Singer + Acoustic Guitar: How to comp/correct voice and guitar tracks afterward?

Primarily I write and record as a singer/guitarist.

I sing best while playing acoustic guitar, but I play the guitar better when not singing. So I need to go back and comp/correct both parts.

I record voice and guitar simultaneously onto separate tracks using two mics, but of course, each mic hears both sources, and that makes it impossible to comp/correct segments of either the voice or the guitar track. So I try recording the guitar part first and sing later with the guitar track, but then my vocal performance lacks intensity and immediacy.

Is there some better way of approaching this? Or is it just impossible and my only recourse is to learn to sing when not playing guitar?

Thanks
 
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Distance is a critical factor. You can keep the guitar pretty much out of the vocal mic if you use a mic designed for close use. Any of the handheld vocal type mics are possibilities, including some that are condensers. With lips on the grill you should get pretty good isolation. You may have to work on technique to minimize plosives and/or use a pop screen right up on the grill of the mic.
 
Other than what was suggested above, you could lay down your base guitar track until it is a keeper (record it with two mics for separation). Once you have the base, then while playing and singing, bring in the vocals. You will get some bleed from your playing, but your correction will only be required when you screw up that part.

You could take the first guitar session and pan each track slightly left and right (or if you use stereo, just get plug in that will let you determine the spread), then your vocal and guitar session can go up the middle. Could fatten the guitar up, give you options on how close you want vocals/guitar.

My two cents.
 
Thanks for the suggestions.

I want to avoid close-micing vocals, and even if I did, there's no way for me to mic acoustic guitar that would afford the kind of separation (vocal/guitar) to enable comping in bits and pieces of either the guitar or the vocal. There would always be obvious out-of-place sounds. So what I'll try next is:

1. Sing-and-play to a click track, two mics recording to two separate tracks - guitar and vocal.

2. Using those first tracks as a reference in my headphones, I'll play guitar along with the reference material. I'll mute the reference guitar track to minimize the guitar's presence in the headphone mix.

3. Using those first tracks as a reference in my headphones, I'll LEARN HOW TO sing with the reference material. I'll mute the reference voice track to minimize its presence in the headphone mix.

Who knows, it might work better than expected once I get the hang of it.
 
If you do live takes of both you could still fix a guitar part by replacing both tracks, as long as the vocal was good on the replacement. Any part of a take that has good guitar and vocals together is potentially usable.
 
If you do live takes of both you could still fix a guitar part by replacing both tracks, as long as the vocal was good on the replacement. Any part of a take that has good guitar and vocals together is potentially usable.
Point taken and thanks for following up, but "a good man knows his limitations." ~ Dirty Harry

I think I would play hell trying to work around the limitations. For now I've decided to try to learn to sing without the visceral/rhythmic aid of playing the guitar. And who knows, I might sing better as a result...
 
It is a hard transition, but be patient and I think you will like the results.
 
Thanks, and I am up for trying.

I thought of one other possible approach: Maybe when I'm tracking the vocal (listening to the initial reference tracks in head phones) I'll try playing a solid-body electric guitar, unplugged.

That might give me the "feel" I'm used to with almost no sound at all to be captured by the vocal mic... IN FACT, I THINK THAT MIGHT WORK WELL!

Thank you, guys. 'Funny how a little discussion can loosen up one's thinking.
 
Thanks, and I am up for trying.

I thought of one other possible approach: Maybe when I'm tracking the vocal (listening to the initial reference tracks in head phones) I'll try playing a solid-body electric guitar, unplugged.

That might give me the "feel" I'm used to with almost no sound at all to be captured by the vocal mic... IN FACT, I THINK THAT MIGHT WORK WELL!

Thank you, guys. 'Funny how a little discussion can loosen up one's thinking.
I'm afraid it probably won't work as well as you hope. Especially if you're going to be compressing that vocal much, you may be surprised at just how loud that electric guitar is going to come through.

You had it right the first time. Record scratch tracks with both at the same time, replace each separately. Get over the hang ups and get better at what you do.
 
Learn the skills is my advice. You might not want to, you might rationalise around it, it might feel uncomfortable for a while.

Do it anyway.
 
Learn the skills is my advice. You might not want to, you might rationalise around it, it might feel uncomfortable for a while.

Do it anyway.

See I go completely the other way. I say go with what you already know. You get a
Much better performance when you play and sing at the same time. I can't imagine why you would need to comp either the guitar or vocal on an acoustic performance . Just practice until you can get a solid take, then record it.
 
i've tried too many times to play acoustic while singing AND make a good sounding mix...it's very difficult and I don't have the proper facilities or equipment to do so. You'll undoubtedly get a better "feel" while doing both at the same time, but you will have some vocal sections here and there you wish you could redo without losing everything else. It'll happen. Nailing an entire song with every word emphasized and sang properly, and at consistent levels, is very hard to achieve. (i say this because compression while affect everything, you can't isolate your voice or a certain passage) If you use any corrective software for vocals, it could make the backing guitar sound of out whack as well. Also, you'll have to worry about the vocal level being consistent - you won't be able to manually edit those sections or the guitar will drop out. Even though you have a dedicated vocal and guitar mic, they are both picking up each instrument, and a slight change in volume in one will affect the overall volume. Throwing two things into one track is making life more difficult. Can you do it? Sure. After many takes. But then that "feel" goes away anyway.

