Levels, levels, levels... What are the general rules?

zenpeace69

New member
Depending on where I have what in my recording signal chain, I could have 2 or more level controls. For the best fidelity, what are the general rules for levels for a preamp and your firewire connection? Is it best to crank the preamp and ease up to the wanted level on the firewire? Or vice versa?
 
my personal standard is to start at the source and move through the path to the computer.
-make the performer/instrument play louder...
-move the mic closer
-turn up the preamp
-turn up the channel fader
-turn up the main outs (if using a mixer's main outs)
-turn up the the input to recording device...
etc.
Watching the levels the entire time.
 
get your signal as hot as possible as quickly as possible

keep the signal chain as short as possible

don't use more than one preamp as it will massively boost the noise floor
 
1. plug the mic into the preamp.
2. turn the preamp up until the signal is line level.
3. keep the signal at line level going through all the different pieces.
 
I know that in theory an external preamp should be outputed to a line input. But let me ask you guys a practical question. I have an M-Audio firewire with two preamps and 8 line inputs. I also have an external Vintech preamp.

Is it better to run the external preamp into the line inputes?

This is what I would think. But I have found that if I run into the M-Audio preamp input instead, I can turn the gain on the M-Audio preamp all the way down and select the pad down, and run my external preamp a lot hotter. I appears that by using the M-Audio pre and pading down my input is below line level.

Since I can run the external preamp hotter, it seems to give me a warmer sound this way. But theoretically I feel like I should not be doing this and I should use the line inputs. What do you guys think?
 
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Dr_simon said:
get your signal as hot as possible as quickly as possible
Most definitely do NOT pay attention to that one -
Farview said:
1. plug the mic into the preamp.
2. turn the preamp up until the signal is line level.
3. keep the signal at line level going through all the different pieces.
I can go along with that. Line level or below is a nice place to be. It's also where the gear is designed to run...
 
Farview said:
1. plug the mic into the preamp.
2. turn the preamp up until the signal is line level.
3. keep the signal at line level going through all the different pieces.
It really IS as simple as that.

If I may presume, Jay and John, I'd like to add #4...

4. If crossing over to digital, keep at line level into your converters, let your converters do their thing naturally, and record the digital at unity gain on the digital recorder input.

G.
 
sorry if that didn't come out quite right, bringing your signal up to line level ASAP was exactly what I meant.

What I was trying to get at was not using a whole bunch of pres in a chain to bring the signal up a little bit at each gain stage (adding noise at each stage).
 
zenpeace69 said:
I'm sorry if this is a really dumb question, but what is "line level?"

there are three main types of analog signals:
microphone level
line level
and instrument level
(you could also say there was a fourth...the signal level used to drive a speaker after the power amp)

microphone signals are very weak signals and we have to use an amplifier to make the weak signal stronger in order to manipulate it. The amplifier brings this signal up to a level we call "line level." This is the typical signal you'll use with CD player outputs, TVs, DVDs, mixer outputs, etc. These units are already at line level. The two most commonly used reference for line level are +4dBu ("professional") and -10dBV ("consumer")
 
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I don't know much when it comes to levels, so this may be a stupid question, but how do you know when your levels are at line level?

For example, say you have a microphone plugged into an Audio Buddy, which is plugged into the LINE IN of the soundcard.

How do you know what the optimum level is for the Audio Buddy's preamp gain knob?

When recording, I try to keep the peak level around -12db. I would go for -18 but the noise in my room won't allow it, even at 12 I still have a few noise issues.

But besides preamp volume, the further away from the mic you are also effects volume and S/N ratio.

So, my question is, how high should the preamp gain be on the Audio Buddy for "optimum" performance? :confused:
 
zenpeace69 said:
I'm sorry if this is a really dumb question, but what is "line level?"
Benny broke it down really nicely.

Just to avoid any possible confusion for newbies, when Benny talks about the amplifier needed by microphones, this amplifier is what is referred to as the "preamp", or in slang, "mic pre". Not to be confused with any other kind of power amplifier.

On a more pragmatic level, most, if not all, of your gear in your signal chain that has visual meters marked on a "VU" scale will have these meters calibrated for 0VU to represent line level. There are exceptions (e.g. some tape machines, some consumer or communications gear), but for the most part, the meat of the signal chain meters should be calibrated this way.

