressor, but it functions the same way. What gets sent to the DAW for recording is a compressed signal, as opposed to using a plugin after the fact.

Right. What I was getting at is that using such a DSP compressor won't prevent overs at the converter. But I'm sure it has some benefits. I think when recording guitar or bass, it can be useful to have certain effects active in real time. It affects the way you play.

 

[spantini]

I recorded my PJ bass > interface > DAW clean with FX in monitor mix. Record level was -18db but, using a pick, the opening notes hit -8db+ so I added some light comp to smooth that out on playback. It sounds good with the first rough track of drums, but may fix it with a comp'd bass part and remove the compression for later use.

 

[gecko zzed]

I find it amusing that you think that's all hardware is, just shiny toys and gas satisfaction...and recording/mixing is all about plugins and ITB.

That wasn't what Ashcat was saying at all. I think you turned his facetious into fact.

 

[gecko zzed]

For years I went direct into compressor, and used ITB compressors. I was quite happy with that.

Whhen I quit doing live mixing, I had assorted rack gear that was no longer in use.

So, because I had a compressor sitting idle, because I had room on my recording desk, and because my interface has inserts, I connected it up and it happily compresses on the way in.

 

[ashcat_lt]

That wasn't what Ashcat was saying at all.

I mean, it’s not that far off.

I had a seven foot tall rack with compressors, EQs, preamps, recorders, synths, FX... AND a four foot wide mixing console AND miles of cable connecting all of it. Some of its still around either repurposed or just “in storage”. Don’t miss any of it and would kind of like for most of it to go away.

 

[miroslav]

I mean, it’s not that far off.

I had a seven foot tall rack with compressors, EQs, preamps, recorders, synths, FX... AND a four foot wide mixing console AND miles of cable connecting all of it. Some of its still around either repurposed or just “in storage”. Don’t miss any of it and would kind of like for most of it to go away.

But that's your personal choice...that you would kind of like most of it to go away...though not really sure what that means or why you would even say it...?
Go away from your world...?...or go away altogether from the entire recording world?
If you mean your world...what's stopping you from making it go away...? If you mean the whole recording world...why...?...do you feel bothered by it if others use it...?

And that's why I commented in the previous post...you suggesting that hardware is just shiny toys for quenching audio GAS...comes off as ignorant on some levels or personal bias...and I don't say that to insult you, I just get the feeling that because YOU went ITB, you think it's an absolute perspective all should take...and why you need to see most of it go away.
I will agree that mediocre hardware is easily beaten by great software...but great hardware can do the same to most software...so we can't just refer to all hardware as "shiny toys".
I'm curious what rack gear you have laying around in storage that you chucked for ITB? If it's really good stuff...then it's worth something more than storage.

I doubt you would ever agree...but there actually ARE many instances where the hardware simply sounds, works or feels better...and that's not just my personal opinion, but it's supported by all the people who use it regularly, and in many ways, hardware and consoles are making a comeback...because ITB is not great for everything, and people see that there is more value in hybrid approaches.
In the home rec world...it's a different mindset, and going ITB for most people is about $$$...the lack of it.

 

[ashcat_lt]

It's not as easy as you might think to unload a SoundCraft Ghost in the Middle of Nowhere. The local MGR will give me almost nothing for it because even they're not confident they could sell it. I managed to get rid of a lot of the rack gear, but there's still a few pieces on a shelf downstairs. None of it's really in the way, so I haven't put a lot of effort into it.

I'm not really interested in the argument about what "sounds better" because I don't believe that's a thing. I do appreciate the fact that some people just get along better with hardware, and I don't really fault them for that. If having that thing to hold and touch and turn knobs and whatever else really helps to inspire you and keep you engaged and making music, that's fine with me. I was kind of joking when I called them "toys", but in a way it kind of is, and I don't actually think that's a bad thing either.

In the home rec world...it's a different mindset, and going ITB for most people is about $$$...the lack of it.

But so often we see our fellow home recordists save up money, drop it on some thing they thought was going to take them to the next level, and they're blown away for about a week, then they're back asking the same advice about the same issues that had nothing at all to do with the particular color of the preamp they chose. If you're not sure why you would buy a hardware compressor at all, let alone this one versus that versus that other one which is actually the same one but a different manufacturer, maybe like save the money and sort your other shit out first.

 

[TalismanRich]

C'mon Ashcat. Its a proven fact that if you can't make your recording sound like it was done at Abbey Road or Air Studios, then you need more and better, more expensive gear. Technique has absolutely nothing to do with it!!!!

The same thing applies to guitars, drums and keyboards.

 

[miroslav]

I'm not really interested in the argument about what "sounds better" because I don't believe that's a thing.

