recording singer-songwriter

jamie_drum

New member
I am trying to record acoustic guitar and vocals from the same performer. I have a Rode NT1-A for the vocals and a Audio Technica AT3032 (omni) for the guitar. The problem is excessively bleed of one "instrument" into the other's mics. I am unsure if there are phase problems too.

Any suggestions re mic placement / recording techniques.

Thanks
 
With an Omni on the guitar, there's not much you can do to keep the vocal out of it. Keep in mind also that with an omni, the acoustics of the recording space really become part of the recording, to a larger extent than a more directional mic.
Use the null of the NT1-A' polar pattern to try to minimize guitar bleed into the vocal track.
 
I've never been able to solve this kind of thing, myself. I've even tried a couple of hyper-cardioid mics and still couldn't get rid of all the bleed-over. I finally just stopped playing and singing at the same time. I record the guitar first, then the vocal on a completely separate track. Works for me.
 
Use dynamic mics, with condensers bleed will always be an issue. The same will be true of all mics but if you use dynamics i believe it will be alot better. I would suggest something like a beyer 201 for guitar because of its Hypercardioid pattern.
Bleed is always going to be present, you just have to live and learn to work with it. Listen to some of the tracks on my sounclick page, they were all tracked 'live' and all tracks had bleed on them, down to my use of Dynamic mics and placement i was able to minimise this.
 
Figure-8 mics are your friend! Also, try to get a good balance between the voice and guitar with just one microphone. It can be done!
 
jamie_drum said:
By the way, can you explain how to do this?

With a cardiod side address mic, it's simply the opposite side of the grill from the address side. Try mounting the mic sideways, rotated so that the address side is pointing mostly upwards, maybe a 60 deg angle. Most guitarist/vocalists like to sing down so they can see the gtr neck. Experiment with the angle for the best combination of isolation and off axis coloration.
This is assuming that isolation for the guitar track is already a lost cause because of the omni. Speaking of that, omnis have virtually no proximity effect (boosted bass with close micing), so the best approach to get less vocal, more guitar in that mic is probably to move it in close.
Spend some time on optimizing this mic placement. It's probably a good idea to make some test takes of various positions, keeping notes, and then have the artist listen and pick with you the combination that sounds best for that room, that guitar, that vocalist.
 
I'd try simply making a 90degree stereo-pair of the micks adn turn it vertical, then just experiment with placing, mainly the height... hairbrain enough to work?? .. I'm under impression 90degrees are less prone to phasing issues at least..... :confused:
 
Maybe I'm overlooking something, but couldn't you record the guitar first and then go back and record the vocals?
 
nah they couldnt record separatly.

its a singer songwriter thing that engineers will never understand.
 
what's wrong with a little bleed?

still...you can record a scratch of both...and then overdub separately and cut the scratch. viola!

(typo intended)
 
TragikRemix said:
nah they couldnt record separatly.

its a singer songwriter thing that engineers will never understand.

This is true. Unless you are BOTH :eek:

When I'm recording, I record a scratch guitar to a metronome. Its a pain in the ass, but the only way I can keep near-perfect timing so overdubs don't becaome a guessing came of when speed-ups and slow-downs are coming.

Then, overdub a proper acoustic part, and then the vocals. It sucks, but if I just go for vocals & guitar, the timing is always at least slightly off, and overdubs become rather annoying, and sound out of place.

If you are really just looking to record someone's vocals and a lone guitar? THen I guess those little timing fluctuations don't really matter... but then ya gotta worry about bleed, and we've come full-circle back to the problem :)
 
What's the problem with "bleed"? If you're sitting there playing your guitar and singing, and I'm sitting five feet away from you, all I hear is "bleed". And it sounds great.

Set up a vertically oriented coincident pair if you're worried about bleed; use the "bleed" as a natural part of a vertical stereo image, panning the top (mostly vocal) mic a bit riight and the bottom (mostly guitar) mic a bit left. if you wanted to get really funky, try a horizontal Jecklin disc.

Otherwise, don't worry about it. Just get one good take all the way through so you don't have to worry about punches, and let the bleed be the bleed.

G.
 
You can get good results with even one mic if you put it in the right spot. In an untreated room this can be a little more difficult but definitely not impossible.

When using two mics just get mic position/gain levels right for each mic so you don't really have to do much to the tracks afterwards as far as levels go. Forget about bleed.

And if you want, monitor it in mono to make sure it doesn't sound like assholes. I personally setup the mics in mono to get it to sound good. Then when I hit the stereo switch it sounds great.

Much easier if you have someone to setup the mics for you.
 
But something tells me he doesn't have the facilities necessary to get a decent sound with just one mic. That would have to be a rather nice room... at least theones in my apartment wouldn't accomodate such a thing... stupid boxy crap!

:)
 
This is another one of those topics that pops up every few months, so do a search. What I've always said about this is to think less about seperation recording in this case, and aim to capture what the singer/songwriter/guitarist is trying to convey - a realtime organic performance, where the acoustical interactions of the guitar, the voice, and the surrounding space are what you are trying to capture.
 
i like how every ones advice is basically
"suck less, asshole"

but we all know what a pain in the ass this is.
when the vox bleed is too loud in the guitar mic you
A. can't control the mix
B. end up with seriously problematic phasing
C. can only correct with a complete retrack, no punches on either track are possible.
D. can't eq one track without changing the total sound of the mix.
E. cannot auto tune or the like.

if you can get the recording you want with one mic in the room (or a pair or whatever), more power to you.
but the reality is that that's not always the situation
you need to work with different polar patterns to minimize the bleed (which will never fully go away, the point is to make it little enough as to be ok)
figure 8 patterns were mentioned, a pair of mics with a fig 8 pattern will help a lot
the SP B3 is about 150 and has a fig 8. check it out.
 
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