Muddy and Fizzy Guitar Recordings

I totally get it. I fooled around with the virtual amps in GarageBand today for a bit and got some pretty cool sounds our of it, but at the end of the day, I really enjoy the process of learning how to record with a mic. I am glad I made some significant progress today. The area near the edge of the speaker is where the edge of the speaker is. That's where it sounds most like the amp in the room. Understanding that that is where the sweet spot is now allows me to fine tune things to taste if I ever do some real recording with the band I am working on putting together.
 
moving to a Palmer PDI-09 was just simple genius for me....

i can still mic all i want,
but this thing gives me clarity.
mixes well.
use it live.
it's all good.

Pretty much the same thing as the H&K RedBox. I still have the original one I bought back in the early '90s, though I've kinda forgotten about it, and it's been lost in my pile of pedals. :D
I'll have to remember to bring it out again and use it on some things when I want to both mic and DI as a safety.



Understanding that that is where the sweet spot is now allows me to fine tune things to taste if I ever do some real recording with the band I am working on putting together.

Early on you said you tried every mic position, so I think people assumed you also put it in that 3/4 spot.
Thing is...I wouldn't make the assumption that it's always going to be the only sweet spot, unless you record your guitars to sound exactly the same way for every song.

That's also way I don't get hung up on the SM57 thing as the go-to mic...because I'm not looking for the same sound every time.
So it pays to experiment with both mics and position if you're doing a wider range of guitar styles and sounds.
Like I mentioned earlier...look for a used AKG D1000E...it's fantastic for guitar cab work, and you often don't need to use another mic with it and blend, like you usually do with a SM57.
No one was using them, and now a lot of people use them thanks to the internet....I guess I'm also partly to blame, for telling folks. :p
Just make sure the seller tests it and also offers returns/refunds. They are old, out of production mics....but worth every penny when they are functional, and even though their prices have gone up the more people learned about them, you can still find them for not more than the cost of a new SM57.
 
Pretty much the same thing as the H&K RedBox. I still have the original one I bought back in the early '90s, though I've kinda forgotten about it, and it's been lost in my pile of pedals. :D
I'll have to remember to bring it out again and use it on some things when I want to both mic and DI as a safety.

Early on you said you tried every mic position, so I think people assumed you also put it in that 3/4 spot.
Thing is...I wouldn't make the assumption that it's always going to be the only sweet spot, unless you record your guitars to sound exactly the same way for every song.

That's also way I don't get hung up on the SM57 thing as the go-to mic...because I'm not looking for the same sound every time.
So it pays to experiment with both mics and position if you're doing a wider range of guitar styles and sounds.
Like I mentioned earlier...look for a used AKG D1000E...it's fantastic for guitar cab work, and you often don't need to use another mic with it and blend, like you usually do with a SM57.
No one was using them, and now a lot of people use them thanks to the internet....I guess I'm also partly to blame, for telling folks. :p
Just make sure the seller tests it and also offers returns/refunds. They are old, out of production mics....but worth every penny when they are functional, and even though their prices have gone up the more people learned about them, you can still find them for not more than the cost of a new SM57.

The thing is, I did try every possible mic position, including the 3/4 spot, but I never dwelled too much on it, because it sounded a bit dull the more I listened to it, and also everyone else swears by the cap-meets-cone position, so I got too hung up thinking that I must have been doing something wrong, since everyone else seems to think that the cap edge position is pretty much fool proof. However, for classic rock and classic metal, I think that it is necessary to get closer to the edge, as that is where the desired midrange is. I still wonder how so many people get acceptable raw tracks from the cap edge position. To me, there's pretty much nothing but fizz there.
 
However, for classic rock and classic metal, I think that it is necessary to get closer to the edge, as that is where the desired midrange is. I still wonder how so many people get acceptable raw tracks from the cap edge position. To me, there's pretty much nothing but fizz there.

It depends a lot on the speaker, the cab, the room and the mic(s).

For your V30...your sweet spot ended up at 3/4 position.
With a different speaker and setup, it may indeed be at the edge of the dust cap...and on another one it might be at the outer edge of the cone.

