Muddy and Fizzy Guitar Recordings

...and they already know what to set the eq on the amp, the eq/filters on the mic pre and compression/eq on the channel for any particular sound they are going for and only need to tweak slightly as needed. It's what you don't see that often times is where the actual sound is gotten.

Exactly!

There have been many times where the miked sound was kinda there, or at least I knew what I needed to do to make it just right AFTER I recorded it...and it was the post-tracking adjustments that really made it sound right.
I think in the "how to mic a guitar cab" videos, they leave out a lot of stuff that you don't see...and TBH, I don't think it's simply due to forgetfulness.
I mean...people have said "nice tone, what did you use"...and I simply tell them the amp, speaker and mic....I don't go into the rest of the details. :D

It's not just about keep things "secret"...but more about tuning it for your situation, and that's what everyone needs to do.
IOW...the basic setup is common to everyone...but then, each person needs to adjust it to what they want/need.
 
I tried something a little different today. I backed off the mic 5 inches to minimize the proximity effect, increased master volume to 4, and increased Bass from 3 to 7 to beef up the power chords. Sounded a lot better, I think; the mids were much thicker.
 
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My story and yours have many parallels. I have been at this very intensely for over 2 years, almost on a daily basis, at least an hour per day. In addition to the practical part, I have read every top online article, watched every top YouTube video, consulted books on audio engineering, and engaged with people on online forums, but to little avail. After over two years of learning and experimenting with every major variable (except for loud volume, which I can't afford often due to my apartment), my raw guitar recordings are about as good today as they were two years ago. I am simply not sure what it is that I am doing wrong, and it seems that no-one can provide me a clear roadmap or list of steps I can follow that will guarantee a decent result, which I define as a guitar sound that is focused, not muddy, not boomy, and not fizzy. I am just after a general classic '80s metal/thrash tone, since I wanted to learn how to do something classic first, before I venture into more modern tones. Maiden's "The Trooper" tone is a good example, but not an absolute requirement; I am just looking to achieve something like it in terms of clarity, focus, and EQ. I like that mid-range focus and not too much bottom end. Those guitars really sit nicely in the mix. Also, Randy Rhodes's tone on "Mr. Crowley" sounds really cool and has the same qualities that I would like to capture, just to give you an idea. It would probably be fair to say that you could name any '80s metal band here and be in the ballpark of what I am after, but I just wanted to provide a few examples to give you an idea.

What's also frustrating is that no-one can tell me what the major issue is. If someone told me with absolute certainty that it is impossible to achieve good recorded tones without the acoustics of a professional studio, or some fancy preamp, or whatnot, I would be happy, because then I would at least know what it is that I am missing. As it stands right now, I still don't know what my main issue is and I keep trying and end up chasing my own tail over and over with little to show for in terms of progress.

It is very frustrating and I am not sure where to get reliable information. I hope that someone on here can help me. I am going to give it a day or two for you guys to respond and see what else might come to your mind. Then, I also plan to post some raw recordings, so you can get a feel for what my results sound like, which might help shed some light on what might be causing the issues.

I do recommend posting examples for the most help. However , let me just point out that both Maiden and Randy multi tracked single guitar parts with less distortion on each to get that powerful sound. IIRC they weren't recording with big amps either. Mostly just pedals on tube combos. Stacking lower distortion guitar parts is a tried and true method get full non fizzy guitar tracks and whether tracking through API, Neve , or whatever, I can pretty much guarantee the low frequency roll off filters were probably engaged.

Out of curiosity, what is the preamp you are using? It wont make it impossible to use but sm57 and sm7 mics can change character quite a lot when the see different input impedances, so sometimes a different preamp can be just the trick.
 
increased master volume to 4, .

and there you go, (put it on 10 and use a power soak) I personally cant stand over done pre-amp distortion. Take an old Fender Tweed, (with no master volume) and crank it up. That's a great a tone. I realize metal guys don't really choose those boutique type setups as far as I know, but overdriven preamp tubes with no power tube distortion is a very fizzy tone IMHO.
 
