Tracking Blues

spantini

COO of me, inc.
It's the usual problem.. frequently, when I hit that record button and start playing, I get so far and blow it. Take after take, a different flub in a different spot, over and over. Well, that's what the DAW's takes help with, but my way of thinking is.. if I can get up in front of an audience and play 50-60 songs without so much as a single mistake, why the hell can't I do it in front of my recorder?

Well.. surprise! This morning I laid down the first guitar in my current project and made it straight through with no mistakes.

I believe practicing along with a scratch drum track for 3 weeks had something to do with it. The long practicing was needed to get back the calouses lost from infrequent playing this past year.
 
I mean they are significantly different experiences, aren’t they? When you’re on stage in front of people it’s a relatively high energy, high stakes situation that forces into a that sort of hyper focused flow state of peak performance. In the studio it’s often much more relaxed. We know at least subconsciously that we have that safety net where if we mess up, we can go back and fix it or do it again. For many of us recording ourselves, we’ve also got quite a few other things on our mind so that it can be very difficult to really focus in that same way.

OTOH I think also we tend to let things go in a live situation that we might not when recording. If we miss a beat or hit a wrong note, it’s come and gone so fast that we sometimes don’t even notice, but if we do we know there’s no going back anyway, so we just keep going and as long as the vibe was there, and everybody had a good time, nobody even remembers or cares. This is even more true if you’ve had a little drinkypoo and/or that “safety meeting” with the band before the show.

I have actually a few times taken steps in the studio to make it feel more like a live gig. Crank things way up. Stand up. Turn off all the lights except for one bright “stage light” blasting in your face. Adjust your brain chemicals something like you would at the club. Do what you need to do to “get there”. It might feel kind of silly, like you’re “playing rockstar” in your bedroom or whatever, but it can sometimes kind of help.
 
...if I can get up in front of an audience and play 50-60 songs without so much as a single mistake...


I'm sure there are many things that you let pass when playing live, that you call mistakes when recording.
Playing live you know there is no option to stop and start over...so you push through...but with tracking, you want absolute perfection, so you stop.

I quit on that stop/start approach many years ago when DAW editing made it pointless. I simply play through to the end, and if I made some mistakes, I do another take, but keep the previous one.
I find that if you know what you want to play...you can usually do 3-5 takes without stopping, and then simply comp for that one "perfect" take...since as you noted, you will probably make small mistakes in different spots...so it's easy to comp and avoid them.

Even if it seems perfect at take 20...the life has already gone out of it after about 5 takes. You're better off to stop and walk away from it for awhile if you want to keep going with more takes.

I was listening to some old Rod Stewart/Faces tracks...and there were some live recordings. I forget which song it was, but at one point you can hear the lead guitar kinda mess up one measure (I think it was Ron Wood on slide), like he wasn't sure what he wanted to play...but then on the next few he nailed it.
No one got upset...the crowd cheered at the end. In the studio, they stopped and re-tracked it to get it right or punched it in (back in tape days). :)
 
Red Light Fever! Yes indeed.

Any sort of jedi mind tricks you can play on yourself can help. It can help to be set up and ready to go so you're not worried about your sound, mic placement or any of the futzing you need to do on the technical side. Pulling out a great performance is a different mindset. Lighting and atmosphere in the room can help sometimes. Sylvia Massy has some interesting techniques for pissing off the talent so they just step up and knock out a great performance. Things like go run around the block and come back for another take.

Sometimes people have brought an audience in to the studio with good results.
 
Even if it seems perfect at take 20...the life has already gone out of it after about 5 takes. You're better off to stop and walk away from it for awhile if you want to keep going with more takes.
I've never found this to be the case. I couldn't tell from a band/artist's chosen take whether it was a first or 100th take. A case in point; The Beatles' "I will." The take that was chosen was the 67th take. Another example, the Rolling Stones "Sympathy for the Devil." They did so many takes and the song kept changing. By the time they settled on the final version they'd done loads of takes. Same thing with "Start me up" ~ loads of takes, a changing song that the world sings today. Sometimes, it's those later takes of multiple efforts that reach for where the artist wanted to go in the first place so it kind of can work both ways. Speaking personally, if I've ever attempted a song many times, even if I can't stand the sound of it by the time I turn off the multitracker, by the following day it'll sound fine and as fresh as it needs to be. I'm looking for this intangible feel that I recognize when I find it, be it one take or 10.
 