Really...don't go by what everyone swears. I think a lot of that is just internet regurgitation of information, and suddenly it becomes gospel, and many people never even bother trying anything else and experimenting with their gear.

That "known thing" might be a starting point, but if it's not working for you, don't let it frustrate you as to why...it just isn't, so you have experiment and find what does work.
 
Since we are letting out secrets....Miroslav......The AKG D1000E has been a secret weapon on HiHats for years for me. The roll-off switch is kinda magic....
 
I'll add this one: don't religiously set your mics on axis. Just by moving the mic to more of an angle to the speaker grille you can get more tonal variety.
 
Pretty much the same thing as the H&K RedBox.

well, the first unit i tried with a cab filter and line out was a H&K Redbox,
and it didn't sound anything at all like the Palmer.
i couldn't use the Redbox.

i've also used the Radial JDX, and that sounds really nice too.
 
well, the first unit i tried with a cab filter and line out was a H&K Redbox,
and it didn't sound anything at all like the Palmer.
i couldn't use the Redbox.

i've also used the Radial JDX, and that sounds really nice too.

How they each sound is kinda subjective...I'm just saying that it's does the same kind of thing, and also there have been revisions to the H&K.
My old one only has a Combo/412 switch, and not all the switch options that the Palmer has.

I also have the Radial JDX...though TBH, I've not used it for guitar purposes much. I use it more with my Hammond Organ for that same DI purpose.
 
Having read scores of "I can't get a good rock guitar recording" threads over the years I have come to the conclusion that a deceased nag is being unecessarily hit here? The advances in pluggins, emulation and modelling are such that recording a loud stack is, from much that I read, no longer needed?

As ever: Sound on Sound Aug 07.

Dave.
 
Having read scores of "I can't get a good rock guitar recording" threads over the years I have come to the conclusion that a deceased nag is being unecessarily hit here? The advances in pluggins, emulation and modelling are such that recording a loud stack is, from much that I read, no longer needed?

As ever: Sound on Sound Aug 07.

Dave.

Good luck with that perspective...:D...the amp VS plugin argument rages on with no end in sight...so it's really a matter of personal preference, without an absolute answer.

Personally...I've invested quite a bit in high-end amps the last few years...and while I have some very high quality plugins/emulations...I use the amps 99.99% of the time. The only reason I got the software amps was simply to have "in case of"...but no real motivation to give up the amps in favor of them.
 
Good luck with that perspective...:D...the amp VS plugin argument rages on with no end in sight...so it's really a matter of personal preference, without an absolute answer.

Personally...I've invested quite a bit in high-end amps the last few years...and while I have some very high quality plugins/emulations...I use the amps 99.99% of the time. The only reason I got the software amps was simply to have "in case of"...but no real motivation to give up the amps in favor of them.

Oh I totally agree! You have the amps. the gear, the room and the expertise. Since you are getting the results you want "99.99% of the time" you obviously don't need simulation.

I was observing the countless number of (WTGR) bedroom wannabes that cannot quite cut it. For these people, many of whom often cannot even run the amp at an optimal level, the received wisdom now seem to be don't try, modelling and software is now so good, and getting better all the time.

Dave.
 
Oh I totally agree! You have the amps. the gear, the room and the expertise. Since you are getting the results you want "99.99% of the time" you obviously don't need simulation.

I was observing the countless number of (WTGR) bedroom wannabes that cannot quite cut it. For these people, many of whom often cannot even run the amp at an optimal level, the received wisdom now seem to be don't try, modelling and software is now so good, and getting better all the time.

Dave.

I have to agree. I will add to that: There is no reason not to use a small amp, in a closet under a blanket if need be. I have a few large amps, but they are almost always getting far mic'ed allowing the sound in the room to be recorded. Most of my "heavy" guitar sounds get recorded on practice amps with a 57 and/or a ribbon. A 57 against the grille does not need a big amp or speaker if you position it correctly.
 
Hey guys! Just a quick update. I experimented some more with the 3/4 position mentioned above and came to the conclusion that although it had a good midrange, it was lacking excitement in certain upper frequencies. So, I placed the mic back at cap edge and went back to the source and re-evaluated my amp’s tone in the room, with the speaker at ear level. I ended up turning Presence down to 0 to get rid of the fizz and using Treble instead for the bite. With that tweak, the amp sounded great and I was able to capture some amazing pro-quality tones with the SM57.
My final settings on the DSL15C were as follows.

