Opera in a Church with piano, but a recording compromise due to video

rob aylestone

Moderator
Got a real conflict coming up later in the week. We're quite small but work is steady, and I got a call about doing an audio recording of two opera singers in a church. Some light opera, accompanied by a pianist, in a quite nice sounding large UK church. Had a chat, agreed to do it and got on with some more work. My colleague, who does more of our video work, unknown to me has a job the same day - to video a recital in a church, featuring two opera singers, and a pianist ........... Yep the same recital. Normally, when we get an audio job like this come in, we get the client to make it clear the audio is the primary requirement, and if it also turns out to have a video element - we get lead, and the video people work around us. If we take on a video commission, we insist video comes first and sound, if involved is second to where we put our cameras and set things up.

We kind of shot ourselves in the foot, and at a site meeting, our preferred way of dong this one, which being unamplified, in a nice setting would probably have meant a visually compromised result, with our mic stands in the way and looking pretty unpleasant. The client says the video actually is more important, while the performers want an audio recording as their main aim, but it is a performance for the audience - video and audio recording is secondary and is an exposure thing, not a revenue driven one.

I'm going to try something a bit new, having had a good listen. I'm going to put a mic, type to be determined when I hear them, on a short stand, waist height looking towards the mouth - on each of the two soloists (who may, or may not include a duet in the programme - again to yet decided). I'm going to put a twin capsule mic dead centre using a Blumlein pair again at about 3ft above ground, between them, and I am going to mid-field mic, BBC style in the cut out area of the piano with the full stick lid facing the audience. I'll probably use a 414 for this as it's going to be a Yamaha grand, and they seem to like 414s. I shall probably add a couple of mics focussing on the audience, which should get me some of the clapping/applause, as the performer mics won't have good rear coverage. The angle of the centre Blumlein mic at low level will have reduced coverage of the big space, because I will have to tilt it up. I have the option of setting the capsules to A/B, or other similar techniques, or I could set it to do M/S?

I'm going to record this through our Midas M32, going direct to a MacBook - so 7 channels max planned, but I've got scope to add extra channels if necessary - but hope that 3 or 5 channels will be sufficient for tweaking afterwards.

Above waist height won't be possible, although I could close mic them with some gooseneck mics I have, but they will look a bit strange and feature in closeups. Keeping the above waist is a no go rule, has anyone any interesting alternatives I've not thought of. It's Mozart - so oldish, in opera terms.

Cameras will be ten rows back on the centre line, one left, which will probably be locked of and looks nice with the (unused for the recording) organ pipes in the background, and a separate camera for the pianist, with the mid-field mic hopefully out of shot.

That's the job. We're split - my colleague will handle video, I'll handle audio and we will fight later! I think we will end up with m ore a close mic sound to the recording which I can then manipulate either with some of the space mics, and artificial reverb. We've done proper close mic re wordings and of course 100% ambient ones with stereo techniques, but this will be a half way house - with singer to mic distances of perhaps 1m (3ft), no closer.

It will also be with very short rehearsal time - if we are lucky we'll maybe have a few minutes of rehearsal, then a conventional service, then half an hour to reset things. I've sorted all the usual tricky things - cable routes, power, obstructions etc - but we will NOT have time to start moving mics or swapping them - a quick setup is essential.

Any comments appreciated.
 
Got a real conflict coming up later in the week. We're quite small but work is steady, and I got a call about doing an audio recording of two opera singers in a church. Some light opera, accompanied by a pianist, in a quite nice sounding large UK church. Had a chat, agreed to do it and got on with some more work. My colleague, who does more of our video work, unknown to me has a job the same day - to video a recital in a church, featuring two opera singers, and a pianist ........... Yep the same recital. Normally, when we get an audio job like this come in, we get the client to make it clear the audio is the primary requirement, and if it also turns out to have a video element - we get lead, and the video people work around us. If we take on a video commission, we insist video comes first and sound, if involved is second to where we put our cameras and set things up.

We kind of shot ourselves in the foot, and at a site meeting, our preferred way of dong this one, which being unamplified, in a nice setting would probably have meant a visually compromised result, with our mic stands in the way and looking pretty unpleasant. The client says the video actually is more important, while the performers want an audio recording as their main aim, but it is a performance for the audience - video and audio recording is secondary and is an exposure thing, not a revenue driven one.