I'm still relatively new to this DAW stuff so am still in the mindset of getting it right the first time. For now anyway, practicing up to it has worked. I don't record after 4-5 run throughs when, as you say, the life has gone out of it, but wait until the next day and pick it up fresh.

I'm going to put up a Hendrix poster and a black light.. that should get me into the Top 200 ;) :p

jimi.jpg
 
I've never found this to be the case. I couldn't tell from a band/artist's chosen take whether it was a first or 100th take. A case in point

I don't think there is a linear progression in either direction, i.e. 'the more takes the worse it gets' or 'the more takes the better it gets'. I think there is a curve involved. So, when starting off, the first few takes are often the best. From there on, things get worse, and it's a case of diminishing returns and a journey into lifelessness. But then, there comes a point when the song has been done so many times that you don't have to think about the song anymore as it has become embedded into your brain, you can start playing with it without fear, and you regain life.
 
"The blues isn't about feelin' better. It's about making other people feel worse. And makin' a few bucks while you're at it."

~ Bleeding Gums Murphy
 
I've never found this to be the case. I couldn't tell from a band/artist's chosen take whether it was a first or 100th take.

So you were there for all 100 takes and know how they all sounded...???
It's got nothing to do with you not being able to tell...it's about what the performer feels...and let me tell you, when you get to about take 10...it's already feeling pretty tiresome. You may still get it "perfect" AFA the sound quality and the right notes...but the feelings are not the same on take 20-30-40.

Also...if the song keeps changing, parts get added/removed, new lyrics, etc...and the artists is basically writing the song as the takes are being done...that's something different than knowing the song and getting that exceptional take.
I'm not talking about learning your part while doing 20-30 takes, that's different...I'm talking about a performer knowing their part, and really getting that natural performance. Most singers will be done by take 5....many will not want to do more takes because they know their singing becomes more forced.
If it's backing tracks, it's not as critical with the takes...but lead vocals and lead instrument parts are more about feeling than technical perfection...but if you really know your parts, then the technical aspects is not being flushed out during tracking...so it's all about the feeling.

I'm sure there are dozens of takes that will sound good enough for the listener...but there are always those couple of really special ones, and generally they happen early on, which is something most engineers will agree on.
 
Last edited:
But then, there comes a point when the song has been done so many times that you don't have to think about the song anymore as it has become embedded into your brain, you can start playing with it without fear, and you regain life.

Right...and that has more to do with NOT knowing your song... and needing to beat on it until you do....and then you finally get past that "not knowing" to get back to where you should have been in the first place.
If you know your song, your parts...the first few takes have all the magic.

I think these days many people are actually learning their song and working out the parts while they do takes...and the DAW doesn't stop them from doing 100 takes.
Back in the day with the limitations of tape...people came into the studio to record, not to learn their songs and parts, so those first takes were about getting the feeling, and not as much about getting the part right.

How's that saying go...
"An amateur practices until he gets the part right...a professional practices until he can't get it wrong." :)
 
Back in the day with the limitations of tape...people came into the studio to record, not to learn their songs and parts, so those first takes were about getting the feeling, and not as much about getting the part right.

Well, yes and no. Sometimes they came to record and not learn song parts. And at other times they didn't. For example, The Beatles' earlier albums consisted of material they had well and truly played in, so they didn't come in and have to learn the songs. On the other hand, with their later albums, they were making it up as they went along, i.e. they were using the studio has a means of composing and recording. This was also the case with Fleetwood Mac and Tusk.
 
Well, yes and no. Sometimes they came to record and not learn song parts. And at other times they didn't. For example, The Beatles' earlier albums consisted of material they had well and truly played in, so they didn't come in and have to learn the songs. On the other hand, with their later albums, they were making it up as they went along, i.e. they were using the studio has a means of composing and recording. This was also the case with Fleetwood Mac and Tusk.

I wasn't trying to say that everyone back in the day came in with finished songs,...it was more about comparing the amount of "record ready" songs done in the past...VS...today when DAW's allow endless options, and songs are assembled piecemeal more times than not.