Bass 3
Middle 8
Treble 6
Presence 0
Gain 3
Volume 3
 
I ended up turning Presence down to 0 to get rid of the fizz and using Treble instead for the bite.

On all my amps that have the Presence control, I tend to leave that pretty much at its nominal setting or even lower.
It can be a helpful when you need to cut through or generate that high-gain sizzle...but generally it also adds that fizz, and for recording it becomes too prominent.

As I mentioned earlier...check out the Defizzerator micro pedal. I picked one up recently just to give it a try, and it's a very handy tool that allows you to easily dial out fizz and hash from the tone without messing up your front panel control, and it will do it more effectively than what you can do by turning down Presence and Treble.
It's a passive EQ-type device with narrow notch filter circuits that focus on three specific problem frequency ranges.

DeFizzerator | Amptweaker
 
Ah! The Presence Control! Yes, I guess it will cut fizz because on valve amps at least it is not actually working just in the "presence" frequency region (and define that as you will)

On virtually all amps the control just reduces output stage negative feedback at mid frequencies and beyond but the natural filtering effect of the typical guitar speaker means the extreme HF, beyond 8kHz say, is reduced anyway.

It really does seem that in recording guitar amps the advice so often given that "less is more" is true?

Dave.
 
For those that mic their amps for home recording, I love you for it. For myself, I use modeling, and I love myself for it.

I'm pretty lazy and not nearly as intelligent as the amp mic'ers because I simply "cannot quite cut it". But what I REALLY enjoy is NOT having to pick my 80 lb AC30 amp up every time I need a guitar track, sticking it in my closet, throwing a blanket over it, pulling mic's out of my gig bag, pulling cables out of my gig bag, hooking it all up to my interface, getting the sound out of my amp, translating that sound through the mic into my interface per moving around mic(s), monitoring that sound against some pre-recorded tracks that need to mix well beginning from the source onward, moving mic's around again, rinse and repeat, repeat, repeat, etc. And doing this every time I have started writing and recording a new song.

I think I have "the amps. the gear, the room (well, maybe not the room) and the expertise" (no, not that either, pretty dumb), but the times I tried it, I hated doing it whether I got a good sound or not. Why?

Because I didn't get into home recording to become a "wannabe" sound engineer or the next Geoff Emerick all while never leaving my house. I could care less if I know how to mic an amp for recording purposes while ---- wait for it ----- inside my house. I got into home recording because I want the majority of my time spent writing songs, playing instruments, and recording. I have even "received wisdom now" to not even "try" to mic my amp. Because any benefits gained by mic'ing my amp is less than the amount of energy invested when compared to "The advances in pluggins, emulation and modelling".

The only thing wrong with the sentence "The advances in pluggins, emulation and modelling are such that recording a loud stack is, from much that I read, no longer needed?" is the question mark should be a period - for home recording.

When playing live, I am a purist to the Nth degree. Home recording? Not even close.
 
"check out the Defizzerator micro pedal...." Ooo! LOVE to see a schematic of that.

I thought it might be a CR "bridged T" circuit but reading the description they are at pains to point out susceptiblity to hum pickup? That tells me it could be inductor based.
Any chance of a gutshot? Don't want to rip anybody off, just nosy is all!

Dave.
 
I'm pretty lazy and not nearly as intelligent as the amp mic'ers because I simply "cannot quite cut it". But what I REALLY enjoy is NOT having to pick my 80 lb AC30 amp up every time I need a guitar track, sticking it in my closet, throwing a blanket over it, pulling mic's out of my gig bag, pulling cables out of my gig bag, hooking it all up to my interface, getting the sound out of my amp, translating that sound through the mic into my interface per moving around mic(s), monitoring that sound against some pre-recorded tracks that need to mix well beginning from the source onward, moving mic's around again, rinse and repeat, repeat, repeat, etc. And doing this every time I have started writing and recording a new song. .

