Loud band, small room, vocals bleeding into drums

Noisebin

New member
I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions for my dilemma.

I'm trying to get some decent recordings of my band, not trying for studio quality, but I do have 8 tracks simultaneous recording capability to a DAW running Digital Performer.

The band is two loud guitars, a big set of loud drums, bass and vocals. The room is above the garage, loft type with 3 foot knee walls then sloped ceiling. It's about 22 x 24 ft.

The problem:
I've got the drums miced with SM57s, one on the kick, one on the snare. The vocals are too loud in the drum mics. Makes it hard to fix anything in the mix. I've got the trim level on the drums set to minimum which results in puny drums. But if I turn up the levels it just increases the levels of everything else. Don't want to trigger, can't get everyone to turn down.

Anyone have any suggestions?
 
Record the band without sending the vocals through the PA.

Unless your vocalist is naturally louder than your drummer, which in itself is probably a problem. Then either put gobos around the singer or record the band without the singer and have the singer overdub the vocals after the fact.

G.
 
clarification

I realize now that I didn't convey this: I want to record our sessions for learning purposes so I'm trying to capture our actual live sound so that we can improve. I"m trying to make the best of a bad situation in other words. I know we are putting too much noise into a small space but I'm looking to get any improvements I can. Thanks.
 
In that case I think you're over complicating things. Just practice together, you'll hear what's right and wrong. If you need to record and play back to hear what you're doing there's a problem. Seems to me you guys need to turn down, a lot. As someone with tinnitus trust me, and we weren't very loud.
 
What Glen said....

Get the mic signal before it hits the PA and position your PA speakers so that the drum mics don't pick it up as best you can... stick one in the bass drum and plug up the hole... isolate the snare mic as best you can with soft furnishings or the chunkier members of the entourage... turn the PA down a little

What you actually sound like may be best captured with 2 condensers out front, or if everything's in the PA (it probably isn't, is it?) a direct feed... but if your room's small I guess that's going to be difficult.
 
In that case I think you're over complicating things. Just practice together, you'll hear what's right and wrong. If you need to record and play back to hear what you're doing there's a problem. Seems to me you guys need to turn down, a lot. As someone with tinnitus trust me, and we weren't very loud.

Yeah, I'd second that.

Also...

If you've got 2 57's that are aimed at a drumset and picking up vocal from the PA, then something ain't right. Sounds like the vocals are too loud. Or maybe try repositioning the speakers.

Ooooorrrr you could record without vocals and put them in later. You'll still get a good representation of your live sound ;)

Ooooorrr you could just get a bigger room. :D
 
An approach that I've used is to use one mic. We've recorded a couple of rehearsals with just a Behringer ECM 8000 in the room somewhere between the band and the PA speakers. Any omni mic should be able to do this. I know it doesn't fix what you're asking for, you're not going to get less bleed with this approach. It will be all bleed. But it will give the band an indication of how they might want to fix the actual live sound.
 
In that case I think you're over complicating things. Just practice together, you'll hear what's right and wrong. If you need to record and play back to hear what you're doing there's a problem. Seems to me you guys need to turn down, a lot. As someone with tinnitus trust me, and we weren't very loud.

HUH? WHAT? WHAT DID HE SAY? .... WILL SOMEBODY ANSWER THAT DAMN PHONE!!!!!!!! :D








:cool:
 
More clarification

Thanks for the tips but let me respond and put a little finer point on it.

With my set up what we do is mic everything (drums minimally as stated above) and run everything into the mixer. Only the vocals are sent to the PA speaks. Me and the drummer use in-ear monitoring, the other 3 guys are trying to make themselves go deaf.

I'm not looking for 100% isolation, or even 50%. Thing is, it's difficult to listen to the band critically while trying to ensure that I am playing what I"m supposed to be playing and singing backup. Much better to listen to a recording. Plus we all think it sounds pretty good real time, but when I listen to the recordings the truth is told. I want to tell that truth to the other players...hence the desire to record.

With my bass around my neck it's difficult to be the mixer guy too. I can get the levels roughed in but it would be nice to be able to have a little adjustment to make a better sounding record.

So far I think the best suggestion might be to just try the one mic. How the hell did Sam Phillips do it at that little crap hole studio in Memphis? I guess it might have been the one mic thing.

Would a gobo do much in front of the drums or would the soundwaves sneak in from the side?
 
We use to tape full band practices...we'd stick one mic out in the room and record to a dinky cassette deck.

If you're looking for "sound quality"...you have a lot of issues to overcome.

If you simply want a record of how the practice session went and if everyone is playing as they should...no need to over complicate things.
If they can't hear what is wrong on the playback...maybe they're already deaf! :D

I just don't get why some bands have so much difficulty TURNING DOWN when they play...especially during practices in a small, cramped room. :rolleyes:
 
Would a gobo do much in front of the drums or would the soundwaves sneak in from the side?
A gobo is great for isolation but your situation is unique. It's usually a problem with the drums leaking into the vocal mics and not vice versa. Still the gobo will help but you still need to turn down.
 
Just to put a fine point on it, if you really want the band to hear what they sound like, then you probably don't want to individually mic and mix the instruments anyway, as that just creates a false image.

I've had a band do that simply by hanging one of those pocket digital recorders in a little fishnet sock from the lead singer's mic stand, and it came out actually pretty good, or at least fairly accurate enough to get a pretty good idea of what the band actually sounded like to the audience. So what if the levels weren't quite perfectly balanced? They weren't - and you aren't - out to press an album; only to get a document of the band's relative performance.

I wouldn't go any fancier than a coincident stereo pair far enough in front of the band to get the vocals from the PA, but not o far as to make everything else background.

There's no point in individually miking the drums. If a listener (or microphone) 10 feet in front of the drums can't pick them up just fine, you've got far bigger problems than you're letting on.

G.
 
Well we've got everything miked because the two of us are using in-ear monitors. If I could get everyone to go that route we could probably save a lot of problems.

Thanks for your help, it kind of reinforces that I haven't missed anything, I'm just up against the laws of physics I guess.

Over
 
Only the vocals are sent to the PA speaks.

PA speakers are for the audience. If there's no audience don't use PA speakers, use wedges for those too cool for IEMs. Stand in a semi-circle around the kit with the wedges facing out and one for the drummer. Maybe close mic the kick and snare and let the rest bleed into the vocal mics.
 
I guess I should have mentioned that despite the "newbie" title by my ID, I actually have been recording for about 20 years, so I"ve got a pretty good grasp of the basics. My "pa speaks" are actually wedges pointed away from the drums (drummer uses the in-ears).

I'm just baffled at how high the level of the vocals are in the two SM-57s on the drums. It is so loud, that you have to pull the real vocal fader up about 65% of the way just to overcome the vocal in the drum mics.

I tried to get around this by turning the trim on the drum mics all the way down figuring that only the explosive sound of the close miked drum would penetrate. But that leaves the drums sounding weak.

The funny thing is, the non in-ear guys say they can barely hear the vocals in the room. Sinny hoo, I guess I'll have to go with triggers, Edrums, or a drum machine. I have outrun the limits of analog technology!
 
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