When you have a record-ready song and you've done all the pre-production and practice, you don't need 100 takes...and in those cases, the feeling of the first few passes often has the "fresh" magic so many have talked about. Maybe that feeling is rarely experienced these days because few people seem to come into a studio with record-ready songs...and I don't say that is necessarily a bad thing...I love to experiment even when I'm tracking to tape, and in my experience, I've noticed that after several takes, things start to get flat, even though my playing is becoming technically better.
In those times, I like to stop and take a break...walk away for an hour or two or even wait until the next day...and then I can come back better prepared and make better use of those first several takes.

I'm just saying that if you're use to doing 100 takes for every song, and assembling as you go...than take 1 may not seem much different than take 10 or take 100. It becomes a rudimentary "process" instead of an emotional release.
 
I'm still relatively new to this DAW stuff so am still in the mindset of getting it right the first time
For me, whether with tape or digitally, the aim has always been and will always be to get it right first time. I've recorded hundreds of times and I've got no idea what the percentage would be of times it's worked out that way to times that it hasn't. The idea of doing lots of takes fills me with horror and dread because I can't see the point. Even with the machine I have now with its 238 virtual tracks, I wryly smile at the blurb that talks about doing multiple takes.
But....sometimes, it doesn't work out first time so another take has to be done. But I don't keep the take that didn't work out. It's back to the start. Or, if it has been good up until then, I'll just cut in and continue from wherever the mistake was and join the two up. If it's the 6th minute of a 12 minute song and there's a mistake, I'm not going back to the start if it was good up until then. I used to do that but then I'd think, why chuck a good part for a replay that may not have some of what I liked about the take until the flub happened ? And I discovered that whoever was drumming and I would generally nail it once we continued.

I don't think there is a linear progression in either direction, i.e. 'the more takes the worse it gets' or 'the more takes the better it gets'. I think there is a curve involved. So, when starting off, the first few takes are often the best. From there on, things get worse, and it's a case of diminishing returns and a journey into lifelessness. But then, there comes a point when the song has been done so many times that you don't have to think about the song anymore as it has become embedded into your brain, you can start playing with it without fear, and you regain life.
I couldn't agree more. That's essentially the point I was making ~ it can work both ways. There isn't any hard and fast rule. There are variables ~ not least the actual persons doing the takes. Maybe they really enjoy the act of playing and give something different to each take. Or maybe they get bored after playing the song 5 times. Then suddenly the performance gains a new lease of life the 7th time, despite the players being tired.
 