Wow...you really make recording a guitar amp seem as difficult as building a pyramid. :facepalm:

I dunno...maybe I've been doing it all wrong...I rarely have to pickup my amps...I never have to stick them in a closet...I don't throw blankets over them, unless I have some desire to get a real dry/dead sound....and AFA the process to hook up cables and connect to interfaces, well, if you actually do enough home recording, those things are pretty much already "wired"...I mean, it's really just a quick connect thing. They are there, ready to go at arm's length.

Now when it comes to the part about getting that sound, and monitoring and making it all blend with other tracks...well, that's what recording is about, isn't it?
If you do it enough times, most of that becomes a muscle memory process...and the more songs you write and record, the less of a tedious process it is.

TBH...there ARE people who truly enjoy the recording process...the setting up for a session, because each session is (well, at least IMO, it should be) unique, and not just about punching up some presets and not having to put any effort into it....though again, the more you record, the effort you put into it is not really a "difficulty", it's simply the thing you do, no different than the effort require to learn a guitar part and execute it correctly...etc...etc.
The process is the journey...which often can be more interesting than the destination...but everyone is in a hurry to churn out a half-baked mix, and then start another one. It's like people at home are on some clock...and they consider the 5 minutes to set up a mic a waste of time.

So it sounds to me like you could have stopped your mini-rant after you said - "I'm pretty lazy..." :)

Oh, and another thing.
Maybe I'm in the very small minority...but I find it hard to believe that the majority of people who record at "home" (whatever that means for each person), all have to do it at mosquito-fart levels, and the "crazy" notion of being able to turn a 50W amp up past 2, is only reserved for people where "home" is some kind of underground bunker, isolated from humanity.

I'll give the apartment dwellers a pass here...I get it...thin walls and all that, but honestly, the people who live in houses should have plenty of opportunity to turn up past 2 to get some decent tones and move some air with that speaker, without your family or the neighborhood going into meltdown mode.
If you close the door to most typical rooms of any house, you can contain the sound pretty damn well enough of moderate and even higher wattages amps.
Oh sure, they may hear you upstairs or in the next room...but honestly, are most family members so not understanding or cooperative, so that they allow you to have at least some time of the day where you can do your thing and let rip a little bit...?

Heck...what do kids who learn how to play drums or things like loud brass instruments, etc, end up doing? They're not stuffing themselves into closets with blankets over them just so they can play their instruments, which can be pretty darn loud, sometimes as loud as a guitar amp.

No...I think the thing with many home rec guys who seem to always have some reason why recording anything OTB and miking up instrument is so "difficult" to do, IS more about laziness than anything else.
People these days are convenience whores (I've caught myself being one at times), and they just want to sit in a chair and play with their mouse and the GUIs...so you have to work at not being one. Experience live recording...don't just turn it into a software adventure.
OK...I guess...that's my rant. ;)
 
powerpop, where does the AC30 normally live?

You could you see run a speaker cable into the closet and uses a small cab in there. I would not go smaller than a 10" speaker. You could even incorporate some attenuation in the line, a "power soak"? That would allow the amp to cook at around 5 watts but still be tolerable for them's about thee.

I did not BTW intend any slight to anyone? There are term we have to use to descibe what people have to do? "Wannabe" might seem derogatory but in MY head it is not. This is a home recording forum and folks have to get the best results they can within their budget and space restaints plus NOT waking next door's chavvy!

My experience miccing up guitar amps was intense but short! A small bedroom, 1200 cu ft but so full of junk (mainly mine, books and 'tronics) way less than that. Amp was an EL84 Dominator clone that guitarist son had me modding endlessly to get "that sound". Speakers were a Celestion V30 Vitavox 12" cine PA (VERY sensitive but a nasal "shouty tone) couple of old 12" Goodmans. Mics: At first crappy, no-name dynamics, a Reslo RB and later a pair of AKG P150s. All into a Behringer Xenyx 802 driving a 2496 sound card.

Technically the sound was good, low noise and all that jazz but the guitar sound was never what my lad had in his head! Ten years on, in France he just plugs into a Jam man looper and bounces that to a laptop! Actually he is more into Bach on a classical acoustic these days.

We jus' do what we can wiv what we's got!

Dave.
 
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