I do recommend posting examples for the most help. However , let me just point out that both Maiden and Randy multi tracked single guitar parts with less distortion on each to get that powerful sound. IIRC they weren't recording with big amps either. Mostly just pedals on tube combos. Stacking lower distortion guitar parts is a tried and true method get full non fizzy guitar tracks and whether tracking through API, Neve , or whatever, I can pretty much guarantee the low frequency roll off filters were probably engaged.

Out of curiosity, what is the preamp you are using? It wont make it impossible to use but sm57 and sm7 mics can change character quite a lot when the see different input impedances, so sometimes a different preamp can be just the trick.

There is verifiable information (interviews with Max Norman) confirming that Randy multitrack heavily (multiple tracks both on rhythm and solo tracks). As for classic Maiden, it seems most likely that they used 50 Watt Marshall half stacks. I don't think they ever multitracked that much with Martin Birch. Modern Maiden have used everything from full stacks to combos, with distortion pedals used sometimes as an always-on boost and sometimes as a solo boost, including FET preamps to boost for solos. Their new-millennium stuff was mostly recorded live, with lead work and other detail laid down after the live tracking.

The preamp I am currently using is a Presonus FireStudio Mobile.

The things I tried today sounded much better, I think. I did the living room stereo test—it sounded good. Did the ultimate test, car stereo—also sounded very good. I think I got this figured out and am getting tones that I am satisfied with and can happily live with. What I did is, move the mic 5 inches from the grille, raised Bass from 3 to 7, and increased volume from 3 to 4. I'll post a sample on Monday, so you guys can hear what it sounds like.
 
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There is verifiable information (interviews with Max Norman) confirming that Randy multitrack heavily (multiple tracks both on rhythm and solo tracks). As for classic Maiden, it seems most likely that they used 50 Watt Marshall half stacks. I don't think they ever multitracked that much with Martin Birch. Modern Maiden have used everything from full stacks to combos, with distortion pedals used sometimes as an always-on boost and sometimes as a solo boost, including FET preamps to boost for solos. Their new-millennium stuff was mostly recorded live, with lead work and other detail laid down after the live tracking.

The preamp I am currently using is a Presonus FireStudio Mobile.

The things I tried today sounded much better, I think. I did the living room stereo test—it sounded good. Did the ultimate test, car stereo—also sounded very good. I think I got this figured out and am getting tones that I am satisfied with and can happily live with. What I did is, move the mic 5 inches from the grille, raised Bass from 3 to 7, and increased volume from 3 to 4. I'll post a sample on Monday, so you guys can hear what it sounds like.

Great to hear you're making positive progress!
 
Can't believe I missed this thread but whatever I'm weighing in.

1. A lot of old school guys used a boost pedal (and a lot of new guys do as well, the amps and guitar choices have just changed). The idea is to roll of the low end and crank the shit out of the mids. This why people put a TS9/OD808 (or equivalent there are tons of them) in from of the amp, dial the gain all the way down or near all the way down, crank the volume all the way up, and set the tone right around noon or 1 o clock (or honestly just set the tone to taste not all amps are the same and the tone knob plays off how you eq the amp). Thundering bass isn't what you want in a metal guitar tone. You get that by adding bass later. The bass should blend in a way that makes the guitar sound full even though when you solo it it's all lower and upper midrange.

2. With what I just explained about a tubescreamer, this means you dial back the gain some on your amp. You want it just breaking up, like rock crunch not what you would dial in for a live metal show. When you put the tubescreamer in front of a crunchy amp with the settings as described it will up the gain quite a bit because you are slamming the preamp (which is the goal).

3. The vintage 30 is a pretty midrange forward speaker, that said I have never been a fan of shoving the mic right up against the grill. I read back in the day (10+ years ago) that Andy Sneap used to cut the speaker grill cloth off his cabinets so he could shove the mic into the speaker even more. I actually prefer to put the sm57 around 3-5" or so away from the grill of my vintage 30s. I usually end up right were the dust cap meets the cone but with a marshall I probably would end up a little further out from center I would guess.


