Recording Heavy Metal Guitars?

This is my problem with you. I have heard more SM58's than you can imagine. YES they all sound like SM58's. No they ALL are not the same and in MOST CASES the differences will be subtle. It is a mic that boasts particular characteristics and are fairly consistent from mic to mic. That's why they are still prevalent in a lot of sound company toolboxes and studios. I can expect them to behave as they do.

I don't want to have to prove the differences, which are minute, to you or anyone who doesn't have the ears to hear the differences in the first place. Why do you need this to be this way? What are you needing proof of?

I'm sure your SM58 does a fine job of capturing whatever you put in front of it and the chances are great that ANOTHER SM58 would do the same task. One is not better than another. If one is not functioning and another is, then that is a different story......

My point about my use of particular SM57/58's for specific tasks is based on THOUSANDS of hours in front of a set of monitors in all sorts of studios, garages, live venues, houses of worship, outdoor cafes, festival stages, more studios, my studio etc etc.....and hearing these particular mics I own in action. Nothing more nothing less.

Are they "better" than others of the same build, manufacturer, age, etc etc....My opinion only can encompass what I have heard and have used and have owned. Which is a lot.

So to put this baby to bed......Here's my statement about mics of the same design and manufacturer: With a Shure SM57/58 you can EXPECT a certain type of frequency response and sensitivity based on the design and the manufacturer's quality control.

Don't worry about someone else having a "better" Sm58. The odd ones are few and far between. I just happen have one. It sounds as good on certain sources as some of my Neumanns.
 
It is my opinion that Sevenths Sons DSL sounds fine as any other DSL..

There are techniques that should give those recordings more gain. I like the levels on 10 idea. Also phasing doubles tracks increasing the signal which could be useful for what he is trying to accomplish.
 
LazerBeakShiek said:
Why that phase doubles tracks increasing the signal which could be useful for what he is trying to accomplish.
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Oh dear. It seems we're confusing the shit out of him.


Dude, keep it all at +4. Unless it's your MP3 player.


Sounds like you have a broken cable or something.
 
LazerBeakShiek said:
It is my opinion that Sevenths Sons DSL sounds fine as any other DSL..

There are techniques that should give those recordings more gain. I like the levels on 10 idea. Also phasing doubles tracks increasing the signal which could be useful for what he is trying to accomplish.
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Thank you. Yes, I think I've pretty much figured it out. Listening to some sample tracks I recorded with amp's volume at 3, 7, 8, and 10 makes it obvious that the amp doesn't sound right until volume is on 10. Once that is taken care of (easier said than done in an apartment building), I can get some really great, thick close miked tones that, in terms of overall quality, come pretty close to something like Maiden's guitar tracks on "Infinite Dreams" and "Seventh Son of a Seventh Son," for example. If I want something more along the lines of the Piece of Mind album, then close-miking and room-miking is the way to go, while also carefully positioning the mics to minimize phasing issues. Else, close-miking sounds great, nice and saturated, but as long as the amp is fully cranked.

Below are the four close-miked tracks I recorded with the different volumes to support my findings about my DSL15C's volume and tone. All amp's EQ was at noon. I used a closed-back MX112 with a Vintage 30 to record the tracks.
DSL15C SM57 grille cap edge Vol = 3 by Seventh Son | Free Listening on SoundCloud
DSL15C SM57 grille cap edge Vol = 7 by Seventh Son | Free Listening on SoundCloud
DSL15C SM57 grille cap edge Vol = 8 by Seventh Son | Free Listening on SoundCloud
DSL15C SM57 grille cap edge Vol = 10 by Seventh Son | Free Listening on SoundCloud
 
I wonder how an attenuator would react with the 15C. I picked up a Bugera PS1 Power Soak this weekend that seems to work quite well. The speaker excursion is no doubt part of the sound, but Marshalls in general seem to hit their stride when cranked. The Bugera allows me to open up my SV20 but tame it back down to more neighbour friendly levels without killing too much of the sound. For comparison I also have a Marshall Power Brake which works well on the first few clicks but gets mushy and compressed if you step on it too hard. The Bugera seems to work much better. I'd also like to try the Weber Mini Mass. I've heard good things about the Weber.
 
snow lizard said:
I wonder how an attenuator would react with the 15C. I picked up a Bugera PS1 Power Soak this weekend that seems to work quite well. The speaker excursion is no doubt part of the sound, but Marshalls in general seem to hit their stride when cranked. The Bugera allows me to open up my SV20 but tame it back down to more neighbour friendly levels without killing too much of the sound. For comparison I also have a Marshall Power Brake which works well on the first few clicks but gets mushy and compressed if you step on it too hard. The Bugera seems to work much better. I'd also like to try the Weber Mini Mass. I've heard good things about the Weber.
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The DSLs compress a lot when fully cranked, but that's the only way to get them to thicken the tone without doing mods, inserting EQ pedals, etc.