........

I was kind of joking when I called them "toys", but in a way it kind of is, and I don't actually think that's a bad thing either.

I wasn't talking about "better" as a purely subjective view that changes from one person to the next...but when you have quite a large consensus of people who are generally "in the know" about audio gear , often on a pro level...and they en masse come to the same conclusion about a piece of gear, I think there is more to that than just some haphazard subjectivity. Yes...everyone can have an opinion, but again...there are times when experienced opinion made by a larger group, means something more than just "to me" subjectivity.

Now if you were just kidding about the "shiny toys" view...OK...but you keep saying that, and then coming back and saying they very well are just shiny toys...and I think that's just bias talking, but certainly not reality.

Just as one small example...and I have no reason for picking out this gear (I don't even own it)...but if you take most any piece of Manley audio gear, it will outperform most comparable plugins on many levels, but I'm sure there are cases where you might like the plugin sound, more...but calling any of their hardware nothing more than "shiny toys"...almost smacks of envy.

AFA the Soundcraft Ghost...it's the kind of item that leans mostly in the home project world, with maybe some instances where it found its way into a small commercial gig. So these days, to sell that kind of gear that was originally aimed at the home rec crowd before DAWs took over...it's pretty hard.
It's not interesting enough for any more serious pro use...and the home rec crowd has for the most part bought into ITB...cheaply...and getting out is hard.
I mean...once you cross that line and go all ITB...it's hard to come back to analog hardware, because you would have to buy into some of that more serious stuff you call "shiny toys" for it to be worthwhile...and most home rec guys won't because they can't...and I do think often there is a denial of high-end hardware value because of it.

The home rec guys who buy one piece of high-end gear because they think it will take them to the next level, as you say...that doesn't make the hardware inferior because some guy was misguided about his overall skills or rig. One expensive compressor in an otherwise lackluster rig, or where it's all ITB, and you think adding one piece of hardware will somehow make a big difference...isn't the fault of the hardware. People need to consider entire signal chains...and the skill to use it....so making it seem like that piece of hardware is just a "toy" is not an accurate perspective, IMO.

I've got my own closet full of middlin' hardware that over the years showed it's just not on the same level as some other pieces...and all you need is one bad link in a chain...and it's shit. I just gave away my old Tascam 3500 console for free...and it was still 100% functional, and pretty decent for what it was.
So I've been happily removing that gear (which is more on the "toy" side) and replacing it with higher-end, quality hardware...and the differences are obvious.

C'mon Ashcat. Its a proven fact that if you can't make your recording sound like it was done at Abbey Road or Air Studios, then you need more and better, more expensive gear. Technique has absolutely nothing to do with it!!!!

The same thing applies to guitars, drums and keyboards.

Not sure what point you are making...no one said that you don't need technique if you have high-end gear...???

Of course...it's also a fact that no amount of technique is going to make a crappy piece of gear sound/work better...it will work up to its limitations, and that's it.

 

[ecc83]

Steady lads!

Whilst "Clean, Flat and Dry" is the current received wisdom I would suggest bass git is the exception that proves the rule? The bass guitar is VERY unruly in its levels (comes from not being a 'proper' instrument I guess?) and even quite low end bass rigs sport a compressor.
So, if you want to HEAR nice bass as you record it seems to me reasonable to comp' going in. The bass is also not easy to record acoustically from the speaker as we found with a 200W Fane in a 6cuft cab. DI'ed'bugger.

Dave.

 

[miroslav]

Steady lads!

Whilst "Clean, Flat and Dry" is the current received wisdom I would suggest bass git is the exception that proves the rule? The bass guitar is VERY unruly in its levels (comes from not being a 'proper' instrument I guess?) and even quite low end bass rigs sport a compressor.
So, if you want to HEAR nice bass as you record it seems to me reasonable to comp' going in. The bass is also not easy to record acoustically from the speaker as we found with a 200W Fane in a 6cuft cab. DI'ed'bugger.

Dave.

Funny you should bring up the bass.

For years I've been tracking DI, and often I would toss a hardware ELOP limiter into the chain coming from the DI, just to smooth out the signal.

Just recently I picked up a bass preamp/amp because I thought I might try other approaches...and it comes with a comprehensive EQ and comp section.
I can just use the preamp section...or also turn on the amp, if I want to add a cab and mic it too.
The unit is pricey for sure (though I got a good deal on it)...but it's like the bass players dream tool, and it's all right there in one box, all in real time, with real knobs...so you can just plug into it and play...and if you want to make adjustments, you just reach and turn some knobs....which is a much more pleasant way of working than having to go sit at the computer, grab the mouse, find some plugins...etc...etc.