I'm going to try something a bit new, having had a good listen. I'm going to put a mic, type to be determined when I hear them, on a short stand, waist height looking towards the mouth - on each of the two soloists (who may, or may not include a duet in the programme - again to yet decided). I'm going to put a twin capsule mic dead centre using a Blumlein pair again at about 3ft above ground, between them, and I am going to mid-field mic, BBC style in the cut out area of the piano with the full stick lid facing the audience. I'll probably use a 414 for this as it's going to be a Yamaha grand, and they seem to like 414s. I shall probably add a couple of mics focussing on the audience, which should get me some of the clapping/applause, as the performer mics won't have good rear coverage. The angle of the centre Blumlein mic at low level will have reduced coverage of the big space, because I will have to tilt it up. I have the option of setting the capsules to A/B, or other similar techniques, or I could set it to do M/S?

I'm going to record this through our Midas M32, going direct to a MacBook - so 7 channels max planned, but I've got scope to add extra channels if necessary - but hope that 3 or 5 channels will be sufficient for tweaking afterwards.

Above waist height won't be possible, although I could close mic them with some gooseneck mics I have, but they will look a bit strange and feature in closeups. Keeping the above waist is a no go rule, has anyone any interesting alternatives I've not thought of. It's Mozart - so oldish, in opera terms.

Cameras will be ten rows back on the centre line, one left, which will probably be locked of and looks nice with the (unused for the recording) organ pipes in the background, and a separate camera for the pianist, with the mid-field mic hopefully out of shot.

That's the job. We're split - my colleague will handle video, I'll handle audio and we will fight later! I think we will end up with m ore a close mic sound to the recording which I can then manipulate either with some of the space mics, and artificial reverb. We've done proper close mic re wordings and of course 100% ambient ones with stereo techniques, but this will be a half way house - with singer to mic distances of perhaps 1m (3ft), no closer.

It will also be with very short rehearsal time - if we are lucky we'll maybe have a few minutes of rehearsal, then a conventional service, then half an hour to reset things. I've sorted all the usual tricky things - cable routes, power, obstructions etc - but we will NOT have time to start moving mics or swapping them - a quick setup is essential.

Any comments appreciated.

You should find out EVERYTHING before you say yes:)

Why a blumlein ??????????????

You were hired to do audio. So do audio.
Ignore the other guy unless he wants to buy the audio final track copy to add to his video.

You are constrained by camera position since they want video more than audio.

I would imagine that 3' stand would not be clear of obstructing the camera and audience.
But if all they care about seeing is faces then that could work.

We really need to see the layout of where everybody will be at.
And will they be moving around??

A big layout including theatre and the vid cameras too would be helpful.
Also where the board and pc will be.
 
Er, been in the music and performing arts business since around 1984 - so I'll assume I didn't;t make myself very clear. We do sound, lighting, video, production management and education - that's how I paid the mortgage off. WE. - as in my business partner and I are doing video AND audio for the event. I responded to to one call, and he was talking to a different person. It's in a Church, with nice acoustics. The choice of the centre mic position is simply because there is a chance positioning, despite an x on the floor could be more central than I'd like, so a mic in the middle made sense as a backup, but then with the acoustics being rather nice, I wondered if Blumlein (which IS without doubt, my favourite techniques for ambient recordings in nice spaces) might get a bit of success - with the limitation of reduced rear coverage because of the low angle. From the site visit, waist height gives me a nice two shot, from the waist upwards with some single closeups of just head and shoulders. The side cameras will have the mic line out of vision. Not sure why you are interested in the board position, but although for classical recordings we'd normally set up in a side vestry, or other room with speakers, here, there's simply no time, and to be honest, I'm using experience to pick the mic positions I know works OK. I'm not convinced about the distances - being too far for conventional close mic, and too close for proper ambient. The variety of sources should give me some possibilities in post.

I'm happy with the video placement my colleague has got planned - we know these will be OK.

So What I have is this:
ch1 +ch2 dual capsule one piece microphone, available patterns 2 x omni, fig-9, cardioid (any combination possible)
ch3 Female vocal LDC or possibly 451/cardioid or omni capsules available.
ch 4 Male vocal LDC or possibly 451/cardioid or omni capsules available.
ch 5 piano 414
ch 6 audience left 451?
ch 7 audience right. 451?