So you were there for all 100 takes and know how they all sounded...???
How a performer feels about what goes out to the public and how the listener feels about a song they love have long been as different as the moon and a newspaper. There are zillions of interviews out there in which this or that artist will tell you how much they hate or are indifferent to or 'meh' about X track even if it sold millions or is much loved. So it's much of a muchness what the takes that weren't used sound like. It's irrelevant. Not knowing what 99 takes don't sound like is no proof that the 100th take has all the life drained out of it.
Your quote was absolute ¬>
Even if it seems perfect at take 20...the life has already gone out of it after about 5 takes. You're better off to stop and walk away from it for awhile if you want to keep going with more takes
I'm simply saying that I don't agree with that. I have experience with that both ways.
It's got nothing to do with you not being able to tell...it's about what the performer feels...and let me tell you, when you get to about take 10...it's already feeling pretty tiresome
Ah, but I wasn't disagreeing with that. I think almost anything that has to be repeated 10 times will feel tiresome. Actors in a movie often find themselves doing takes well over that. But to say that all the life has gone out of the performance that they do give is too absolute for me, for such an unknown. One can't possibly know beforehand.
You may still get it "perfect" AFA the sound quality and the right notes...but the feelings are not the same on take 20-30-40.
The feelings may not be the same on the 2nd take ! :D
Also...if the song keeps changing, parts get added/removed, new lyrics, etc...and the artists is basically writing the song as the takes are being done...that's something different than knowing the song and getting that exceptional take.
I agree with that but I specifically was not talking about writing as you go along. I was talking about the song being known and rehearsed and the bands {in the particular cases I referenced, the Beatles and the Stones} being in the studio with every intention of recording the song as is. I referenced the Stones' example to demonstrate that as one gets further into recording a song, it can take on a new lease of life and change. With the Beatles one, it didn't really change yet they needed 67 takes to get it right. Good musicians and singers give life to almost all their performances, or at least, they should if they're not being prima donnas. Sure, they'll grizzle and whinge about take 22 but a professional is a professional because they can do a job.
I'm not talking about learning your part while doing 20-30 takes
Nor was I.
getting that exceptional take....
...is sometimes a matter of opinion on which there can be great divergence in a studio setting.
I'm talking about a performer knowing their part, and really getting that natural performance. Most singers will be done by take 5....many will not want to do more takes because they know their singing becomes more forced.
I don't even know what a natural performance is. You've often spoken of comping your parts from several takes. Is that natural performance ? I do agree that the performer has different thoughts and feelings about their performance.....but how often in a studio has the performance of a musician or singer been what they regarded as natural or exceptional....but it wasn't what was required ?
Most singers will be done by take 5....
I don't know most singers. And out of 100 singers, 51 is most of them.....that still leaves 49.
If it's backing tracks, it's not as critical with the takes...but lead vocals and lead instrument parts are more about feeling than technical perfection...
I think that really depends on the vocalist or instrumentalist in question and the way their part meshes within the song. Sometimes, one wants things technically right but gets "feeling." Other times, one wants "feeling" but gets technical perfection.
But in saying that, "feeling" means different things at different times to different people.
I'm sure there are dozens of takes that will sound good enough for the listener...but there are always those couple of really special ones, and generally they happen early on, which is something most engineers will agree on
Thing is, I'd be surprised if artists go into the studio to record a song with the intention of doing 30 takes or 15 takes or 60 takes or 9 takes. One goes into the studio with the intention of getting what has to be done fairly quickly if possible unless the engineer's MO is to routinely comp from many takes. So it stands to reason that the aim is in getting good takes {some of which may be exceptional} down straight away if possible. When we talk about multiple takes, what is it that determines that a take has to be repeated ? If you've gotten that special take and it was early on, why the need to go on with more takes so that one ends up with "those couple of special takes" ?
 
Back in the day with the limitations of tape...people came into the studio to record, not to learn their songs and parts, so those first takes were about getting the feeling, and not as much about getting the part right.
Well, yes and no. Sometimes they came to record and not learn song parts. And at other times they didn't. For example, The Beatles' earlier albums consisted of material they had well and truly played in, so they didn't come in and have to learn the songs
Other than the Beatles' first album where they pretty much knew most of the songs and had been playing both the covers and originals, their MO in the studio didn't really change throughout their career as Beatles. Lennon and McCartney tended to have run the songs by each other if it wasn't one they'd jointly written and the first time Harrison and Starr would hear the songs to be recorded would be when they were actually in the studio. Even from "With the Beatles" in 1963 they were working things out in the studio. One of the things that makes George Harrison's guitar parts in songs like "And I love her" and the descending part in "Help !" so remarkable is that they were not part of the song when it was first presented to him. He worked them out as they recorded them and they weren't in some of the early takes. Looking through the log of their recording life, they used to do a ridiculous {to me} number of takes for each song, even in '63. The reason "Twist & shout" is so lionized is because it was recorded in only 2 takes and the first one is the one that was used.
They did demo some songs to each other before Revolver, the White album and Let it be but even then songs turned up in the studio that they had to learn.