The video below is a great example how easily the JVM-1 at the beginning of the video, for example, pulls of a classic metal tone with a great midrange, whereas the DSL15C, which I have, and the DSL40C (another very popular amp), sound extremely scooped.
YouTube
YouTube
 
I could only watch up to about 5 min in. Yeah right. 1 x SM57 at that placement does not sound like that...Bull mother F'n shit!

Whats the db level at that distance and settings? What is the SPL of the SM57? Why couldnt they hold up a cel phone in the video and show the room db on an app? Takes 2 seconds. If you are making instructional videos include as much information as possible.
 
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This to me shows the total pointlessness of playing an instrument into an amp, then recording it with a microphone. If the point is to record the most appropriate tone for the track, then that works, but as for letting you know what the amps sounds like for real? Forget it. We get two separate setups, but the amps are not the same. Not the same volume, in dBs and not the same volume in cabinet capacity, all of which mean that the same mic produces different results. A phone in the room with dBs showing on it doesn't help because it tells us at that point, there is X dB. Maybe six inches to the left, where your ear might be it is higher or lower, we don't know.

All these clips and videos here are an eq knob turn's away from each other. They're totally subjective and pointless.

I'm sure we've all done a recording in the morning and tried to overdub in the afternoon to fix a problem and discovered that they don't match. Something changed - the guitar or other instrument? The player playing differently, the monitor mix, the studio monitor volume - strings, reeds or lips - who knows? The only way I could choose between those two Marshalls would be by being in the room, moving and listening. Five minutes and I could make a choice. I cannot make the decision on a recording of them. They sound different, but that could be ANY or ALL of the components.

As for microphones - my oldest and newest SM57s have 45 years between them. They sound similar, but not the same.However, one on the centre of a guitar speaker cone, and the other on the edge could be hugely different, or pretty close depending on which way around you selected them. Turning up a cab definately changes the sound. Capturing that 'extra speciallness' needs skill.
 
rob aylestone said:
This to me shows the total pointlessness of playing an instrument into an amp, then recording it with a microphone. If the point is to record the most appropriate tone for the track, then that works, but as for letting you know what the amps sounds like for real? Forget it. We get two separate setups, but the amps are not the same. Not the same volume, in dBs and not the same volume in cabinet capacity, all of which mean that the same mic produces different results. A phone in the room with dBs showing on it doesn't help because it tells us at that point, there is X dB. Maybe six inches to the left, where your ear might be it is higher or lower, we don't know.

All these clips and videos here are an eq knob turn's away from each other. They're totally subjective and pointless.

I'm sure we've all done a recording in the morning and tried to overdub in the afternoon to fix a problem and discovered that they don't match. Something changed - the guitar or other instrument? The player playing differently, the monitor mix, the studio monitor volume - strings, reeds or lips - who knows? The only way I could choose between those two Marshalls would be by being in the room, moving and listening. Five minutes and I could make a choice. I cannot make the decision on a recording of them. They sound different, but that could be ANY or ALL of the components.

As for microphones - my oldest and newest SM57s have 45 years between them. They sound similar, but not the same.However, one on the centre of a guitar speaker cone, and the other on the edge could be hugely different, or pretty close depending on which way around you selected them. Turning up a cab definately changes the sound. Capturing that 'extra speciallness' needs skill.
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Since I experiment at home with recording heavy guitars, I find the video demos above very useful. As an owner of a DSL15C, I know what the amp sounds like on close-miked recordings and can tell you that all the videos I've watched on YouTube are a pretty faithful representation of the amp's overall sound: very rich in bass, treble, presence, and a scooped midrange. It's a very modern sound, difficult to make poke through a typical rock mix. I don't have any complaints about how they sound in the room, but for recording, it's a different matter. It is good, however, to know what the amps are capable off. That way the results are easier to accept and live with.
 
I didn't get that at all - this I think is the problem. You know what you are hearing is the amp because you've heard one. I have not, and didn't pick that up at all from a recording. You say you don't have any complaints live, but the recording is a different matter? I've only heard the recording and it left me frankly unimpressed as to anything magic going on?
 
The db measurement at the mics location is a valid tool.

So you can replicate that clips DSL sound with your SM57 using those settings? Around 6min in..The video is not fizzy at all.
 