I've got another ribbon, some different types of cardioid and omni LDC and a Shure SM7 and RE320 that could be used if anyone has any strange ideas.

The piano mic would be mid field, capturing direct and full stick lid reflections, but I could conventionally close mic it if necessary.

Plenty of extra channels if anyone has a cunning ideas.

So that's the ingredients and I have one recipe, but I'd like to consider others.

Space wise, if you look at the attached picture, imagine the singers in the position either side of the fella in the centre, and the main camera position will be central in between the two black grills in the aisle at the bottom. If it's critical for this discussion, the lens height will be about 1.8m above the ground. Hope this sets the context better. They are professional singers and will understand the necessity to not wander around. There is a chance of course that they will also need a music stand, and that, could be a bit tricky.stmarg.png
 
Shame the church doesn't have overhead choir mics already in place, i.e., those tiny things on wires that aim down. They're pretty typical placement over here, though the churches are more modern and less like that style, often with performances of some sort in the altar area, so I guess it's a pretty common add-on when they install the main system.

There are also "micro boom" small mics that might be a solution. Not invisible, but could be relatively unobtrusive.

I've seen mics - XY typically on a very tall stand, way above the crowd, placed in the center of the seating area, and aiming down, too. I guess that would be in the way of the video, though.
 
Most traditional churches here have sound systems worth about $50, and are simply terrible! Normally, in this kind of building, we'd fly 3mm aircraft cable from side to side and fly the array, but this one is a very quick in and out - arrive 11am, 12-1 is a service, and then the recording will be complete by 3pm. So pretty much is a plan in advance job, then run! The central camera will be preset, marked and then struck - re-instated for the recording and will be battery powered, so no cabling to worry about. The other positions can have powered operation. I'm happy enough that three mics will do the job, but have enough time to try a few things extra.
 
Hi Rob, I was already thinking of flying a Co-I pair, a la BBC then at the last post you explained why you could not!

Any chance of a breast height pot plant or two to hide mics?

Dave.
 
Er, been in the music and performing arts business since around 1984 - so I'll assume I didn't;t make myself very clear.....

Plenty of extra channels if anyone has a cunning ideas.

So that's the ingredients and I have one recipe, but I'd like to consider others.

Space wise, if you look at the attached picture, imagine the singers in the position either side of the fella in the centre, and the main camera position will be central in between the two black grills in the aisle at the bottom. ...

........ .................

Normally, in this kind of building, we'd fly 3mm aircraft cable from side to side and fly the array, but this one is a very quick in and out - arrive 11am, 12-1 is a service, and then the recording will be complete by 3pm. So pretty much is a plan in advance job, then run!

Well I was going to suggest hanging mikes from above but that seems to be out.
Also thought you all were competitors not that close.

The picture also helped a lot.


Do you have extra mikes too? Or just extra channels.

How about a pair of PZMs on the floor?
Can you fit an XY in the middle?

I would prefer to run some ambience mikes to other channels and forget the Blumlein approach. Mix to taste later.

Why not ALSO close mike the piano. You are doing the mixing later aren't you?

If you have channels and mikes to use I would put them somewhere to be useful if you decided to mix with their signals later on. But do plan them and know why you might want to use them not just do it.
 
Mics are not a problem, or channels - the desk can do up to 32 at a go. With time to get in and do our usual stuff, which is often just two mics in the right place, this must be what us Brits call belts and braces - a rig that will cope for unplanned events. The things that wreck these types of things - performers who don't hit the mark they stood on for the rehearsal. Those unexpected things like where a performer deliberately walks forward and talks to the audience, or the pianist suddenly putting the lid up or down, wrecking the balance. Or the noisy person in the audience, who in this age of inclusivity often sits right at the front - but is clearly in one of the lobes of the mic and recorded very well. With no chance to sort these things - a stereo pair - one-shot mic position isn't safe. As a backup to the computer, I'm going to run a Zoom 4ch recorder - which will have male, female and piano mics routed to it. The camera audio is only for sync purposes, but does offer a possibility as a distance perspective if all else fails. This is also one of those events where I'm going to have to cable neatly - something I rarely do being honest.

