Recording Heavy Metal Guitars?

I listened to all three tracks. I have one word. Phase. Don't understand how phase affects two separate sources? Research. Johnathan Little is a good place to start to understand what phase does to signals. Most people will try and add and subtract with EQ, compress, gate, slapping a distortion device across one or both of the sources.....All this does is add more phase anomalies to the problem. Which doesn't solve the original need.

When you begin to understand how phase and the control of phase affects your recordings, you will never again have to rely on stacks of plug-ins on a track just to get it to "sit" or to sound like it should. You will make cleaner and clearer recordings of even the dirtiest slamming guitar sounds imaginable and your CPU usage will be at a minimum.....which (if your daw needs support) will also provide a clearer representation of the tracks.

When you really start to "get it" you will begin to use EQ as a tone shaper NOT a repair tool and the compression added to a track will be clearer and you will find less of it is needed as it also becomes a shaper NOT a repair tool.
 
Phase?

Really?

Like the polarity phase button. You got 2 settings normal and invertered? If I press it that does not significantly change the sound.

I can run another signal out of phase with the original to cancel feedback when playing live. It does not change the sound.

If you go in the MP3 forum people are sharing clips and songs. The ones that have real tight guitars are using IR loaders. That will definitely make a difference you will hear instantly. The cabinet response is added to your signal.
 
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Phase?

Really?

Like the polarity phase button. You got 2 settings normal and invertered? If I press it that does not significantly change the sound..
That is a polarity button. Phase is something different. In this case, it is a timing difference between two mics on the same source. Zoom in on the waveforms and you will see the distant mic starts later than the close mic. If you line up those two tracks, it will sound less hollow and, well, phasey.
 
LazerBeakShiek said:
Phase?

Really?

Like the polarity phase button. You got 2 settings normal and invertered? If I press it that does not significantly change the sound.

I can run another signal out of phase with the original to cancel feedback when playing live. It does not change the sound.


Actually if you take a mono track in your DAW and copy it and then flip the polarity (180 degrees out of phase) on one track and then sum the 2 tracks together at equal levels they will cancel each other out. Silence.

What happens when you use 2 microphones on a source (A/B stereo mic technique for example) is that the arrival times of the signals to each mic will partially cancel at some frequencies. You can minimize this with careful mic placement. You can flip the polarity with the phase button as a check to see what happens. If you suddenly get more or less bottom in one position or the other, there you go. You can either leave it like that if it gets rid of the problem or tweak the mic position to bring them closer in phase.

EQ filters and other types of processing work by messing with phase. It's not a bad idea to research the topic, play with it to learn exactly what "out of phase" sounds like, and then become allergic to that sound.
 
Ok, doubling and nudging. Noted. Clarity is crystal. Yes you can slide the 2nd or dup track and phase to thicken. Totally different.

Little John the search is on!
 
Phase?

Really?

Like the polarity phase button. You got 2 settings normal and invertered? If I press it that does not significantly change the sound.

I can run another signal out of phase with the original to cancel feedback when playing live. It does not change the sound.

If you go in the MP3 forum people are sharing clips and songs. The ones that have real tight guitars are using IR loaders. That will definitely make a difference you will hear instantly. The cabinet response is added to your signal.

You really don't understand what I'm talking about. Most multiple mic situations are out of phase as well as out of time as Jay suggested. MOST if not ALL are less than 90 degrees out of phase and flipping polarity is not the way to fix it. Phase is something that isn't talked about much because there are so many devices and tricks to cover up the problem and most do so at the expense of what could be a fine capture that winds up being a mess covering up another mess.

It is something to seriously study and not just dismiss as ramblings by some old recording geezer. You want it right? The basics are there to be had by anyone. This is a basic.

I will relate this story quickly.....I was doing some work many years ago in a studio run by an old guy who had been in business for 30+ years. This was in the 70's so that gives you an idea. He recorded everything that walked in the door, children's books to heavy rock and all in-between. MCI 2" tape.....Very early console he built (he was an EE).....lot's of what would now be vintage Neumann's and Telefunkens....Okay...So I was sitting in the room with him at a mix. He had 36 channels and as I was looking over the board I realized there was only a high and low filter for EQ and another knob with a funny symbol under it. I asked about the EQ. He said "Don't need it" turns out the "knob" was a variable phase he could sweep 180 degrees. And with this he completely dialed any and all sounds to sit in a mix without losing their impact, fidelity, tone, and purpose.

I'm sure that's too long-winded for a smart young person to take in. But it's where I learned about things like that. It's why when I track and mix I wind up with very very few plug-ins and almost never have to repair something. It's also why a single guitar track can cover a huge space in a mix and unless I want the 'sound' of something doubled, I don't have to use it to get things 'bigger'.

It all starts with placement and phase control is a major player in proper mic placement. Gain stage is next.
 
Ok, doubling and nudging. Noted. Clarity is crystal. Yes you can slide the 2nd or dup track and phase to thicken. Totally different.

