Recording classical music.

Vagodeoz

Vagodeoz

One-Man-Band
I'm going to record and do the PA stuff for a live performance of a 90 piece orchestra in a few days. So any suggestions on how to do it?
It's going to be rhapsody in blue so there is going to be a solo piano.
Well, the first thing, digital or analog? I got a Tascam 414 mkII, or I could borrow a laptop and use my behringer usb interface. Which one should I use? I think I'm going for analog for this one.
As for mikes, I was thinking about two semi-coincident Rode NT5 as the main stereo mics.
Then a SM57 as a reinforcement for the winds, a Behringer C2 for the brass, a SM 58 for percussion and a Nady RSM-2 or Behringer B2-Pro for the piano (in mono).
It's in a rather small theater so the PA thing will be just to add a little more definition and volume. The main porpuse is recording.
I already recorded them in a church (with crappy acoustics) before with only the Rode NT5, here is a sample of the recording so you can tell me what you think.
I don't think they are going to want any monitoring, since before I offered them to do live sound and record, they were just going to play and leave the rest to the rooms acoustics, so I'm not much worried about feedback becouse of so few mikes.
As for the recording, I was thinking a stereo submix of the orchestra plus the piano in mono. 3 tracks, so I have one in reserve just in case (if I use the tascam 414).
Apart of the stuff mentioned above I also have another Behringer B2-Pro (2 in total), another Behringer C2 (2 in total) and 3 Behringer XM8500. I also have a Art Tube Pre-Amp I plan to use on the Nady RSM-2.
 
It would be highly unusual for an orchestra to use a PA, especially in a small theater. If your main intent is on recording, I would skip the PA entirely.

In fact, if you have a limited ability to create separate mixes for recording and live, running a PA would be a terrible idea. If you needed any sound reinforcement (which you shouldn't), the mix you would run through the PA would only be to support the direct sound, and therefore will be drastically different than what you want to record.

The next barrier you need to face is your limited ability to record a number of tracks. Since you seem to be limited to 2 to 4 tracks, you have to get the main pair right, and on its own tracks. It's not a good idea to try to create a stereo mix with a main pair and lots of spot mics on the fly. If you mess it up, the recording might be unfixable. Spot mics are usually each given their own track, and sometimes (often) don't even end up in the final mix. Essentially, they are insurance.

You have to deal with certain aspects of spot mics when you create a final mix. There will be a phase difference between the spot mics and the main pair. This can be addressed during mixdown IF you have isolated each mic on its own track.

I'm afraid neither of your recorders are particularly robust. I have used Tascam 4 tracks to do live shows, the biggest problem is the limited run time of a single cassette (22 1/2 minutes on high speed with a 90 minute tape). Longer tapes are not reliable, and with lead time on either side of a piece, as well as applause, you could run out of tape. Normal speed gives you longer run time, but with reduced quality, and the frequency response of the Tascam on high speed is already limited.

I personally would not want to have to trust a borrowed USB interface for a critical recording, and that might only give you two tracks. However, the audio quality will surpass the Tascam, and you won't have a time limit.

Given what you have, I would probably run both; the main pair into USB and a pair of the C2 or B2 into the Tascam on normal speed. Hopefully the USB works fine, and that's your main stereo pair. Also, I would spot the piano with another C2 or B2. The last track you can do whatever you feel needs a spot (although I would reverse the mics you assigned to winds and brass, if you pick one of those). You can then transfer the tape to PC and line up the tracks, and use what you need.

The recording you posted generally sounds OK, except for the acoustics problem you noted. In an environment like that, it's best to move closer to the orchestra to maximize direct sound to reverberent sound. Get above the conductor's head if you need to.

Good luck--have fun!
 
mshilarious said:
You can then transfer the tape to PC and line up the tracks, and use what you need.
Click to expand...

A side note - I've combined cassette and digital tracks before (not by choice) and ran into a situation where the cassette speed drifted with respect to the digital material. I had to chop up the cassette-originated tracks on the PC into sections and adjust the speed of each section to match the digital tracks. Lots of fun. Maybe with a Tascam that won't be an issue. I don't remember what was used for record/playback in my case.

-Keith
 
Testing123 said:
A side note - I've combined cassette and digital tracks before (not by choice) and ran into a situation where the cassette speed drifted with respect to the digital material. I had to chop up the cassette-originated tracks on the PC into sections and adjust the speed of each section to match the digital tracks. Lots of fun. Maybe with a Tascam that won't be an issue. I don't remember what was used for record/playback in my case.

-Keith
Click to expand...