People don't seem to like Blumlein - which is a surprise. I've always used it as number one technique in our old fashioned 16-17th century churches where I could get the access. Never used it lower down, so could make my noisy audience problem worse. I could use the mic in M/S, but never done that low down either. The sound at the low position in my site visit it quite lively, aiming up towards the apse ceiling over the altar, through the chancel. I'm conscious of the blend dangers with two singers and a piano, offset to one side. The video really just gives me a limitation on available technique.

Has anyone used waist height stereo techniques with any success? Anybody prefer A/B rather than central miking? Any folk who have experiment with M/S in anything other than overhead positions? I'm confident by belts and braces approach will be at the minimum, adequate - but I'm hoping for better than that. I have a couple of long goosenecks, but I'm reluctant to use them because of the intrusion into the video.

I intended not close miking the piano to try to retain the same perspective as the singers, but I could of course do this and add some artificial distance, I just rather like the sound of Yamaha and Steinways miked like this - oddly, I did one recording on a Bechstein and it sounded very mellow, not what I expected or wanted. Close miking this particular Yamaha could also be quite noisy, as the damper bar has (I think) quite hard felt pads, so taking the foot off makes a bit of a clump.

I could replace the crossed fig-8 patterns on the centre mic with 2 x cardioids, or cardioid and fig-8 for M/S but I'd appreciate some reasons for discounting Blumlein, which has always served me well in these type buildings, admittedly, 3m further up!
 
Mics are not a problem, or channels - the desk can do up to 32 at a go. With time to get in and do our usual stuff, which is often just two mics in the right place, this must be what us Brits call belts and braces - a rig that will cope for unplanned events. The things that wreck these types of things - performers who don't hit the mark they stood on for the rehearsal. Those unexpected things like where a performer deliberately walks forward and talks to the audience, or the pianist suddenly putting the lid up or down, wrecking the balance. Or the noisy person in the audience, who in this age of inclusivity often sits right at the front - but is clearly in one of the lobes of the mic and recorded very well. With no chance to sort these things - a stereo pair - one-shot mic position isn't safe. As a backup to the computer, I'm going to run a Zoom 4ch recorder - which will have male, female and piano mics routed to it. The camera audio is only for sync purposes, but does offer a possibility as a distance perspective if all else fails. This is also one of those events where I'm going to have to cable neatly - something I rarely do being honest.

People don't seem to like Blumlein - which is a surprise. I've always used it as number one technique in our old fashioned 16-17th century churches where I could get the access. Never used it lower down, so could make my noisy audience problem worse. I could use the mic in M/S, but never done that low down either. The sound at the low position in my site visit it quite lively, aiming up towards the apse ceiling over the altar, through the chancel. I'm conscious of the blend dangers with two singers and a piano, offset to one side. The video really just gives me a limitation on available technique.

Has anyone used waist height stereo techniques with any success? Anybody prefer A/B rather than central miking? Any folk who have experiment with M/S in anything other than overhead positions? I'm confident by belts and braces approach will be at the minimum, adequate - but I'm hoping for better than that. I have a couple of long goosenecks, but I'm reluctant to use them because of the intrusion into the video.

I intended not close miking the piano to try to retain the same perspective as the singers, but I could of course do this and add some artificial distance, I just rather like the sound of Yamaha and Steinways miked like this - oddly, I did one recording on a Bechstein and it sounded very mellow, not what I expected or wanted. Close miking this particular Yamaha could also be quite noisy, as the damper bar has (I think) quite hard felt pads, so taking the foot off makes a bit of a clump.

I could replace the crossed fig-8 patterns on the centre mic with 2 x cardioids, or cardioid and fig-8 for M/S but I'd appreciate some reasons for discounting Blumlein, which has always served me well in these type buildings, admittedly, 3m further up!

Blumlein - less control over the room noise / ambiance than with separate mikes you mix later.

Same as not putting f/x on the live track going in but add them later.

Wireless mikes? Not sure if that would help but they are popular here.
Put mikes on the singers and record those channels separately too.
 