Little John the search is on!

What everyone is describing is most easily understood as "comb filtering". Do a quick You Tube search.
 
The video I watched on phasing tracks was ok. Those youtube videos are terrible when they do not quickly show you the input chain.I didn't know how they captured the original sound that way. I could not repeat the experiment with that level of clarity. The phase changes and I can create the transient guides to mark the position clearly. The volume isnt there, my recording sound thin. Are you able to link a more complete instructional video? I wanted that beginning guitar track sound they had as an example.

Seventh son, I would do a tube search and check it with a grain of salt. Phase will change the sound. Instantly you can gear it thicker or take it to full swish.

Has anyone listened to those member song MP3s in this forum? Is it proper etiquette to ask how in world they did it? Cause people with DSL's and Marshall stacks propably spent enough and dont need to waste spending on things not needed. It might be a VST add on that loads a response image. ReaVerb is in my VSTs and is able to load responses. If this is the software that does it, perhaps try that too.
 
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What everyone is describing is most easily understood as "comb filtering". Do a quick You Tube search.

Yes comb filters I am a little familiar with. Also the 4 pole type filters. A 4 pole will give you a half cocked wah like a 'money for nuthin' intro as an example. People call it a butterworth filter cause they sound like pouring sweet syrup on pancakes.
 
Space treatment makes a difference. However you need a sound the player is happy with first. Then improve it with designing the recording space.

You cannot take a sound you do not like , improve the space , and say its fixed. A DRRI will sound significantly same room to room. Minor changes only from space. I am talking my bedroom to living room. I have no catherdral home space Im aware of.

Get away from my SM58 is better than your SM58, or my room is better than yours .

Take my A3 clip for example. It will always sound like the A3. Regardless of space. The sound change I am looking for will be major.

Those articles again no clips. How much trouble would it be to put a sound byte next the paragraph. When trying to find what makes the change your hearing in others' clips, word descriptions do not help very much.

Gain Staging? Count me out been there. Im not watching any video that does not show the input chain.So if they already have a nice sound and are playing with it post ....good for them.
 
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Yes comb filters I am a little familiar with. Also the 4 pole type filters. A 4 pole will give you a half cocked wah like a 'money for nuthin' intro as an example. People call it a butterworth filter cause they sound like pouring sweet syrup on pancakes.

Um, comb filtering as in "phase cancellation". Different usage in this case. At the simplest it can be described as the change in timbre of sounds caused by adding wave forms that have periods that don't coincide in re: if i have a track of a sine wave and an exact duplicate i can move one of them any direction along the time scale and change the tonality/timbre of the output .

When the two are lined up exactly I will hear a louder version of the single track because the entire waveform is being reproduced. As soon as i move one, the direction of the waves will no longer reinforce each other exclusively-some parts will be reinforced and others will effectively be "subtracted" by partial cancellation until the waves are exactly 180 degrees from each other at which point they will cancel completely and no sound will be heard. The timbres heard in between 0 degrees(fully in phase) and 180 degrees(reversed polarity) will change more and more from 0 until 90 and eventually go silent at 180.

This is about as simple as i can picture it and isn't exact so i suggest u experiment with one track of anything and an exact duplicate, no other tracks and move one forward in time a bit at a time until they cancel just so you get an idea of what is happening to the signal as the waveforms go out of alignment.
 
LazerBeakShiek said:
Get away from my SM58 is better than your SM58, or my room is better than yours .

Who is saying that?

Honestly there are a number of reasons why a specific room might be better than another. The physical size, shape and construction of any room has a huge effect on how the room might produce standing waves and comb filtering artifacts. It's a big deal if you're recording something like a drum kit. You can't really avoid it in that scenario. Bass trapping and diffusion can help in some spaces. Bass traps are much more important in smaller spaces where you're pretty much guaranteed to have wonky low end artifacts. Being able to use, lose or tune the room for your specific needs is something you can only decide to deal with yourself, once you have the experience. If you want to record everything in the middle of a deep null full of tone suck, that's your business. If you already know a lot about acoustics, that's great. If not, it's another subject that needs serious study if you want better recordings. Could be something as simple as getting your amp away from early reflection points like walls, corners and floors before you put a mic on it.

I'm not saying "my room is better than yours", I'm saying you should have a clear idea on how to evaluate the suitability of a room on your own.

As for SM58's, again, there are a lot of reasons why one mic might be different than another. If you had several to use would they all sound similar? Shure (pun intended). The exact same? Probably not. Better or worse? That's subjective and not really the point. When you look at the frequency plot of a 58 you can be absolutely confident that this is graphic design used by their advertising department. All mic manufacturers have those things. What often happens when you buy higher quality stuff is you get an individual plot of your microphone with the serial number of your mic on it. If it doesn't look exactly like the advertising spec, that's fine and quite normal. If it drifts a bit after living inside a kick drum or something for 10 years, that's normal too. If you swap out the transformer or remove it or something, all bets are off.

