Recording a Grand Piano

S

SOBN

New member
Hello all!

First time poster so please bear with me. This weekend, I'm going to be recording my fiance perform a few new compositions by an Italian composer for a grand piano (unsure of if it'll be a Steinway or Fazioli at this stage).

She's borrowed some equipment for her college's studios. From what I understand, it's one dynamic and a small diaphragm condensor, into a tascam. Will also be recording video as well.

I'm very new to the recording game, I usually just play music. My understanding is dynamic mic on the bass end and condensor at the treble end of the piano? Any tips on positioning of the mics would be much appreciated.

Aiming for sample rate of 24 bit/44.1 khz. Buffer size 256/512? The room will be medium sized room, wooden floors, high ceilings.

All those values seem about right?

Any thing I need to be mindful of during the recording? We want to make it as high quality as we can (within the limits of our equipment) as there aren't any recordings online or on youtube for these new pieces. Hoping for them to be a good reference for future people wanting to perform them.

THANKS GUYS.

Ben
 
Hear are some ideas.

Keep the mics high. Don't want right angles or flat ceiling in room. Don't want reflection on itself. Isolate istruments with hanging blankets for dead space. Cathedral ceiling spaces are good. Pan ceiling ok. Stereo recording uses line level to push the signal right or left and is wider. Not a mono pan.

I would have somebody play and walk around in phones with the microphone and find the good spots.
 
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A lot depends on what kind of sound you want to record, too. I've heard a bunch of stuff recently where the piano does NOT sound well-recorded to me (Norah Jones, Lana del Rey come to mind). EQ/presence/air not captured well, or they've squashed it to death.
 
mark1971a said:
Hear are some ideas.

Keep the mics high. Don't want right angles or flat ceiling in room. Don't want reflection on itself. Isolate istruments with hanging blankets for dead space. Cathedral ceiling spaces are good. Pan ceiling ok. Stereo recording uses line level to push the signal right or left and is wider. Not a mono pan.

I would have somebody play and walk around in phones with the microphone and find the good spots.
Click to expand...

Great, thanks for the ideas. Will give them a try. I don't quite understand what you mean by 'Stereo recording uses line level to push the signal right or left and is wider. Not a mono pan.' Can you clarify?

mjbphotos said:
A lot depends on what kind of sound you want to record, too. I've heard a bunch of stuff recently where the piano does NOT sound well-recorded to me (Norah Jones, Lana del Rey come to mind). EQ/presence/air not captured well, or they've squashed it to death.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. Well there are about 6-7 contemporary pieces (similiar to John Cage, Carl Vine, Steve Reich) all shortish, but all very different in character. Some are very mellow and ambient, very touch sensitive, whilst some are very punchy and more about rhythm as oppose to richness in tone. I'm after a method to get a neutral recording and do minor editing afterwards to spruce it up.
 
Stereo A B microphone recording. There is no right and left pan, but instead it phase shifts right or left. Stereo fields, right? or you staying mono. Usually A B is what you do with 2 different microphones. You would not get the best results x y ing 2 different microphones.

With head phones on hold both armed microphones out and move them around while talking. That shift is phasing.

Mono is not bad. Every year a couple soundtracks have mono cuts so its still in fashion.

I would watch a video on youtube about A B, XY, blumlien placement and micro phonic styling.

Some of the best recordings I have seen done were binural. They separated the microphones with a blanket down the center.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZMs1_w1i0g

His recordings are not the best , but he explains it perfectly.
 
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I would personally use something like a neumann TLM103 and then a pair of neumann km184 mics in ORTF a few meters away. I would also record it at minimum 24 bit 88.2kHz but ideally 96kHz, in classical music, it's far more important than other styles.
 
The piano is probably in the top three most difficult instruments to record well. It's got such a broad frequency and dynamic range that it can be super challenging. The room it's in also has a huge effect on the sound.

First thing I would say is don't mix a dynamic and a condenser. I wouldn't unless I was desperate and it's all that was available. Of course if this is the sound you know you're going for, then ledderip! The reason why I say this is that the dynamic mic will have a more rugged sound due to it's heavier diaphragm so you won't get much of the top end, which is still desirable in the low registers. You still want to capture some of the hammer hitting the strings. Of course, I'm talking about strictly a straight ahead clear, h-fi piano recording here. If you like the sound you get and it works with the song, then great! If your goal is to pick up the lower notes with a larger diaphragm because of the extended bass response it has rather use an LDC and an SDC for the upper registers. Just be warned that if they're tonally different it might sound strange when you pan them.

What mics do you have? Maybe we can help you make a better choice.

However I would try to keep it simple and use a pair of SDCs to start with. A single mic properly placed can even work and recently a colleague and I got fantastic sound with a single Pearl CC 22 about four feet away pointed at the inside of the lid. Good go-to piano mics are DPA 4090 or 4099, Schoeps CMC5, Coles 4038 (darker sound), Neumann KM184 (or KM84) and even Shure SM81.

Where to place the mics is largely an exercise of trial and error. The lid of the piano plays a huge part here and can be used to focus the sound when mid-field micing or even dampen it when you need it to. Generally we need to place the mics so that they supply the desired ratio of direct and ambient sound. You also have to balance that with the desired tonality. If you want more of the hammer striking the strings, you'll need to move the mic accordingly. That's why the DPAs are so good. They are so damn fast that they pick up every nuance of the attack. They've got great low end too.