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Check out circle of tone's video on early Maiden tones.

EDIT: Go ahead and scratch what I said about the tubescreamer. Apparently it was a MXR micro amp and distortion + that you should be looking at. But the idea is the same.
 
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Can't believe I missed this thread but whatever I'm weighing in.

1. A lot of old school guys used a boost pedal (and a lot of new guys do as well, the amps and guitar choices have just changed). The idea is to roll of the low end and crank the shit out of the mids. This why people put a TS9/OD808 (or equivalent there are tons of them) in from of the amp, dial the gain all the way down or near all the way down, crank the volume all the way up, and set the tone right around noon or 1 o clock (or honestly just set the tone to taste not all amps are the same and the tone knob plays off how you eq the amp). Thundering bass isn't what you want in a metal guitar tone. You get that by adding bass later. The bass should blend in a way that makes the guitar sound full even though when you solo it it's all lower and upper midrange.

2. With what I just explained about a tubescreamer, this means you dial back the gain some on your amp. You want it just breaking up, like rock crunch not what you would dial in for a live metal show. When you put the tubescreamer in front of a crunchy amp with the settings as described it will up the gain quite a bit because you are slamming the preamp (which is the goal).

3. The vintage 30 is a pretty midrange forward speaker, that said I have never been a fan of shoving the mic right up against the grill. I read back in the day (10+ years ago) that Andy Sneap used to cut the speaker grill cloth off his cabinets so he could shove the mic into the speaker even more. I actually prefer to put the sm57 around 3-5" or so away from the grill of my vintage 30s. I usually end up right were the dust cap meets the cone but with a marshall I probably would end up a little further out from center I would guess.


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Check out circle of tone's video on early Maiden tones.

EDIT: Go ahead and scratch what I said about the tubescreamer. Apparently it was a MXR micro amp and distortion + that you should be looking at. But the idea is the same.

As a lifetime Maiden fan, I am familiar with all the info you mentioned above. Note that Adrian did use the Tubescreamer, but only after '85 or so. Before then, you are right, Dave preferred the MXR Distortion+ and Adrian preferred the MXR Micro Amp (mainly to push the amp on solos, according to a Piece of Mind-era interview). Dave is still very fond of the MXR Distortion+, but I think these days he uses it mainly for solos and only in the studio. In addition to those tools, an MXR 10-band EQ with a frown curve and a treble booster (Maiden had them custom made by Pete Cornish, but any decent one should work just fine) were also key ingredients in their tone. I have the TS-9, the Distortion+, and also a Boss DS-1 in my pedal collection, among others, but I don't use them often. In fact, I haven't even opened the TS-9 and the DS-1 box and tried them out. I do like the Distortion+ and its unique flavor, but I find that I can get almost identical results by using just my DSL15C's distortion (I've done the A/B to confirm that). What the Distortion+ does have that is interesting and unique, is that it uses germanium diodes, which are also used in treble boosters, so it has a subtle treble-booster flavor, which can be useful if you want to get real close to the classic Maiden tone, but with the minimum number of pedals.

Overall, my goal is not necessarily to recreate the exact tone, but to get the main characteristics right by going straight into the amp: A tight bottom end, thick and focused midrange and upper midrange, and no fizz. The best example of that tone is on Maiden's cover of "Cross Eyed Mary" (Check it out on YouTube. The way the guitars sit and are complemented by the bass, as you mentioned, is amazing, as is everything on the Piece of Mind album). Side note: The DS-1 does an impressively nice job of tightening up the low end.

I am somewhat familiar with Mr. Sneap's method. He generally likes to place an SM57 on-axis, just off-center, less than an inch, to "get rid of the 10k fizz," about an inch off the grille. He high-passes and low-passes guitars at 60Hz and 12kHz, respectively. It seems to work for him. His recent work with Saxon and Priest is very impressive and very modern sounding. I can, however, definitely tell that the guitars were close-miked. They sound warm/bassy and a touch scooped. I would prefer a little more definition on the rhythm guitars, but it's probably a trade off for the mentioned advantages of close-miking. To me, his results are the kind of stuff that is fairly straightforward and obtainable. The classic-metal stuff, on the other hand, is appreciably more difficult to cop.

