Pre-amps and Setting The Correct Levels

A

alvinthedrummer

New member
Hi,

I'm pretty new to the scene and desperately need some help.

I am planning to record some live vocals, drums and guitars. I will be lining mics into dbx mini-preamps and then from the preapms to my soundcard. I'm using cubase sx in my computer to capture the recordings. Now here are my questions:

1)How do I determine the right levels to set on the preamps and also in cubase sx? Some say to set the levels in cubase to max and then play around with the preamp, but I've also heard of some saying to set the preamp to max (just so it doesn't clip) and then play around in cubase....i'm pretty confused here...which is the best way?

2)I've got a 20db pad button, and a phase button on my preamp, what are they used for? Could someone please give me some examples of use for these?

Thanks in advance!
 
Leave the levels in cubase at unity gain (0db) and set the preamp so that cubase's meter seems to be dancing around -12db. Sometimes it will be over, sometimes under, just as long as it doesn't clip. Instruments with large transients (like drums) you will just have to makes sure it doesn't clip, I set mine so that it doesn't go above -4db. With electric (distorted) guitars and other instruments with less transient and more sustain, they will sit around -12db

The 20db pad is used when you have a very loud source. If you turn the preamp all the way down but are still getting too much level, you engage the pad. It turns the signal down another 20db so you can get a good level.

The phase switch is used when you want to reverse the polarity of a signal. Like when you mic the top and bottom of a snare drum. When you hit the snare drum, the top head is moving away from the top mic, but the bottom head is moving toward the bottom mic. When you mix these mics together, you will get some phase cancelation. If you reverse the phase of one of the mics, it will fix this problem
 
If you're recording at 24-bit with decent gear, the noise floor will be so low that you don't need it to be that hot. If you try and go much higher, you're liable to get clipping--especially on something like drums where one exuberant snare hit can peak well above the average signal. You can't push digital the same way you can analog tape.
 
cellardweller said:
Does this mean you don't subscribe the the "track as hot as you can" philosophy?
Click to expand...
Running yourself out of headroom was never a great idea. Even working with 16 bit, chances are that the analog signal path leading to the convertors would be very close to being maxed out (and prone to distortion of the transient) before you got to the convertor. Everything is designed with specs relative to line level. Anything above line level but below clipping is called headroom. Sending a line level sine wave into a set of convertors will get you a digital level or -12 to -15dbfs (depending on the gear). If you are hitting 0dbfs that means that you are sending a signal 12 to 15db hotter than line level. Some equipment can handle that with no problem, cheap equipment, not so much.
 
Farview said:
Running yourself out of headroom was never a great idea. Even working with 16 bit, chances are that the analog signal path leading to the convertors would be very close to being maxed out (and prone to distortion of the transient) before you got to the convertor. Everything is designed with specs relative to line level. Anything above line level but below clipping is called headroom. Sending a line level sine wave into a set of convertors will get you a digital level or -12 to -15dbfs (depending on the gear). If you are hitting 0dbfs that means that you are sending a signal 12 to 15db hotter than line level. Some equipment can handle that with no problem, cheap equipment, not so much.
Click to expand...

Hi Farview,

Thank you so much for replying. I've got a few more questions though.

I usually compose with midi instruments and then convert them to wav files. Then from there, I will overdub with live instruments. What should my level settings be for those midi converted wav files? Does the -12db setting still apply? I'm quite confused here, if the level slider is to be kept at 0db, how do I get the midi converted wav files to get to -12db if they are too loud or soft? Or does your settings apply only for recording live
instruments/voice?

Please advice,
Thanks!
 
alvinthedrummer said:
What should my level settings be for those midi converted wav files?

-12db

Does the -12db setting still apply?

Yes

I'm quite confused here, if the level slider is to be kept at 0db, how do I get the midi converted wav files to get to -12db if they are too loud or soft?

Adjust the fader on the in Cubase or use a compresser

Or does your settings apply only for recording live
instruments/voice?

No they apply for tracking...
Click to expand...

If you are still confused read Farviews post again I got most of the answers to your questions from it.
 
