reamping issue: level too low! (Radial JCR/Behringer UMC202HD)

T

TheEscalator

New member
Hey Guys,
just got myself a Radial JCR passive reamp box.
My Problem is:
Ths Signal coming out of the JCR is not loud enough.

Even when I play a normalized DI-Track through my Behringer UMC202HDs line-out at maximum volume into the JCR with maximum level the signal is not as hot as my guitar straight into the amp.

It's not much thats missing, just a little too low, but everything is maxed out right now so I have completly NO headroom to adjust. noise level is high, too.

The DI is properly recorded and very loud, even though i record without a DI Box but straight into the instrument input at the interface, so it should be OK.

I don't see anything I could do wrong right now, can anyone help me?
I was really excited to start reamping, but this is not what I expected.

When I plug the JCR into the headphones-out I can get the level high enough, but the additional amount of noise is unacceptable.

But it gets even weirder, when I plug the amp into the line out of the interface the signal seems to be kinda the same little too low level as when plugging the amp into the JCR. also there is no difference in signal volume whether i plug the amp into the output or the INPUT of the JCR... is it just broken!? i'm completly clueless right now

Thanks alot for help ;)
 
You lost me at the end when you say you "plug the amp into the line out of the interface" - Huh?

How do you have the guitar track panned in the mix? All left or right and then use a single RCA (from L or R, as appropriate) to 1/4" TS (unbalanced) cable into the JCR?
 
The maximum output level of that interface is only +3dbu! That's not even nominal line level on pro gear. You need about the opposite of the attenuation from the reamp box. Like, you need amplification. The headphone output does that as you've found, but I'm not super surprised it's noisy, though. If you have a passive DI box, you could maybe try running that backwards. It needs a special cable, but it will give you a bit of step up through the transformer. Still probably be noisy.

I hate to say it, but if you really want to do this, you're gonna have to upgrade your interface. :(


Edit - Now it also says that the max level at the instrument input is -3dbu, which indicates that you should actually be getting 6db gain just with everything at unity. You need more headroom on both sides though.

A slight aside: That -3dbu input means the instrument input has got 23db of gain (more likely less attenuation) over the line input! That's the hottest instrument input I've ever seen, and I'm pretty sure that about half my guitars would completely smash it.
 
ashcat_lt said:
The maximum output level of that interface is only +3dbu! That's not even nominal line level on pro gear. You need about the opposite of the attenuation from the reamp box. Like, you need amplification. The headphone output does that as you've found, but I'm not super surprised it's noisy, though. If you have a passive DI box, you could maybe try running that backwards. It needs a special cable, but it will give you a bit of step up through the transformer. Still probably be noisy.

I hate to say it, but if you really want to do this, you're gonna have to upgrade your interface. :(


Edit - Now it also says that the max level at the instrument input is -3dbu, which indicates that you should actually be getting 6db gain just with everything at unity. You need more headroom on both sides though.

A slight aside: That -3dbu input means the instrument input has got 23db of gain (more likely less attenuation) over the line input! That's the hottest instrument input I've ever seen, and I'm pretty sure that about half my guitars would completely smash it.
Click to expand...

I KNEW there had to be something wrong with those super cheap interfaces! The UMC22 lists only 0dBu max out, a smell over one volt. Assuming you are recording at -18dBfs, as you should, that gives only about 60mV of signal and if the re-amp box attenuates a bit (cannot find that out) you will struggle. I dare say the guitar amp would give a decent output if you crank the gain but 'twill be noisy. You could try "normalizing" the tracks to near 0dBfs I suppose?

On another tack, that interface is surely going to have trouble driving some active monitors?

Dave.
 
wow, didn't expect to have such problems with my interface.
I like it alot overall and just ordered the Version with 4 inputs, but if it is unusable with reamp-boxes i'm not going to keep it...

again, if i max everything out (nomalized DI, max level at interface and JCR) it's very close to the guitars level, but only close. and noisy. :(

what would be a rather inexpensive interface with higher output levels?
is the focusrite stuff more usable?
 
I’m still curious about the cabling. You didn’t use a pair of RCA plugs to a 1/4” stereo plug, did you?
 
no, connected the JCR with either a 1/4" mono wire to the UMC202 or with a 1/4" to mono to XLR adapter, both with the same little too low level as a result.
 
TheEscalator said:
no, connected the JCR with either a 1/4" mono wire to the UMC202 or with a 1/4" to mono to XLR adapter, both with the same little too low level as a result.
Click to expand...
Guitar track was panned all the way to the L or R, i.e., whichever one you were connecting to the JCR?
 
TheEscalator said:
nope, but I just tried panning to the connected side and it makes no difference :/
Click to expand...
Now that seems a little weird to me. Seems like there should be some difference. If you pan it the other way it goes quiet, right?

You have the direct monitor button off, too?

P.S. [edit] My mistake on the outputs - the UMC202HD has TRS balanced outputs - I thought it was one of the models with RCA jacks! A straight TRS ("stereo") cable from the Behringer to the Radial input should work fine.
 