A valid tool to tell the volume in the room, yes? Quite agree. as for 6mins in?? You only listened for five - I got not further but I never said I can do ANYTHING with my 57 in these corcumstances. I didn't say fizzy either. Where do you dream up unasked questions and statements? My only point is that I do not have magic ears. I can just hear tonal differences. Nothing whatsoever special or mouthdropping. If I move a mic on a cabinet and make the sound different in a way that is positive, to me, thats just like a gentle EQ tweak, or the difference new strings make sometimes, but not always. The room volume in dB wouldn't help me assess very much at all - just volume. A measurement with little purpose. Sometimes, you just want two guitars that sound different. Plenty of ways to do it, and everyone has favourites
 
rob aylestone said:
The room volume in dB wouldn't help me assess very much at all - just volume. A measurement with little purpose.
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Perhaps you are line in direct.

If someone wanted to duplicate the videos sound it would be essential information. In duplication you wouldnt best guess, but instead use a tool measure and copy. Specially if you claim variance DSL to DSL.

If they measure the point of the SM57 mic at suppose 88 db, Then you could use those DSL settings turn it up to 88 db and hit record. It should sound pretty close. Its better starting point than licking your thumb.

Looking around trying to find what equipment was used on the Piece of Mind album. I cannot find a picture of them in the studio. Should be easy to find with Bruce Dickinson.

SEventh son had claimed fizzy in some earlier post. Not from nowhere.

Then I had asked about the mic signal chain , if it stays +4. This is important for this type of issue.

If you go -10 to +4 the audio will get hissy. If you try and go +4 to -10 the audio will sound distorted.
 
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LazerBeakShiek said:
The db measurement at the mics location is a valid tool.

So you can replicate that clips DSL sound with your SM57 using those settings? Around 6min in..The video is not fizzy at all.
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It's interesting that you do not find the video fizzy around the 6:00 minute mark. Compared to the JVM-1 clip I posted in the same post on the previous page, I think both the DSL in the second video have inherently too much bass and high end, and not enough midrange. I will definitely try to replicate the video. I am positive that it will be easy to do. Will let you know soon how it turned out.
 
Solve the problem. My issue was not setting amp volume loud enough on my DSL15C, which doesn't start to thicken up until channel volume is on 8 on the Ultra Gain channel. With that adjustment made, my EQ settings ended up pretty standard. The extra volume helped tighten up the bass, smooth out the top, which removed the fizz, and add thickness and punch.
Bass 4
Middle 5
Treble 6
Presence 4
Gain 4
Volume 8

The mic placement also ended up being pretty straight-forward. On-axis, 1 inch off the grille, pointed exactly at the cap edge. Due to close-miking technique employed, the resulting sound ended sounding a bit more modern than I was going for, but it's a good close-miked sound, which is all that matters.
 
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Seventh Son said:
Solve the problem. My issue was having too much bass dialed in on my DSL15C. The DSLs come with a lot of bass on tap. I used the following settings and got great midrange on the recording.
Bass 0
Middle 5
Treble 5
Presence 3
Gain 3

The mic was placed halfway between center and edge of speaker, an inch off the grille. I got an even better tone decreasing Middle to 4 and upping Treble to 6 for a little more bite in the upper mids. Further improvements could be made by backing the mic off maybe an extra inch, just to round out the highs a little more and reduce the bass from the proximity effect even more for a tighter bottom end.
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Where in the room do you place the amp?
 
A little curious about this myself. How to use the wall? The closer I put my cabinet , the louder it gets. If I place it backs to the wall I get a bass boost with thumps.
 
LazerBeakShiek said:
A little curious about this myself. How to use the wall? The closer I put my cabinet , the louder it gets. If I place it backs to the wall I get a bass boost with thumps.
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Ooo! You DO need to do some reading! 'Wall effects' have always been with us.

Dave.
 
It was near a wall, yes, if that is what you are getting at, but I was using a closed-back cab. And, believe me, before switching to using an MX112 closed-back for recording, I tried every other placement. From on the ground, to off the ground, to angled in relation to walls, in the bathroom, in the kitchen, almost 5 feet above ground, and more. Did not make a significant difference. However, I now know why that was the case. I did not drive the amp hard enough. After I tried recording at very high volume settings, I noticed that once amp volume was on 8 or higher, the amp not only started thickening and smoothing out the top end harshness, but it also compressing everything. What I previously perceived as loose, muddy bass or excessive proximity effect, was not compressed and converted in tighter bass and a warmer tone. The resulting recorded tracks had much more midrange and warmth, and they were so good that I think they would sit well in any mix without the need for much post-processing.
 
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