Recording a Symphonic Orchestra

MaxB

New member
Just for curiosity... I would like to know if anyone have experience with symphonic orchestra recordings... I'm talking about live events. What kind of microphones are required? Where they're positioned? How much mics? And then: such a recording it's a 2 track or multitrack session??

I would like to know also about non-live orchestral style recordings, for example Vangelis - Mythodea...

MaxB
 
Hey Max,

I'm certain someone here can help you out far more than I'll be able to, BUT I used to work for a 3500 seat opera house that would have dress rehersals recorded for NPR type broadcast...

All I ever saw them use were a few (Can't remember how many, maybe just two) "Pencil" type condensors (I don't know what they were exactally) in the pit (I believe one was near and above the bass drum and percussion and the other near the string sections), then two on stands how about mid house (like 40 feet from the pit) on the main floor and like 7 or 8 feet high into just a little Mackie 8 channel mixer.
I never recall seeing the engineer with more than maybe a 10 space rack, so he likely had a few DAT machines.

The broadcast recordings (Of course) weren't anything like a studio, but they were great in their own live capture way.

Sorry I couldn't offer any specifics.

:)
 
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My favorite was always a Decca Tree, with a few spot mics as needed. You start by listening to a rehearsal (just listening) and think about what you think will need to be spotted, generally soloists and quiet instruments. Next, you record a rehearsal, using your Decca Tree and the spots you believed you would need. Listen back, and find out where you are week, where you are strong, and figure out how to fix it. I like to listen to this with the conductor, if he is willing, so he can give me input as to what he is concerned about (remember, it is his artistic vision, which is why he is called maestro). If you want to find out more about the Decca Tree, look HERE.

In a Pops type situation, it is common to mic every section, in addition to a Decca Tree (or other primary mic setups), with each of the string sections miced, and frequently each woodwind instrument or pair of woodwind instruments mic individually.

Just what worked for me, but I have not done any of that kind of work for years now.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Billy and Light: thank you for your replys, I really appreciated.
I found very interesting the Decca Tree method.

Thanks!!
 
I record symphonies quite often

While they are semi-professional orchestras, I have ended up with some fine recordings.

To capture the Orchestra proper I prefer the ORTF method over the Decca tree. I have tried both, it's a personal taste kind of thing. Plus it is very simple to run.

If they are having a soloist it is nice to have an extra mic place near him/her.

I use small diaphram condensers for the ORTF pair. They have a very nice, flat response. I used to put out spot mics, but have found I seldom add them to the mix. I like recordings that accurately represent what the conductor hears.
 
Re: Re: I record symphonies quite often

MaxB said:
Duh? Can you explain the ORTF method, please?

Sure,

This technique uses two cardioid microphones spaced 17cm between elements, angled outwards at 110 degrees. This technique often gives a greater sense of space than coincident techniques due to the microphones being ear spaced and thus capturing phase information as well as intensity information.

Its main advantage, since it uses cardioids, the microphones can be placed further back from the source without capturing too much of the reverberation that most other techniques do. This often makes for a better blended balance than techniques requiring the microphones be a little closer. Also, the use of cardioids enables you to use it in over reverberant acoustic areas where other techniques would capture too much of the reverberations.

I find for symphonies, placing the mics 8 to 10' up and about 3' behind the conductor gives you a very accurate spacial sound of the orchestra. Basically, you are recording what the conductor hears, which is the optimum sound.
 
Just to chime in. I've recorded a few top notch symphonies in a performance. I used a DAT machine and a pair of 4033's. I find that with decent mics and a great sounding house it is almost impossible to get a bad recording. I put the mics about 10 feet up and about 10 feet apart and really liked the results.

Sloop. Did you have any balance issues front to back? For example did the french horns or small percussion get at all buried by the strings. (maybe on louder passages?)
 
No, the height seem to be the key to this

dean1964 said:
Just to chime in. I've recorded a few top notch symphonies in a performance. I used a DAT machine and a pair of 4033's. I find that with decent mics and a great sounding house it is almost impossible to get a bad recording. I put the mics about 10 feet up and about 10 feet apart and really liked the results.

Sloop. Did you have any balance issues front to back? For example did the french horns or small percussion get at all buried by the strings. (maybe on louder passages?)

By having the mics above the rest of the orchestra, the French horns etc come through very cleanly. If they are a bit short on french horns for a piece, we place a table on its side behind them to reflect their sound out.
Percussion has never been a problem. Everything comes through cleanly. The only thing that occasionally will get buried is the harp. When that happens, the audience can't hear it either. Harp player tend to play a bit timidly. By having good mics near the conductor--what he hears is what the mics pick up.
 
MaxB said:
The Decca Tree and ORTF Methods can be used for choir recordings too?

Yes, on small choirs in not so big rooms you might have great results with NOS too.

You can find details of most stereo mic placements on the link that light has posted. (the DPA website, microphone university).

Try this: put a pair of SD condensers (small diapragm) in an ORTF placement outside, in the garden for example.

Lead the mic wires into your house, studio or whatever you call the place.

Connect the mic cables to a decent console, mic pre or whatever you like to use and pan them hard left right.

Put on some decent cans (headphones) like Sennheiser HD600.

Close your eyes and listen very carefully to the sound you hear, especially to the stereo image.

It feels like you are standing outside your place.

IMHO an ORTF placement gives a very realistic stereo image.

Some think that by putting two mics somewhere, they are recording stereo, but stereo techniques is another cup of tea (or do you prefer the Grolla?)
 
Well, I have recorded a string orchestra about 25 people in a small church with some not-to-very-othodox mic arrangement.
Main mics 2xAKG 414 omni AB placement 1m distant about 3m height at the distance of the conductor. Third mic AKG cardioid C1000S between them somewhat lower. Fourth and fifth mics were Neumanns KM184 positioned middle first and second violin sections about 2m height aimed down. Next mic C1000 captured cellos and the last Shure SM57 the bass.

This seven signals were recorded separatedly in my DAW by multitrack Cool Edit 1.2 and then mixed to taste.

Result is on my web site www.alfors.com . I appologize, all is under construction, just click on enlish flag, then "the samples" and then go in the list to the row contained "Turnovské orchestrální sdružení". Sorry for the unwanted lesson in czech :).

Because I mostly record live choirs and small vocal groups I have enough room to experiment with various stereo capturing methods. Once, just for comparison I have recorded vocal group simultaneously with three methods on one stand. Namely M-S (2x414), XY (2xC1000) and ORTF (2xKM184). Hearing the result with my friend which has very good ears we came to the concusion, that in the first place the art of used mics determined the result, the method was second.

adamo
 
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