So it's a can of worms. Tell us what mics you have and maybe there will be a solution.

Cheers :)
 
From what I understand, it's one dynamic and a small diaphragm condensor
Click to expand...
I'd probably get a small piece of foam (or carpet) and tape the dynamic right to the plate (harp). Probably with the element over the 3rd hole from the upper register, pointed sort of toward the hammers. Depending on the length, of course -- Long story short, you want to be around the "1/3rd to the top" point, G5-ish.

As long as it's a decent mic, it's going to work. I've done it with 57's & 58's, RE20/27's, SM7b's, 421's, M80's (okay, M80's are a bonus), etc.

The condenser can go --- well, it depends on the room, but I'd start about 6' high about 6' out from the curve (bentside) if you're on the tall stick (if you're short-sticking, maybe 4' high).

This is all assuming you're not removing the lid...
 
Great! Thank you everyone for the responses.

Yeh, I've been doing a bit of research on SOS and forums but I'm feeling slightly overwhelmed as everyone seems to have very polar opinions about what IS the way to do it. I've always been inclined to play around and see what works, but a couple of starting points would be good otherwise I'm super lost.

I have just asked my fiance to switch the mics so we have two SDCs instead of a mix. It seemed like the two different mics would pose a few issues or be too hard for me as it's my first time doing this. I don't have the exact models at this stage but will get back with that info.

So now that the setup has become simpler, what would be good default positions to start in terms now that I have the two SDCs?
 
Sweetwater says of that model: recommended for vocals, brass, woodwinds, high-hat, cymbals, snare drum, and toms; but it seems to get good reviews from most people and the frequency curve looks good wihtout any peaks, although the low end response does drop off.
 
My advice to recording a grand is not to over think it. Sure, they sound incredible with an ideal pair of mics and quality pres, but I've heard them sound really great with minimal/budget miking. 57's, 414's, KSM 44s, c1000s. They all work, especially if its a quality instrument. Engineers tip toe around pianos and I don't understand why. We fear what we do not know, I guess :eatpopcorn:

Brad Dollar
[San Francisco Bay Area Recording Engineer Producer Studio Audio Mix Master]
 
If the room sounds good, then I'd certainly move the mics away and capture the room sound. I'd probably use both mics, but make sure the condenser has a fully balanced sound, and the dynamic maybe in a little closer and not worry too much about stereo. Pianos are stereo instruments, as they have width, but it's gentle. If the room is poor sounding, then I'd go in closer to minimise the room contribution and consider artificial reverb afterwards. It will be cleaner and easier for a beginner. whatever you do, a decent set of closed headphones or monitor speakers in another room and long cables. I agree with Mo - piano is VERY easy to get wrong, and if a pianist can hear the difference between a Steinway and a Faziola - or any other make, then the recording technique should be able to hear it too. I'm afraid I've even cheated from time to time and recorded the Yamaha MIDI output, and then used a decent sampler to recreate a piano when the room acoustics or ambient noise was a problem.
 
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SOBN said:
Great! Thank you everyone for the responses.

Yeh, I've been doing a bit of research on SOS and forums but I'm feeling slightly overwhelmed as everyone seems to have very polar opinions about what IS the way to do it. I've always been inclined to play around and see what works, but a couple of starting points would be good otherwise I'm super lost.

I have just asked my fiance to switch the mics so we have two SDCs instead of a mix. It seemed like the two different mics would pose a few issues or be too hard for me as it's my first time doing this. I don't have the exact models at this stage but will get back with that info.

So now that the setup has become simpler, what would be good default positions to start in terms now that I have the two SDCs?
Click to expand...

in that case, try a spaced pair otherwise known as the AB mic technique, I prefer that when only using 2 SDC's.
 
SOBN said:
Hello all!

First time poster so please bear with me. This weekend, I'm going to be recording my fiance perform a few new compositions by an Italian composer for a grand piano (unsure of if it'll be a Steinway or Fazioli at this stage).

She's borrowed some equipment for her college's studios. From what I understand, it's one dynamic and a small diaphragm condensor, into a tascam. Will also be recording video as well.

I'm very new to the recording game, I usually just play music. My understanding is dynamic mic on the bass end and condensor at the treble end of the piano? Any tips on positioning of the mics would be much appreciated.

Aiming for sample rate of 24 bit/44.1 khz. Buffer size 256/512? The room will be medium sized room, wooden floors, high ceilings.

All those values seem about right?

Any thing I need to be mindful of during the recording? We want to make it as high quality as we can (within the limits of our equipment) as there aren't any recordings online or on youtube for these new pieces. Hoping for them to be a good reference for future people wanting to perform them.

THANKS GUYS.

Ben
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I like the choice of microphones.

I specialise in recording piano recitals.

My starting point is a pair of SDC omni-directional microphones spaced about 20cm apart at around head height and about 2m in front of the piano.

I will vary this depending on the piano, the room, the pianist and the work played - but that is my starting position.

I normally record 24/96 or 24/88.2.

My choice of microphones is normally: Gefell M221, Sennheiser MKH 20 or 8020 or Neumann KM131-D.

I hope this helps.
 
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