Anyway, it seems to me that I get the best results by backing off the mic around 4–5 inches from the grille cloth, with the mic placed roughly halfway between the center and edge of the speaker. It works really well and sounds very good, without that nasty, woofy boominess that I get from placing the SM57 within an inch from the grille, and the guitars sit so much more naturally in the mix with the mids more filled out, since backing off the mic also reduces the fizz that you get from extremely close mic placement. I have no idea how guys who mic very close don't run into issues with definition resulting from the proximity effect. My only guess is that they must high-pass everything very aggressively either on the console or "in the box" at the mixing stage. Else, I really don't see how anyone could get usable raw tracks without some major EQ-ing in the post.
 
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A variable high-pass on the input is your friend. Always. Close micing requires a signal chain that doesn't add to the things you are trying to eliminate. This is where the high-end preamps, compressors and real electrical circuits come into use. A couple of stages of tube goodness or high-end FET circuitry is just the thing. Ribbon mics. Goboes help with room nodes. Guitar cabinets made of real wood. A well tuned guitar.
 
A variable high-pass on the input is your friend. Always. Close micing requires a signal chain that doesn't add to the things you are trying to eliminate. This is where the high-end preamps, compressors and real electrical circuits come into use. A couple of stages of tube goodness or high-end FET circuitry is just the thing. Ribbon mics. Goboes help with room nodes. Guitar cabinets made of real wood. A well tuned guitar.

I tried close, close miking today again and found that the SM57 loses a lot of girth and harmonic content if it's removed from the cloth even by an inch. I guess that is why so many engineers put the mic right up against the grille and talk about the proximity effect as if it is something highly desirable. Some even swear by an SM58 with the pop filter removed for even more proximity effect, as the SM58's diaphragm can get even closer to the speaker than an SM57's. It's definitely a modern sound. I am not sure how the classic tones that I like were developed, but the modern metal tone is not bad at all. I can live with it; it's full and present, which are attributes that my ears like.
 
You close mic with a HPF and roll out the lows that are characteristic in the proximity effect of the mic and not really a reproduction of real information in those frequencies.
 
You close mic with a HPF and roll out the lows that are characteristic in the proximity effect of the mic and not really a reproduction of real information in those frequencies.

Thank you. That makes sense. I noticed that the lows are boosted considerably when close-miking, creating the illusion of better tone due to the boost. Considering how much cleanup via post-EQ the close-miked tracks require, I think it might be best to avoid the whole ordeal by just pulling the mic back. It seems the better route for me, knowing what I know so far.
 
Better to roll off the bass on the guitar amp, I am amazed how many guitar players boost the bass tones on the guitar amp thinking it makes it fat sounding when in fact it adds woof.

Alan.
 
Better to roll off the bass on the guitar amp, I am amazed how many guitar players boost the bass tones on the guitar amp thinking it makes it fat sounding when in fact it adds woof.

Alan.

See my other post about amps Alan. I mention Merlin Blencowe, he makes much of keeping coupling capacitor values lower than usually found. Most amps he says have an unecessarily extended bass response. Yes, even valve BASS pre amps!

Dave.
 
Better to roll off the bass on the guitar amp, I am amazed how many guitar players boost the bass tones on the guitar amp thinking it makes it fat sounding when in fact it adds woof.

Alan.

I think you're right. I keep my Bass control around 2 for classic metal tones.

I also wanted to update this thread on my progress. I was able to solve my problem of fizzy guitars by turning the master volume up. The DSL15C I was using for recording doesn't start delivering the goods until master volume is at least on 8. It sounds still better on 10, but 8 is a good starting point.
 