As it happens, I have numerous wireless mics as we do lots of theatre stuff - but it's not an option here for performer tetchiness. Lavs for opera singers needs all kinds of brow mopping and it's quite easy to overload the transmitters, even on the max pad. You normally get them puff out their chest, and say something like "Darling, I think you will find that I don't need a microphone". I've met one before, but the other two are an unknown - so the added stress of convincing them on a lav is something that while effective, is a feather rustling request. I've never had issues with the room, in fact, that's the main benefit for me in the nice spaces. I'm doing one the very next day at another church, slightly smaller and not at all nice sounding, so for that one, absolutely X/Y - bit for Friday's? I'd like to capture as much real sound as possible. I even thought about modified M/S with an omni and side, to get a more ambient sound. I don't plan on having any close miked sources if I can manage to cover my bases.

Anybody offer any comments on M/S - I appreciate all the comments, especially the warning ones - because while some I know have worked for me in the past - I'm sure they need listening to. I've been doing the prep work and am a tad concerned at the quantity of kit.

I've taken a few pics of the stereo mic I'm really wanting to use - for those people who love weird and wonderful microphones.
picture 1
picture 2
picture 3
picture 4
 
Went fine - apart from having hardly any time to set up - because they had a service while I was preparing. Trying to stuck down gaffer tape silently is amazingly difficult. Pianist needed to have the piano on short stick, so I needed to get the mic in closer than I intended, but the idea worked. I was quite pleased with the stereo mic - def better than the others which did a less ideal capture - despite the distance being about the same. The best blend is with the piano mic and the Blumlein, and the piano with a tad artificial reverb - it's nearly enough in the stereo mic, had the lid been up it would have been fine I think. This clip is the Blumlein and piano mic - no eq, just a blend of the two.
opera.png
 
"The client says the video actually is more important, while the performers want an audio recording as their main aim.."

Which one is paying you? Both?

You do the job the paying client wanted: video. If both, you have a problem.
 
Having worked in very high level live theatre (eg Sydney Opera House, etc) can I suggest that you go out and hire a very good quality radio mic system --- you will need a two channel unit or two separate units (eg Shure, AKG, Sennheiser) and get with it a belt pack and two VERY good "hair-line" mics (eg DPA) and using "toupe clips" thread the mics through the singers hair, so that the mic sits possibly just inside the front the singer's hair line. Use the toupe clips (you could possibly get a small pack of these from a good hair-dresser, wig manufacturer, etc) to hold the mic cable in place as it passes through the hair. Fit the belt pack inside the clothes of the artists at their back and secure the cable running down the artist's neck and back using clear medical tape (the tape I use is about 1 inch wide).

If you do this setup using the type of radio mic system I have suggested and adjust the belt packs gain as required to avoid any overload, the sound should be excellent and from the camera's shooting position it will be virtually impossible to see the microphone. Just be sure to get microphones that suite the performer's skin colour --- most of the better microphones are available in three colours, Beige, Black and one that is suitable for persons with an Asian/Middle Eastern skin toning.

Hope the above helps as it will/should give both excellent audio and video results. AND the mics should not pick up any/too much of the room's acoustics.

Just think that when you visit the professional live theatre venues to see productions such as Phantom Of The Opera, virtually all of the artists are wearing radio mics, but you don't see them and if the audio operator is fully professional, you do not realise that you are listening to the singers amplified voice. When doing live opera performances today, it is generally essential that the audience do not realise that the singers are being amplified.

David
 
Radio is NOT an option. One of our income streams is hiring out wireless systems, and we're very familiar with this kit, both digital and analogue. In this case, the event was a kind of tester, giving me a chance to experiment. Some things worked, some didn't. We're doing another event for the same client, who's very happy. In this case, the actual hierarchy was a bit unusual. The client in paperwork terms was the church. They organised the performers through a musical director, so in this case while the client would be in charge normally, in this example, the performers want some of the 'total' one wants hers and the duets, the other his and the duets. The musical director wants everything, but wants a short compilation not the full thing.

This is, for this one, fine. The experiment worked. Two tracks, mics put up to capture the audience and space sounded dreadful, the two AKG 451s producing a mush. The outer cardioids were nice sounding but responded badly to the male performer who was quite mobile. The stereo image shifted wildly. The centre mic, which I was worried would not perform well in its low position, actually did. Another trick to put in the book when you can't get them into the usual high position. Never done it before, and didn't know how well it would work. The too close mic on the piano was much harder to blend. Just too up front and even with treatment didn't sound quite right. Mixed in lower I think it was ok.