Thanks Billwill,

I get it now, basically, every track's volume in a project should be kept to about -12db. This is to give myself more headroom am I right? Also, -12db is only a guide right? If for example I want the vocals to come out more, I can still bring it up can't I? And with all the tracks volume at -12db, I have heaps of room to play around...

Another thing, I've also heard some say that if the recording level is too low, I will get some hissing happening, is this true?

Also, am I right to say that the master level is independent of the tracks? In other words, if I want the overall output to be louder, I can adjust the master fader after all the individual tracks have been mixed to about -12db?

Man, this is really a great place to learn!!
 
I used to track as hot as possible but now I try and stick with what farview has described and it just makes life much easier. The extra headroom as has been said and also never having to retrack perfectly good takes because there's a bit of clipping.

I've heard people say you're not making the most of the bitrate you're recording at by doing this but I never noticed a reduction in quality when I started tracking at more conservative levels. If there is a difference I would say that it's negligible and that the pros described in this thread for being cautious far outweigh the cons of tracking 'hot'.

There was a good thread on it a while ago where both schools of thought were discussed by a couple of pretty knowledgeable people. I'll see if I can dig it out.
 
alvinthedrummer said:
Thanks Billwill,

I get it now, basically, every track's volume in a project should be kept to about -12db. This is to give myself more headroom am I right? Right except for drums which I go as about -6db

Also, -12db is only a guide right?
Right

If for example I want the vocals to come out more, I can still bring it up can't I?

Yes but I would suggest trying to compress it first this part is completly subjective to taste though.

Set the threshhold about -20db set the Ratio to about 2:1 to 4:1 quick attack slow release depending on the tempo of the song.
Then listen to it in the mix adjust the makeup gain till your riding at about -6db on the output meter if its still to low raise the threshold a bit.
This works for me it may or may not work well for you, use your ears.


Another thing, I've also heard some say that if the recording level is too low, I will get some hissing happening, is this true?


Your recording into a digital format not analog if your getting hiss at any level somethings wrong.

Also, am I right to say that the master level is independent of the tracks?

Ummm yes and no...

In other words, if I want the overall output to be louder, I can adjust the master fader after all the individual tracks have been mixed to about -12db?

I wouldn't worry about how loud it is at this point concentrate on getting a good sounding mix after that then worry about getting it loud <---thats what those mastering guys are for.

Man, this is really a great place to learn!!
Click to expand...


Yeah I've learned a lot hear too and i'm still learning stick around.

Good Luck
 
Hi Billwill,

You mentioned that you would track the drums at -6db, and the other instruments at -12db. Since drum volume tend to be on the loud side, should the levels be kept lower than the other instruments? Please advice. Thanks!
 
alvinthedrummer said:
Hi Billwill,

You mentioned that you would track the drums at -6db, and the other instruments at -12db. Since drum volume tend to be on the loud side, should the levels be kept lower than the other instruments? Please advice. Thanks!
Click to expand...


It depends on your tastes really and what genre of music you record.

I record mostly hiphop which is a little extreme in the drum bass area so it makes sense for me to turn these instruments up a little during tracking sense they will end up being a pretty dominant piece in my mix anyway.

If I were recording say a jazz album best believe my drums would be turned down.

It all depends on you someone wrote something to this effect before:

The Rules of Recording!!

1. There are no rules!

2. See rule number one.


So take everything I say with a grain of salt believe me I'm no expert and I'm still learning here myself. Take what you can use and use what you can. It doesn't matter how you get there as lon as it sounds good at the end.<---- someone told me that a long time ago and it stuck :D

EDIT: Stop calling me bill :D EDIT
 
bigwillz24 said:
It depends on your tastes really and what genre of music you record.

I record mostly hiphop which is a little extreme in the drum bass area so it makes sense for me to turn these instruments up a little during tracking sense they will end up being a pretty dominant piece in my mix anyway.

If I were recording say a jazz album best believe my drums would be turned down.

It all depends on you someone wrote something to this effect before:

The Rules of Recording!!

1. There are no rules!

2. See rule number one.


So take everything I say with a grain of salt believe me I'm no expert and I'm still learning here myself. Take what you can use and use what you can. It doesn't matter how you get there as lon as it sounds good at the end.<---- someone told me that a long time ago and it stuck :D

EDIT: Stop calling me bill :D EDIT
Click to expand...