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keith.rogers said:
Now that seems a little weird to me. Seems like there should be some difference. If you pan it the other way it goes quiet, right?

You have the direct monitor button off, too?
Click to expand...

seems like Reaper just lowers the level for the side which is panned away from and keeps the other side at constant level.

direct monitoring is off, sadly.


I'm pretty convinced right now that the +3dBu-outputlevel of the interface just isn't enough, focusrite scarlets have +10dBu or more meaning over double the output voltage...
really sucks because the behringers have amazing connectivity, not only for that price.
now we know where they cut the costs :D
 
TheEscalator said:
seems like Reaper just lowers the level for the side which is panned away from and keeps the other side at constant level.

direct monitoring is off, sadly.


I'm pretty convinced right now that the +3dBu-outputlevel of the interface just isn't enough, focusrite scarlets have +10dBu or more meaning over double the output voltage...
really sucks because the behringers have amazing connectivity, not only for that price.
now we know where they cut the costs :D
Click to expand...
Someone will probably jump in here at some point and straighten this out, but are you just an unbalanced cable (like a guitar cable) to plug into the UMC202HD's output? I've read that this can cut your signal (or maybe it's the other way...).
 
keith.rogers said:
Someone will probably jump in here at some point and straighten this out, but are you just an unbalanced cable (like a guitar cable) to plug into the UMC202HD's output? I've read that this can cut your signal (or maybe it's the other way...).
Click to expand...

Yes! :D
but it should work fine, the JCR has an unbalanced line input.
voltages are pretty low, actually guitar like, so i hope this is no problem.
 
Throwing away half of a balanced signal can in some situations cause up to 6db of loss. That should just bring it back to unity with the instrument input, but there could be some other small losses along the way. An actual balanced connection there might help. Could help the noise also. It would still be nice to have more headroom overall, though. A "real" line output should probably top out somewhere above +20dbu.
 
I cannot find a figure for "gain or loss" for that Radial box but the specc' gives input and output impedances of 1k8 and 4k8 respectively and that suggests a lift of 4dB. But, an input Z of 1k8 is way too low for a piece of gear meant for connection to line outputs. The minimum is 10k. Now "pro" kit and the vast majority of "prosumer" gear will not be bothered but SOME things might. Anything that for instance uses the ubiquitous TL072 for its OP stage will struggle to drive less than 2k. I wonder if those impedance figures have been swapped around?

But, even with all the level and Z issues I still cannot see a guitar amp being underun by an AI's line output, no matter how feeble! Try the headphone OP of a laptop (or phone) into the amp. Note, you need a LEFT signal on the tip of the jack.

Dave.
 
Thanks a lot for all the good advice, i'm going to wait for the UMC404HD to arrive which has balanced line outputs to see if this actually helps.

If not i'm going to invest into a better interface like the scarlet 6i6 or the steinberg ur44, both have higher line output levels i think, and i'm pretty convinced right now that the low output level is causing the issues.
 
TheEscalator said:
Thanks a lot for all the good advice, i'm going to wait for the UMC404HD to arrive which has balanced line outputs to see if this actually helps.

If not i'm going to invest into a better interface like the scarlet 6i6 or the steinberg ur44, both have higher line output levels i think, and i'm pretty convinced right now that the low output level is causing the issues.
Click to expand...

Ok but the 404HD still only has a max OP of +3dBu, a volt and I suspect that means it comes directly from the D to A converter whereas almost all other AIs use a buffer chip with a bit of gain, typically 10 to 16dB.

Dave.
 
TheEscalator said:
Thanks a lot for all the good advice, i'm going to wait for the UMC404HD to arrive which has balanced line outputs to see if this actually helps.

If not i'm going to invest into a better interface like the scarlet 6i6 or the steinberg ur44, both have higher line output levels i think, and i'm pretty convinced right now that the low output level is causing the issues.
Click to expand...
You should get balanced cables to us with the balanced line outputs (which the current interface you have also has!!).

I have to say that given Behri's unspecified type of specs, I'm not wholly convinced we truly know what the line out really is. I mean, is that +3dBu the maximum (0dBFS), or is it something else? E.g., RME lists their output specs for "reference" levels of +4dBU and -10dBU, along with the 0dBFS values so you know the amount of clean headroom the output has. We have NO idea what Behringer's number is. (I kind of doubt it's the 0dBFS value.)

So, lots of assumptions, but we have ascertained the wrong cable type was being used. That's the first thing I'd correct.
 
Kieth, it says "maximum output +3dBu" in the spec sheet. The Berry UCA 202 is a -10dBV device and the input clips at one volt and it is a unity gain converter. That is fair enough because the 202 works better than it has a right to for 25quid, Yes, the UMC range ARE cheap but you would thing they could go $1/2 for an NE5532 and a couple of resistors and caps? SMT would get four outputs on less than a chrissytime stamp!

Dave.
 
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