That can certainly be an issue with a Tascam. Depends on its condition. It's another reason to try to use the USB for the main pair and not worry about spot mics too much.
 
What I'd do, given the gear:

No PA with an orchestra. Classical performance is a whole different thing than an amplified band of gtrs-drums-bass-vox-etc.

NT5 pair in ORTF config. Take a while and find a good sounding place in the room for the mic's. (that's the most important part of the whole thing for sound quality) You might want to rent a very tall stand. ORTF is a little less finicky re placement than XY.

Since it sounds like the recording machines might be problematic, I'd run the mic pre's into the USB interface and the same pre's also into the cassette machine as a redundant system. Check on the timing of the sections of the pieces being performed to see if you can use the cassette machine on high speed and change tapes between sections without losing any of the performance.
 
I think I preffer the analog sound, and if I don't use any spot mics then the number of tracks is not a problem. The stereo take plus the piano (3 tracks). Also the usb interface has only 2 inputs.
About the P.A., everything is set up in the place, the mixer, the amps, the speakers... everything except the mikes, which I'm going to put for recording, and since I have mikes, amps and speakers, and their last show was done by the greatest sound company in my town and it was horrible, I wanted to prove him that it can actually sound good. And, I could plug the mikes on the mixing board, go to the tascam through the direct outputs, and then screw around with the signal, since it's being recorded pre-fader and pre-eq.
Still think I shouldn't use P.A.?
As for the piano, I think I'm going to take both mikes (RSM-2 and B-2 Pro) to try which one sounds better on the spot.
 
Vagodeoz said:
Still think I shouldn't use P.A.?
Click to expand...

Yes! The best way to prove it can sound good is to have no PA system. A 90 piece orchestra will be able to make enough noise to hurt your ears in what you describe as a "small theater", so it just isn't needed.
 
Vagodeoz said:
I think I preffer the analog sound...
Click to expand...
Whatever works for you. I wouldn't use a cassette machine for serious recording. If you do a test recording with a decent USB interface compared to cassette, you'll hear the difference in resolution, dynamic range, and the typical cassette wow/flutter.
 
XLR said:
Whatever works for you. I wouldn't use a cassette machine for serious recording. If you do a test recording with a decent USB interface compared to cassette, you'll hear the difference in resolution, dynamic range, and the typical cassette wow/flutter.
Click to expand...

Yep. A Tascam 4-track just doesn't really give you the "analog sound" of a big reel tape machine. It gives you noise, and no response above 16khz. And a short recording time.

I like the other poster's idea about splitting the output from the mixer to both recorders. That's better and simpler than running two pairs. Simple is good. Then you can decide which sounds better afterwards, or even mix in a little analog sound if the tracks line up OK, and that's what you want.

And I will reiterate the comments about not using a PA. The only orchestra gigs I've seen with PAs are big pavilion or outdoor shows.
 
One of the cons of digital was that I "could" borrow a laptop, but maybe I can't.
So another solution arised. My mother is going to buy soon one of those DVD standalone recorders, so I'm going to take that one and record on it. I was also thinking about recording it on video, so I could plug the white and red rca (audio) from the mixer, and the yellow one (video) from the camera and get the edited/mixed video out of the box :)
However, that way I can only record 2 tracks at one, so I would have to make a stereo mix of the orchestra main pair and the piano mic, so maybe I will record both.
As for the P.A., I don't know how small the theater is, I'm going to check it out soon, but I know the acoustic sucks, and that the orchestra doesn't sound so good by itself (they don't have precisely high end instruments, on that sample above, I kinda did magic), so I can eq the PA and use it for example to give a bit of brightness and definition, and just a couple of dBs, since all I have to do to get PA is lift a fader, and I have nothing to lose (in the worse case, if it's sounding bad in the soundcheck, I drop PA).
 
Vagodeoz said:
One of the cons of digital was that I "could" borrow a laptop, but maybe I can't.
So another solution arised. My mother is going to buy soon one of those DVD standalone recorders, so I'm going to take that one and record on it. I was also thinking about recording it on video, so I could plug the white and red rca (audio) from the mixer, and the yellow one (video) from the camera and get the edited/mixed video out of the box :)
However, that way I can only record 2 tracks at one, so I would have to make a stereo mix of the orchestra main pair and the piano mic, so maybe I will record both.
As for the P.A., I don't know how small the theater is, I'm going to check it out soon, but I know the acoustic sucks, and that the orchestra doesn't sound so good by itself (they don't have precisely high end instruments, on that sample above, I kinda did magic), so I can eq the PA and use it for example to give a bit of brightness and definition, and just a couple of dBs, since all I have to do to get PA is lift a fader, and I have nothing to lose (in the worse case, if it's sounding bad in the soundcheck, I drop PA).
Click to expand...