As long as you understand the basic stuff like polar patterns, proximity effect, off axis response, transient response et cetera, you can use the mic you have to tune what it does through your monitors. That's where the action is.


LazerBeakShiek said:
Those articles again no clips. How much trouble would it be to put a sound byte next the paragraph. When trying to find what makes the change your hearing in others' clips, word descriptions do not help very much.

The link I posted from DPA microphones on comb filtering has sound clips.


LazerBeakShiek said:
Gain Staging? Count me out been there.

So what was it you didn't like about gain staging?
 
At the simplest it can be described as ....

Post a clip of what your talking about. I am more than happy to listen to it.

What scale are you nudging? I think in reaper I can magnify down to 00.0.01 , or 1 millisecond.

I will not intellegentlly discuss that reasoning of your SM58 is better than mine. Please don't try.

Ill o-scope 2 different SM58's in reaper(same played sample) with the O scope VST and make a screen shot. They are the same O scope graph. If you found some location in the graph that differs what range are you finding it?
 
Hey I hear phasing on all those Beatles albums, Wizard, Roy Wood. Used that extensively, easily recognizable. That was a nice suggestion.

The Preamplifier I chose was the Avalon 737 , my thread was closed so .I went with the 737 mic pre.

It could have gone to ...what preamp I chose. Right Mr mod...

Wha about line levels. My equipment is +4. I keep it +4 through the chain. Out of my mic preamp chain it enters the interface 1/4" as -10 correct? Is that reduction why my recording sound thinner and quieter than at the PA speakers staying at +4?
 
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"Wha about line levels. My equipment is +4. I keep it +4 through the chain. Out of my mic preamp chain it enters the interface 1/4" as -10 correct? Is that reduction why my recording sound thinner and quieter than at the PA speakers staying at +4?"

Why are you asking about line operating levels? This is audio engineering 101. I only expect to see such questions in the Noob section.

Dave.
 
? You continue to insist that someone in these posts has suggested that one SM58 is "BETTER" than another or that 'their' particular SM58 is better than yours.......Not sure where that is coming from.....I can't find that reference at all.

I DO entirely agree with Snow Lizard on the fact that every mic has a difference in sound to every other mic even if they are the exact same manufacturer and came off the assembly line within a couple hundred serial numbers from each other. The propaganda sheet of a burst you got with your mic when you bought it has bee the same sheet Shure has used for years ESPECIALLY on their most popular mics, SM57/58. And yes, they are all fairly similar and YES they all will fall within the stated parameters of the specs. They do inspect and test them all but they most CERTAINLY do NOT run a burst on every single one. Not at that price point.

And how do I know they are all different? At one time when I had a large PA, I owned 25 SM57's and 14 Sm58's. Some were consecutive serial numbers. And they all had some 'difference' in their sound.

I kept 5 of the 57's and one 58 for my studio. 3 of the 57's are pre 1970 and so is the 58. 2 of the 57's are made in the Mexico factory they use now for assembly. The older ones are Made In USA and are all UnidyneIII caps. And YEAH....without a doubt they sound WAY different than any run of the mill SM57/58 you can buy at Guitarget. And they are all different from each other. Very audibly so. One of them is the ONLY mic I will use on a snare although with a jazzier session I will opt for a Beyer M201 on the top since it has zero low-end proximity bloom.

Your insistence that people who are trying to help you, provide proof of their claims, sort of lends itself to someone who has a lot of opinions derived from reading something without real world experience yet insisting that they are right, or with out some sort of empirical proof, it's not worth your time and effort to investigate.

Hey it's a free country you can do what you like....it's just that........those that are trying to help aren't needing to ask how and why things aren't quite right.......Know what I mean?

A person can learn a lot of sh#@t on the intra-nyet.....and a lot of it is half-truths or false or simple opinions.

The trick is to sort all that out. Folks here @ HomeRecording are pretty much up on their stuff.....so dismissing their help might not be in your best interest in solving your problems.

Is my room "better" than yours? Only because I made it that way.
 
I'm replying with a clip of a 5150 sig head. Vintage 30s and 1 sm57 going into some firepod preamps (what I had when I made this) and recorded in a small apartment:

Fans of Ola Englund will recognize the track. He posted the DI tracks at one point and the drum midi and bass so this is reamped through the above rig:



Here is another. Same deal, 1 57 mic on the cab 5150 head:



I'm sharing because I've gotten hired for re-amp work off of these clips alone.
 
Those sound awesome.

Dog, that is the whole general idea that one SAME bought item will sound alike purchased from another vendor.

PLace of manufacture or other differences are a DIFFERENT MODEL. A Mex made stratocaster is not the same as a USA made. Keep it the same. AS much as can be done, don't mod something or circa time from another.. A SM58 sounds like a SM58, one from Guitar Center and one from Sam Ash. Today.

IF you say otherwise show the VST O scope of the different area ....Please.
 
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