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Problem Solved

Just wanted to update this thread and report that the issue I was having has been resolved. The fizzy guitars I complained about were the result of not driving the amp hard enough. However, after I noticed that my DSL15C starts to thicken, once volume is on 8, the rest was easy. I was able to dial in fairly standard EQ settings, with all EQ around noon, and place the mic in a standard position (on-axis, 1 inch off the grille, pointed at the dust cap edge), and got a great close-miked tone. The resulting sound was a bit more modern than what I was going for, but it lease it was a modern tone done right. What I initially perceived a fizzy, bassy tone, was remedied with the employment of more volume, probably due to the power tubes engaging at that point, but the speaker may also have benefited from more volume. With more volume, the woofiness was gone and replaced with a tighter, warmer, and thicker tone. So, basically, the lesson is: Apparently, some, if not all, Marshalls really need a lot of volume to develop their tone, at least as far as close-miked recording is concerned.
 
I have seen countless guys shove the SM57 right on the grille of a 4x12'" and get great tones, yet whenever I do it with even with a 1x12", I get a lot of proximity effect and boominess. What do you guys make of this?

I know this post is old, but yeah I fucking hate it. I never understood the appeal of shoving a 57 right up next to the cone only to put a hpf on in post. Just back the mic up a bit. I remember reading that Andy Sneap would remove the grill cover be it cloth or metal mesh just so he could get his mics closer.

Dude gets great guitar tones so I can't argue with it but it honestly doesn't work for me at all. I end up with the mic about 2-3" from the grill on my cab which ends up being roughly 5 or so inches from the speaker minimum.

Also, I'm glad you figured things out (from your post above).
 
I know this post is old, but yeah I fucking hate it. I never understood the appeal of shoving a 57 right up next to the cone only to put a hpf on in post. Just back the mic up a bit. I remember reading that Andy Sneap would remove the grill cover be it cloth or metal mesh just so he could get his mics closer.

Dude gets great guitar tones so I can't argue with it but it honestly doesn't work for me at all. I end up with the mic about 2-3" from the grill on my cab which ends up being roughly 5 or so inches from the speaker minimum.

Also, I'm glad you figured things out (from your post above).

I have to correct myself and some of the things I posted above. Through further experimentation, I have learned the the proximity effect I have complained about was probably the combined result of my own perception, monitoring situation, and psychoacoustics.

Experimenting with different cab placements, I have found that to get a nice, strong midrange, the cab needs to be on the ground (I'm using a 1x12'). For folks using 4x12's, that means they should mic up one of the bottom two speakers. In theory, it makes sense to raise the amp to avoid reflections and comb filtering, but in practice, raising the amp always deprives the tone of certain important lower mids and what I would describe as weight. My resulting mic placement was pretty standard: on-axis, on the grille, right over the dust cap edge.
But, to get back to the main point, if anyone is reading this because their distorted guitars sound fizzy, the #1 remedy is to record real loud, loud enough to get the power amp stage engaged. For reference, on my DSL15C, that happens when volume is on 8 or above.

Regarding your comment about Andy Sneap: I have heard people complaining about his sound, but after recently purchasing the latest Saxon album that Andy produced and analyzing it thoroughly, I can say that the criticism is more hairsplitting than anything worth debating. I actually liked the low end in his production. It's very classy. It's not what my ears are drawn toward. Personally, I don't like too dark and resonant heavy guitars. I'd rather hear a nice cutting guitar tone, something along the lines of Maiden's first album or Black Sabbath's "Iron Man" but a bit more refined, but I do have to say that I liked Andy's production style. It's modern metal. Nothing more, nothing less. However, at the same time, it really isn't that removed from classic metal production from the '80s or '90s. There are really only so many ways one can put a mic on a guitar amp. True, back in the day, guys like Martin Birch and Max Norman used close mics and room mics and combined them onto a single track, whereas Andy prefers the close-miked tone, but the difference between the two amounts to artistic choice, not a groundbreaking change in technology or something.
 
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I usually record fairly loud. I want the speaker cab to vibrate a bit and I want the speakers to be moving some air. I think it sounds better, plus I just stick the cab in a different room.

I'm more into modern tones where you drive the hell out of the preamp stage vs cooking the power section so I'm always recording with a higher output pickups and some kind of tubescreamer like boost (I don't own a TS9 so for me it's always something else, but the results are similar).
 
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