This means, simply, that your chain usually works the most efficiently if you keep your meters bouncing somewhere around the 0VU mark. Again, there can be some exceptions; sometimes one may like that "saturation" sound botten by pushing a preamp just a couple of dB too hot, other times some gear just does not sound as good if pushed too hard and may actually sound better and cleaner a couple of dB low. But it'll take some practice and expirimentation to learn the individual personalities of the different pieces in your chain in this way. In the meantime, in general, you can get a great signal path keeping the level at line level (near 0VU on the metering) all the way through.

Untill you cross over to digital via your converter(s). Then the system is designed so as line level converts to somewhre in the mid-negative teens on the digital dBFS metering scale. Typically this conversion level is from line level in analog to -18dBFS in digital, but there are some converters that may approach -14dBFS on the digital outs.

This level may seem low, but on a 24-bit digital recording, this is quite normal and servicable, and is how it should be. Hence the zero/unity gain setting on the digital input; no need or desire to boost the digital signal.

G.
 
But an Audio Buddy for example doesn't have a VU meter. It just has 2 LEDs by the gain knob..."CLIP" (pretty obvious what this one is for), and "SIG".

Don't know what "SIG" is for.

Not sure how to tell if it's at line level...:confused:

Edit: also, since I record at 16-bit (Audition doesn't let you record in 24-bit), should I still bother trying to record at line level? Or is this mainly for 24-bit?
 
your microphone signal is going to always be brought up to line level if you use a preamp. You have no control over that...you HAVE to have it at line level to work with it. You just need to turn the gain up on the preamp to get a strong enough line level signal to work with. You don't want it to be too soft that your mixes turn out too quiet...and you don't want it too loud where you ruin the sound of your recording. Like Glen said, most of the time you'll want to bring the signal in at around -18dBFS to -14dBFS...you'll be fine if you just follow that.

The "SIG" LED is just telling you that it's receiving an incoming signal.
 
Ok, I guess my question was how I do know what the best level of gain is for the preamp before it starts effecting the sound quality ("saturation?")

Because I could record with low gain and record right up to the mic and reach a level of -18 on my DAW.

Or, I could also turn the gain up real high and record far away and reach a level of -18, but the sound wouldn't be as good because the gain is up too high...

I guess the best way is to keep the gain as low as possible and still reach -18db?
 
bennychico11 said:
there are three main types of analog signals:
microphone level
line level
and instrument level
(you could also say there was a fourth...the signal level used to drive a speaker after the power amp)

microphone signals are very weak signals and we have to use an amplifier to make the weak signal stronger in order to manipulate it. The amplifier brings this signal up to a level we call "line level." This is the typical signal you'll use with CD player outputs, TVs, DVDs, mixer outputs, etc. These units are already at line level. The two most commonly used reference for line level are +4dBu ("professional") and -10dBV ("consumer")


Thanks for clarifying.
 
solo.guitar said:
But an Audio Buddy for example doesn't have a VU meter. It just has 2 LEDs by the gain knob..."CLIP" (pretty obvious what this one is for), and "SIG".
I'd imagine - at least hope - that your Buddy's manual had something to say about setting levels. If not, I'd say that if you dial the pre up until it's just barely clipping on the biggest peaks and then dial it back down from there just a couple of dBs, you're probably pretty close to where your Buddy wants to be. Of course use your ears as well; listen closely for any hashness that may come in at higher volumes. If it comes in well before the clip light wakes up, then keep the gain below that harshness level (assuming the harshness is unwanted, of course.)
solo.guitar said:
Ok, I guess my question was how I do know what the best level of gain is for the preamp before it starts effecting the sound quality ("saturation?")
I think you kind of answer your own question. If it's affecting the sound quality, you should hear that as affecting the sound qualiy. :)

Levels aren't an end to themselves, they are only a means to achieving a further goal: good quality sound. Metering and general rules are both very important, but neither one overrides your ears. Blinking lights and dancing meters are handy and useful, but if they are telling you everything is okey dokey while your ears are telling you there's something wrong, go with your ears.

With a little practice and experimentation you'll learn the "personality" of your Buddy and what it likes and doesn't like as far as gain levels and such. Before you know it you'll be keeping the signal as hot enough to sound sweet without either clipping or distorting just as easy as keeping a car on the road and out of the ditches.

G.
 
Massive Master said:
Most definitely do NOT pay attention to that one -

John, tell me you are not so stupid that you don't understand what he meant!

It is actually excellent advice! The sooner in the signal chain you get your level, the better.
 
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