One the wireless front, the most expensive wireless system is nearly as good as a $20 cable! In my pro shows, we employ a sound person who's job is to be stage side, tweaking mic positions, swapping damaged or half unplugged cables and using copious amounts of tape! Opera singers are in general quite anti technology unless the venue is so big it needs it. Anna, at Sydney Opera House, spends a lot of time balancing the singers against the orchestras and managing this kind of thing is a full time job. Most of my opera work is in a wonderful building with excellent acoustics, and most are in-amplified. For the small recitals, I need something more foolproof. Next one I might not use the Blumlein technique, and go X/y with maybe a couple of omnis? Not tried a pair of omnis before. Anyone like that one and have any tips. There won't be any radios, that's just not an option.
 
Radio is NOT an option. One of our income streams is hiring out wireless systems, and we're very familiar with this kit, both digital and analogue. In this case, the event was a kind of tester, giving me a chance to experiment. Some things worked, some didn't. We're doing another event for the same client, who's very happy. In this case, the actual hierarchy was a bit unusual. The client in paperwork terms was the church. They organised the performers through a musical director, so in this case while the client would be in charge normally, in this example, the performers want some of the 'total' one wants hers and the duets, the other his and the duets. The musical director wants everything, but wants a short compilation not the full thing.

This is, for this one, fine. The experiment worked. Two tracks, mics put up to capture the audience and space sounded dreadful, the two AKG 451s producing a mush. The outer cardioids were nice sounding but responded badly to the male performer who was quite mobile. The stereo image shifted wildly. The centre mic, which I was worried would not perform well in its low position, actually did. Another trick to put in the book when you can't get them into the usual high position. Never done it before, and didn't know how well it would work. The too close mic on the piano was much harder to blend. Just too up front and even with treatment didn't sound quite right. Mixed in lower I think it was ok.

One the wireless front, the most expensive wireless system is nearly as good as a $20 cable! In my pro shows, we employ a sound person who's job is to be stage side, tweaking mic positions, swapping damaged or half unplugged cables and using copious amounts of tape! Opera singers are in general quite anti technology unless the venue is so big it needs it. Anna, at Sydney Opera House, spends a lot of time balancing the singers against the orchestras and managing this kind of thing is a full time job. Most of my opera work is in a wonderful building with excellent acoustics, and most are in-amplified. For the small recitals, I need something more foolproof. Next one I might not use the Blumlein technique, and go X/y with maybe a couple of omnis? Not tried a pair of omnis before. Anyone like that one and have any tips. There won't be any radios, that's just not an option.



yes
skipping the blumlein would be a good idea
 
No exactly the opposite. The results encourage me to keep Blumlein as a viable and 'bigger' technique. However - the next one is a smaller building that doesn't sound as nice, so X/Y would be the simplest - but I might have the option to use multiple mics again - so maybe I could try M/S, and A/B? I know you don't like Blumlein - and that's fine if you don't feel it works for you, but I still have it in the OK column. I'm negotiating to be able to use a catenary wire, but the rules might make this impossible. Just nice to experiment. My spaced cardioids were worth trying but just ineffective with moving sound sources.
 
No exactly the opposite. The results encourage me to keep Blumlein as a viable and 'bigger' technique. However - the next one is a smaller building that doesn't sound as nice, so X/Y would be the simplest - but I might have the option to use multiple mics again - so maybe I could try M/S, and A/B? I know you don't like Blumlein - and that's fine if you don't feel it works for you, but I still have it in the OK column. I'm negotiating to be able to use a catenary wire, but the rules might make this impossible. Just nice to experiment. My spaced cardioids were worth trying but just ineffective with moving sound sources.

blumlein is okay. just not for that situation you described in the initial post

experimenting is good. sticking with failure not so much.

moving sources need a wide stereo image space
or wireless mikes that they wear.
 
Wireless mics are fine for PA, they're good for TV when used with lavs, but I don't like the look of headword mics in shot. I simply In this case the problem with moving, is simply that the singer moves too much across the centre line so the image shifts very quickly. I really didn't fancy close miking at all - the piano mic was too close for my taste, the voices I think about right.

I'm definitely going to add low level Blumlein to my list of techniques that work in un-typical situations. The number of times we've had people say the same thing - they cannot get a mic in the usual position dead centre, but up in the air, and now I've tested this one - I'm happy it works fine.
 
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