I really think the PA is a bad idea. It's just not protocol, especially if your intention is to use it for EQ. Not to mention the fact that if it's a bad hall, micing up the orchestra won't change that, it will just make it that much harder to place mics.

The conductor is responsible for how the orchestra sounds. An engineer hired to record the orchestra is responsible for capturing that sound. There is no live sound engineer (unless you are playing to an outdoor crowd of several thousand people and you were specifically contracted to make it louder). I'd also go easy on the "magic" (again, unless given instructions to change something). Make sure you listen to some good recordings and know what your target is.

Keep it up - it didn't sound bad. :)
 
Vagodeoz said:
I checked the theater today, it seems pretty small, for mikes they only have sm58s so I will bring my own, and for mixer they have an allen & heath GL2000 :) nice board!!! :D
Click to expand...

nice setup that is what I have.
the SM 58 Mics are pretty good Instrument Mics the more mics you can set up the better off you will be.
JMO.

Good Thread BTW
I learned something from mshilarious posts
icon14.gif
 
So here is my "release candidate 1" sound design :P
Pair or semi-coincident Rode NT5 as a main pair.
Behringer B2-Pro for Piano.
Shure SM57 for percussion (I will alineate the main pair with the percussion reinforcement while mixing)
Those 4 tracks will be recorded in my tascam 414 mkII, and then transfered to my pc for mixing (anyone found a way to take out all 4 tracks simultaneously in the 414??)
As for PA, I don't know yet, I don't base myself on formulas, but on results :) So in the soundcheck for the recording, I will check if there is a reinforcement needed and how it sounds with it. I think at least I will have a little of the percussion track on the PA, since it's the furthest in the back, and maybe a little piano too.
And also as a backup I'm recording a stereo mix in digital, probably from the main output of my 414 mkII.
I will record it in one of those standalone DVD writers (LG DR-165), and if I get a camera I will record both audio and video at once, otherwise only sound.
And if something in special needs reinforcement (a fagot solo or whatever tha hell is needed, either for recording or PA) I borrow one of their SM58s.
Damm, I can't wait to be behind that mixer :D :D :D
So, any final suggestions? threats? even more arguments about why not use PA? :)
 
Hmmm... you don't seem to understand that orchestral music DOES NOT NEED a P.A. That's especially true in smaller/bad sounding venues. These people know how to balance their sound. The percussion is in the back for a reason - if it was in front it would be way too loud.

I've attended 1000s of "classsical" (i.e.orchestral)performances and recorded hundreds. I won't say I never heard a P.A. used, but the VERY few times I did, they sounded like #%#*! and the reviews in the papers (as well as any recordings) reflected this. There are a few (usually outdoor) venues where orchestras are routinely reinforced with some judicious use of microphones - the microphones in question cost 1000s of dollars each, and are positioned and routed by very experienced engineers (i.e. Old Guys, who've been doing this for decades).

Unless you have many years experience with "classical" music, PLEASE don't be tempted to use your P.A. knowledge to make them sound "better". Believe me, I was once young and thought I knew better, and it just ain't so.

Concentrate on capturing the best audio 'picture' of the performance, just the way it happens live. A pair of condensers in a really good listening spot is the best bet; recorded as cleanly as possible. If you feel you MUST use 'spot' mics, keep them on their own tracks, and don't put them in the mix unless the person who hired you hears the playback of the main pair and says " I don't hear enough XXXX, do you have a mic on that you can bring up?"

Seriously, if you want to get hired to do this kind of thing again, I'm speaking from looooong experience.

Good Luck!
 
Roguetitan said:
the more mics you can set up the better off you will be.
JMO.
Click to expand...

I'd disagree with that. strongly. Use as few mics as you can get away with. In fact, use a stereo pair (someone mentioned ORTF, good idea!), and only use a few spot mics if you really really REALLY need it.


and lose the PA. Honestly. If the room sounds band, using a PA will only excite the crappy sound even more.


Don't use the PA.
 