I used to think I sang better while playing. That is, until I learned some "tricks" that helped me get more comfortable behind the mic while just standing there. These are things I have done, YRMV:

-find the right reference volume. need good isolation phones so it doesn't bleed into mic, but crank that sh%t until you can get that same feeling. Too quiet and I can't get the right inflection, but too loud and I can't hear myself sing. find a good balance between your incoming guitar track and your own voice.

-add some reverb to the vocal track while singing. it's annoying and unconvincing to hear your own dead-sounding voice in your headphones. Adding the verb to the tracking will help with the "vibe" you're after.

-sometimes it helps to take one phone off the ear and keep the other on. When I do this, I can hear myself naturally plus with the processing. My best takes usually come from these tracks combined with the next point...

-...singing a double, even if it's for a single take section. So, i'll sing a good scratch take and then listen to that in my reference phones while I sing the "real" part. This is the key for me. Not sure why, but psychologically it helps relax me while singing and feel more confident in hitting the right notes.

Hope something here helps. good luck
 
I'm afraid it probably won't work as well as you hope. Especially if you're going to be compressing that vocal much, you may be surprised at just how loud that electric guitar is going to come through. [...] Get over the hang ups and get better at what you do.
I'll try electric guitar unplugged anyway, but I'm pretty sure you'll be right in the end (dammit). And thanks for the TuffLuv last sentence. :D
 
...you will have some vocal sections here and there you wish you could redo without losing everything else.

...compression affect[ing] everything, you can't isolate your voice or a certain passage

...If you use any corrective software for vocals it could make the backing guitar sound of out whack as well. Also, you'll have to worry about the vocal level being consistent - you won't be able to manually edit those sections or the guitar will drop out.

...dedicated vocal and guitar mics, both are picking up both instruments, and a slight change in volume in one will affect the overall volume.

...Throwing two things into one track is making life more difficult. Can you do it? Sure. After many takes. But then that "feel" goes away anyway.


I learned some "tricks" that helped me get more comfortable behind the mic while just standing there:

1. Find the right reference volume. Too quiet and I can't get the right inflection, but too loud and I can't hear myself sing.

2. Add some reverb to the vocal track while singing. Adding the verb to the tracking will help with the "vibe" you're after.

3. Sometimes it helps to take one phone off the ear and keep the other on. When I do this, I can hear myself naturally plus with the processing. My best takes usually come from these tracks combined with the next point...

4. Singing a double, even if it's for a single take section. So, i'll sing a good scratch take and then listen to that in my reference phones while I sing the "real" part. This is the key for me. Not sure why, but psychologically it helps relax me while singing and feel more confident in hitting the right notes.​

EXCELLENT POST! Thanks a lot. Clearly you understand the problems, and your suggestions are DEAD ON.
 
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EXCELLENT POST! Thanks a lot. Clearly you understand the problems, and your suggestions are DEAD ON.

Don't agree with the advice at all. A great live performance acoustic and vocal shouldn't need any editing at all. Practice until you get it right. Vocal bleed isn't going to matter one bit of the performance is good.

Chuck
 
Don't agree with the advice at all. A great live performance acoustic and vocal shouldn't need any editing at all. Practice until you get it right. Vocal bleed isn't going to matter one bit of the performance is good.
Hey, Chuck ==
I intended to reply to your previous post, but failed to do so. Sorry. My intended reply to that earlier post is the same as my reply to this one:

Just do it PERFECTLY! Why didn't I think of that?! :facepalm:

'Get my point? One of the Rules of Thumb around which I live my life was famously stated by Harry Callahan (Clint Eastwood) in the movie "Dirty Harry": A good man knows his limitations.

If I could do ANY of this perfectly, with reasonable consistency, I wouldn't own several thousand dollars worth of dedicated digital recording equipment. And the fact that my DAW can comp bits and pieces together in ways that we never imagined back when I was seriously pursuing a career in music has not made me lazy...but instead has shown me new, better and far less stressful ways of making music.

So I appreciate your point of view and I do take your point, but I intend to "comp and correct" and perhaps find more creative ways of presenting my songs than killing myself trying to perfect 'Me and My Guitar'. My limitations combined with my desire to capitalize upon these vast DAW capabilities mean I really must separate guitar and vocal parts entirely.
 
Hey, Chuck ==
I intended to reply to your previous post, but failed to do so. Sorry. My intended reply to that earlier post is the same as my reply to this one:

Just do it PERFECTLY! Why didn't I think of that?! :facepalm:

'Get my point? One of the Rules of Thumb around which I live my life was famously stated by Harry Callahan (Clint Eastwood) in the movie "Dirty Harry": A good man knows his limitations.

If I could do ANY of this perfectly, with reasonable consistency, I wouldn't own several thousand dollars worth of dedicated digital recording equipment. And the fact that my DAW can comp bits and pieces together in ways that we never imagined back when I was seriously pursuing a career in music has not made me lazy...but instead has shown me new, better and far less stressful ways of making music.

So I appreciate your point of view and I do take your point, but I intend to "comp and correct" and perhaps find more creative ways of presenting my songs than killing myself trying to perfect 'Me and My Guitar'. My limitations combined with my desire to capitalize upon these vast DAW capabilities mean I really must separate guitar and vocal parts entirely.

To each his own, and there are obviously plenty of people who agree with you. Carry on :-)
 
I mean, you could try recording two or three takes in a row (so all the mic placements are the same and whatever) and just hope you don't fuck up in the same place twice. Then you can comp both instruments at the same time, rather than fixing just one or the other. Still doesn't help with the problems bleed will give you trying to add compression or other processing, though.
 
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