HAHAHA.....sorry bill...i mean bigwill....

thanks again for all the responses...
 
As far as the midi instruments go, If you are recording hardware instruments through a mic pre, leave the input channels in cubase at unity gain just like recording anything else. If you are using soft synths, the only way to change the recording level of the instruments is the input fader, so you have to use it.

I would like to clarify the -12dbfs rule. I don't know how many people have recorded on a cassette deck with meters recently, but this is the only way I can think of to explain it. When you were setting the levels on a cassette deck, the 0db point on the meters was somewhere in the middle. The goal was to make sure that the level seemed to be around the 0db mark. You were trying to have the bulk of the level be around 0db and the trasients would be above and quieter parts would be below. The 0db on the meters of the cassette deck is equal to -12dbfs on your digital meters. You are alowed to go over -12, that is where the transients live, that is your headroom. You just want the bulk of the signal to be sitting at -12dbfs.
For drums and other things with large transients, you will have to just try to keep the peaks to around -6dbfs. I choose -6dbfs because every once in a while a drummer will get excited and whack something a little harder than normal, that extra 6db will hopefully catch that.
 
alvinthedrummer said:
I get it now, basically, every track's volume in a project should be kept to about -12db. This is to give myself more headroom am I right? Also, -12db is only a guide right? If for example I want the vocals to come out more, I can still bring it up can't I? And with all the tracks volume at -12db, I have heaps of room to play around...
Click to expand...
The 12dbfs thing is only during tracking. these are recording levels. mixing is a different process

alvinthedrummer said:
Another thing, I've also heard some say that if the recording level is too low, I will get some hissing happening, is this true?
Click to expand...
This will happen if you gain staging is messed up. If you follow these guidlines, it won't happen to you

alvinthedrummer said:
Also, am I right to say that the master level is independent of the tracks? In other words, if I want the overall output to be louder, I can adjust the master fader after all the individual tracks have been mixed to about -12db?
Click to expand...
Like I said, mixing a different ballgame. Once you mix the tracks together so they sound the way you want them to, you will most likely end up with a mix that averages at around -12dbfs at the mix buss. If you need it louder, that is where mastering comes in.
Recording, mixing and mastering are 3 completely different processes that all have their own little quirks and tricks. Once you have gotten the tracks recorded well, you are 80% there.
 
Farview said:
Running yourself out of headroom was never a great idea. Even working with 16 bit, chances are that the analog signal path leading to the convertors would be very close to being maxed out (and prone to distortion of the transient) before you got to the convertor. Everything is designed with specs relative to line level. Anything above line level but below clipping is called headroom. Sending a line level sine wave into a set of convertors will get you a digital level or -12 to -15dbfs (depending on the gear). If you are hitting 0dbfs that means that you are sending a signal 12 to 15db hotter than line level. Some equipment can handle that with no problem, cheap equipment, not so much.
Click to expand...

Awesome! Maybe I haven't looked hard enough, but I've never heard it explained like that before. That makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks for the info.
 
Farview said:
For drums and other things with large transients, you will have to just try to keep the peaks to around -6dbfs. I choose -6dbfs because every once in a while a drummer will get excited and whack something a little harder than normal, that extra 6db will hopefully catch that.
Click to expand...

Hi Farview,

I don't quite get the headroom bit. Why should the drums peak at a higher level than the other instruments since they have a chance of being louder? If the other instruments are peaked at -12 then shouldn't the drums be even lower than that?

Please advice,
Thanks!
 
bigwillz24 said:
What type of music do you record?
Click to expand...

All kinds, jazz, rock, funk...

I'm just confused on the concept of headroom. Shouldn't instruments that are more prone to accidental clipping have a lower recording level? Isn't -12 lower than -6? Why is it that drums are set at -6...isn't that closer to red than -12?
 
Headroom is basically the space you have left before you clip. In the digital world you don't want to come too close to that point. Digital clipping sounds horrendous. Analog is a lot more flexible.
 
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