Vagodeoz said:
So here is my "release candidate 1" sound design :P
Pair or semi-coincident Rode NT5 as a main pair.
Behringer B2-Pro for Piano.
Shure SM57 for percussion (I will alineate the main pair with the percussion reinforcement while mixing)
Those 4 tracks will be recorded in my tascam 414 mkII, and then transfered to my pc for mixing (anyone found a way to take out all 4 tracks simultaneously in the 414??)
As for PA, I don't know yet, I don't base myself on formulas, but on results :) So in the soundcheck for the recording, I will check if there is a reinforcement needed and how it sounds with it. I think at least I will have a little of the percussion track on the PA, since it's the furthest in the back, and maybe a little piano too.
And also as a backup I'm recording a stereo mix in digital, probably from the main output of my 414 mkII.
I will record it in one of those standalone DVD writers (LG DR-165), and if I get a camera I will record both audio and video at once, otherwise only sound.
And if something in special needs reinforcement (a fagot solo or whatever tha hell is needed, either for recording or PA) I borrow one of their SM58s.
Damm, I can't wait to be behind that mixer :D :D :D
So, any final suggestions? threats? even more arguments about why not use PA? :)
Click to expand...

Using terms like "fagot solo" (besides the obvious revelation of your maturity level) demonstrates that you have little understanding of what you are supposed to record. You ask for help, you get some good suggestions, then you appear to ignore them.

What is it that you want to hear from us? Sorry, but using a PA with a 90-piece orchestra in a small hall, intending to use an SM58 as a spot mic, intending to mic the percussion (What the hell you gonna do with one 57? Pick just one mic? Just one tymp?), etc...those are really bad ideas. We're not making this stuff up. We've learned these things. How old are you anyway?

Good thing you only have four tracks. I'd hate to see what you'd try to mic if you had more.

One last time:
No PA
One main pair
Maybe a spot on the piano
If you really want to be fancy and still effective, you could use the four tracks to put up two pairs of mics so the conductor can choose which one he/she likes better. You could try one in ORTF and the other in mid/side or spaced omnis, etc. depending on the mic patterns you have available.
 
leddy said:
Using terms like "fagot solo" (besides the obvious revelation of your maturity level) demonstrates that you have little understanding of what you are supposed to record.
Click to expand...

I suspect OP is from a country where fagot is the proper term for bassoon or perhaps oboe. Both fagot and oboe have similar word origins; fagot from 'stick' and oboe from the French 'haut bois', meaning 'high wood'.
 
Oh yeah, sorry, I forgot to translate "fagot"(spanish) into "bassoon" (english)
And well, this is a huuuuuge forum you know, with maaaaaaany people that think different. There is no way I'm going to do a setup to keep everyone happy. Some people say the more mics the better, some say the less the better... (just an example)
So here is the deal, to get a propper balance of the orchestra it's said that you should get the main pair like 20 feet above the ground, but my mic stands go at 8 max (the theater has some mic stands too but I doubt they will reach somewhere near 20 feet).
It was at about 8 feet I recorded the sample I put on my first post. The strings sound great, but the furthest it goes to the back, the worse it sounds and the more reverberating it sounds. Which for percussion in a crappy sounding place, is bad. (as you can hear from the timpani)
So, I have a 4 track recorder, I'm using 3 tracks for the main and the piano. I have a free track and a free SM57 and a percussion section in the back that might need some definition on the mixing, so I have that track as a chance for reinforcements. Also I'm mixing it on my pc, so i will align it with the main pair to get rid of phase cancellations, or probably I won't even use it ,but if I need it, it's there.
However, I won't know if I need it or not untill I'm sitting in my studio listening to the recordings.

And yes, they are great suggestions and thanks everyone! but I can't base my desitions on words. I'm going to considere them seriously while making the soundcheck, becouse I know it comes from people with good understanding in the subject, but they haven't heard how this orchestra sounds, or how that theater sounds, or what the director of the orchestra is looking for, so as much knowledge as they have, they don't get the full perspective of the thing.
To begin with it's a very very young orchestra. The average age is 16, so an orchestra with 16 years old people won't sound as big as a 50 years old people orchestra... I guess, but then again, there is no final word untill the orchestra is on stage playing.
The director of the orchestra asked me for PA, so if I'm not going to use it, at least I have to experiment a little with it on the soundcheck, even if it's just to show him that it's unneccesary.

As for classical music, I'm 20 years old and I started playing violin when I was 3, so I'm not precisely a total idiot when it comes to orchestras...

And yes guys, I really apprecieate your suggestions and I will try to be a little less narrow-minded :)

Edit: In this piece they are playing (Rhapsody in Blue) the main instrument is the piano, so it must have it's own mic.
 
Vagodeoz said:
Oh yeah, sorry, I forgot to translate "fagot"(spanish) into "bassoon" (english)
Click to expand...

Well I feel stupid. :o

Sorry, your English was otherwise great, so I had no idea.

If they asked for a PA, then I guess they get a PA.
 
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