If you know your song, your parts...the first few takes have all the magic.
They damn well should do !
I think these days many people are actually learning their song and working out the parts while they do takes...and the DAW doesn't stop them from doing 100
That was the gift of multitracking to the world. I've long observed that multitracking changed songwriting and composition forever in rock circles although this was not apparent until the mid '60s. Once it dawned on artists that they could overdub and change the entire structure and nature of an already recorded song, then writers were no longer under any compulsion to present fait accomplis. They could record the basics of a song without knowing what was going to fill it out. By 1966 the Beatles were recording the basic track without bass, not knowing what the bass part was going to be. Then they were leaving big gaps that were filled by they knew not what. Sometimes, it would be an orchestra, sometimes a sound effect, sometimes a particular instrument.
So that way of recording isn't something that came along with the DAW. It has been part of recording for far longer than it hasn't been. "Bohemian Rhapsody" had its various parts added as the recording progressed. When originally recorded, there was no big long middle operatic section as we came to know it.
Speaking personally, I don't see the point of keeping multiple takes unless one is specifically looking to comp and repair bits here and there. I know straight off if I'm happy with a take. If I'm not, then here we go again.
If you know your song, your parts...
In a way, many home recorders are at the mercy of a double whammy. Many of us don't record with whole bands together at home and many of us have time and neighbour constraints. By the same token, when we do sit down to record, we don't have financial constraints so the pressure is off. That affords us the space to take our time if need be.
It's also stretched the definition of 'song' to some extent. Paul McCartney used to say that songs couldn't be written on a bass guitar; I always disagreed with him and still do. Many of my songs, indeed, pretty much every song I wrote in the first 8 years of playing and writing, were written on a bass guitar. Now I write on bass, on guitar, or in my head. And it means that I can work out an entire 'song' and record it with a drummer/percussionist and worry about filling it out later. There are songs I recorded between 2009 and 2012 on bass/drums, guitar/drums, guitar/percussion that I haven't added to yet even though I've got all the instrument parts and lyrics saved in embryo on the computer. What is recorded is merely currently unfinished. But they are still songs. When I get around to finishing them, some of the overdubs will be done first take. Some might take several or multiple takes. Some will be in sections.
I'm grateful for multitrackers. They've been liberating for me as a songwriter, a below average instrumentalist and a so~so singer. They enable the possibly feeble parts to be transformed into a solid, attractive and cohesive whole.
 
Take 1 vs Take 100.... im on the fence. Take 1 has a energy vibe but is usually sloppy, maybe not even finished, where I agree most the time I re-do a song to fix it , im bored and dont even like it anymore.

i still have my "holy grail goal" of HR to be able to knock out a demo like McCartneys Come and Get It, done by himself in 60 minutes..John and Yoko listened with the Engineer....sparse but sounds great...and he was able to give it away to someone else to sell it.

so gear and the room, in addition to the talent in knocking it out in 60 minutes and move on to the next one...

Take 1 or Take 100.....energy + mistakes....or perfection and maybe robotic for the musician? Im a TAKE 8 vote I guess....
 
"There are no 'mistakes' in jazz or blues, merely opportunities"

Can't remember who said it...Django?

Dave.
 
Take 1 vs Take 100.... im on the fence. Take 1 has a energy vibe but is usually sloppy, maybe not even finished, where I agree most the time I re-do a song to fix it , im bored and dont even like it anymore.

Yes....that's kinda my point. I wouldn't go so far as to say take 1 is always sloppy...but it's about the energy and feeling that you get from those first few takes.
Doing 100 takes so you could finally get a take without any "mistakes", may get you to some kind of perfection, but the energy and feel is going to be different.
Maybe you can ride the wave and wait for it to crest again after many, many takes...and maybe by the 100th take you find that second wind and you are able to get that feeling and energy back...but why go through all that...?

If you know the song...you get the energy and feel in the first few takes, and maybe a few mistakes. It's so much easier to comp from 5 good takes to get a perfect one, instead of waiting for the 100th perfect one. :facepalm:

AFA what the Beatles were doing and all that...there was a point where they "got it" in the studio, and realized that they wanted to not just record the simple Pop songs, but to use the studio as a laboratory for experimentation...so in that regard, how many takes are/were done, is a totally different thing.
You can go with whatever the production needs...but there's no denying that often the first few takes have something that is quickly lost with endless repetition...and sometimes it can be recovered, but it can be a long process.

As the OP states...with some practice before attempting to track...he was able to nail it on the first take...which was my other point, practice and preparation allows you to capture that energy and feel along with a solid performance.
 
Last edited:
I agree with every body somewhat. The idea of doing a lot of takes does remove the spontaneity of a performance and can be counted as "practice" to me. On the other hand, lead breaks of any kind tend to be the most exciting when created and less so after many repetitions.

Vocals I find can go either way. Enough practice not to flub, but not so long as to cause voice issues, or lose the spontaneity.
 
Back
Top